Caligula

I don't think they want to phase mana potions out of the raid game.

As a shadow priest, I can safely say that I use approximately 50-75% less mana potions than I did pre 2.3. I've had the same 5 stacks of felweed and dreaming glory in my herb bag since the patch and I'm not through them yet. Before the patch I'd go through at least 10 if not 15 a night depending on the instance. This is huge. Spirit is definitely a good stat to have as a shadow priest now, as it improves not only damage, but it significantly improves longevity.

To quote a post from the shadow priest thread.

With the proper group setup and a couple of shadow priests, mana doesn't really seem to be a problem in raids anymore.

 

Nezralix

I guess I don't entirely understand why the change to spirit would help shadow priests that much. Spirit is still worse than mp5 in most cases where you're chain-casting, which is pretty much all the time as a DPS class.

As far as I know, mana has never been an issue for any class when two shadow priests are in the group.

If Blizzard is going to keep mana potions in the game, then they need to do something to make them reactionary rather than precautionary for groups without shadow priests. They're making steps to make them less of a tax on mana-using DPS classes, and that's important. For healing classes, mana usage is far more variable, especially if a healer or two dies or a bunch of people step into some nasty AoE damage. Logically, as long as mana potions remain an option, then healers who want to be prepared for adverse scenarios still need to be chugging potions way before they know whether they'll need them. Even if they're not necessary in a large percentage of times, and even if the raid could easily get by without them. It's just one of those things where the benefit is still so large that very for a min-maxing player to avoid them and not feel that they should be.

They're taking quite a number of steps to improve mana regeneration models, so realistically, it shouldn't be that far-fetched to think that at some point they could just change them in a way that they're no longer useful in a chain-chugging fashion, and not have the game come crashing down around them as a result. Some players might get a bit more conservative in their cycles and approach, and that would be the extent of the ramifications. If it's not a goal they're shooting for, then it should be.

 

Gadz

This is very true. Before 2.3 I could consume 15 mana potions a night very easily. Since 2.3 I use about 2 in a full BT/Hyjal clear. Assuming some T6 gear and being in a shaman's group, spriests are extremely close to infinite mana already. I know that casters who are unfortunate enough to be left out of a spriest group are still forced to chug, but spriests at the high end have nothing to complain about anymore.

 

Caligula

Because we have a talent that allows for 30% of our out of combat spirit regen to continue while casting. In 2.3 this was buffed (it used to be 15%).

I meant a raid group. Give the shadow priest to a group of healers, and the other to mages and some other mana using DPS and I don't think you'll find anyone running OOM. Especially if you swap people around mid fight if things go sour, mana-wise.

I also don't think you really understood my post completely. With these new changes we're approaching infinite mana, especially at the t6 gear level. Hell, it might even be worth reexamining t4 and t5 and the effect of another 100 spirit (from those sets) on longevity in the lower tier instances vs the higher damage of FSW + Spellstrike. I bet we'd find that in longer fights, t5 and maybe even t4 would result in higher sustained dps or at least a large drop in mana potion usage, allowing for other, more fight-appropriate (resistance, health, whatever) potion consumption.

I do agree that they seem to be addressing the "chain-chugging" theory of some classes, and it seems to be effective. Shaman gained an extra, what 50+ mp/5 between the mana spring totem and water shield changes? Druids, priests and mages gained an extra 15% buff on their "regen while casting"-style talents. Raids that use ret paladins should have a much easier time keeping up JoW now. It all adds up.

 

Copernicus

We're still working on the rotating aspect. Who handles it etc is complicated, mostly because of the clucky raid interface window... and I think it can't be hotkeyed for combat. The main difference from 2.2 -> 2.3 is that the mages aren't arcane anymore, so that we don't need a shadow priest for more than 25-50% of the time to keep potion cooldowns available.

For some reason I thought there was a thread about rotating characters around in raids to take advantage of group buffs, but I can't find one. It might be worth it's own topic.

 

andastra

The mage changes in 2.3 really did not do anything to mana regen directly for most mages. You need 18 points in arcane for arcane meditation and the arcane tree was gutted in that patch. The improvement came because mages switched from arcane to either fire or frost. Fire/frost have smaller mana pools and lower mana regen than arcane but are more efficient so they are able to better leverage the mana regeneration from shadow priests.

Unfortunately, mage dps is still pretty low compated to other classes so I assume most mages will be ditching clearcasting in 2.3.2 for icy veins. The mana gem change and dropping clearcasting will most likely just cancel each other out.

It still doesn't remove the problem of having a shadow priest versus not having one. In a 4-5 minute Gorefiend fight, I still have mana left without using gems/pots/evocation if I have a shadow priest. Without a shadow priest, I need 3 gems, evocation and 2-3 super mana pot equivalents or I'll be out of mana.

 

Uglesh

Maybe as a non-mana user I'm out to lunch here, but is infinate mana really a goal they should aim for?? I tend to think not. Infinite mana only serves to pander to lesser quality players who don't understand the mechanics involved. While there are some classes that really needed some improvements, I can't see why any player should be able to spam chain-cast indefinately. All I can see coming from this is even shorter annoying boss enrage timers because raid DPS is too strong.

My feeling is that the better mechanic for regen tweaking would be improving the synergy of classes in a raid. Shadow priests are great, but why not allow other classes to provide a better mana stream too (hunter sting/ret pally/shaman totems). This will help raid wide mana as opposed to the 1-2 groups that may have a Shadow Priest.

I just really fear this is another step towards "Diablo-style" gaming. MMO's are supposed to reward teamwork over personal ability.

 

Caligula

I hate to say it but, the solution is, bring a shadow priest and put them in your group. We're a necessary class/spec in raiding now. I mean, you wouldn't hear people say "Damn, we have such a hard time on lurker since we have to dedicate 3 tanks to the adds because we don't bring a mage" or "Wow, tidewalker is tough with no mages to frost nova or aoe". People bring mages to raids. People bring shadow priests. That's how the game has evolved. We're a necessity now, just like a mage. As a mage, you should be getting the shadow priest first, especially if your spec isn't arcane. However, blizzard did leave the option for you to spec arcane and cut your mana issues way down even if it's not the highest dps spec. High dps with fire comes at the cost of mana regen. Even as a backup you could have a resto shaman and be just as effective in most cases. Mana tide + mana spring is huge mana returns these days, not to mention the spell damage and heroisms.

Edit: I agree with Uglesh here. We shouldn't ever have "infinite mana". That would be a huge change to a very core mechanic of this game. I think they've reached a state currently where mana regen and potting is at a good balance. To give all classes access to infinite mana pretty much destroys the basic foundation of the game and would require some pretty big changes that I believe would leave almost every player unhappy at best.

 

• Playered

The thing is, mana should limit you from going balls to the wall all the time, however you should be able to perform normally for a fair amount of time without being forced to constantly pot up to even contemplate doing it.
Not only this but it means you cant be stupid with your spells, if your 6k HT is only going to heal your target for 1000 then your better off stopping it and saving 800 mana, if you had unlimited mana then you could essentially spam those spells constantly without second thought... which removes any form of skill.

I dont think Blizz have ever properly thought out mana and how they want it to pan out.

Downranking is still used by healers because the extra mana cost for the base heal increment is not worth it by miles, the only way to fix it would be having each rank giving a weaker % co-efficient tailored to each spell, enough to make up for the mana efficiency issue.

 

Copernicus

Err, Arcane spec is the most mana-hungry spec. Fire/Frost are very effecient DPM. Mages were highest priority on shadow priests in 2.2 because we were all Arcane spec spamming hasted spells (which ate up our MPS). Now, that's less true- a fire/frost mage can survive on their own for some amount of time, but will still run OOM.


My main complaint right now is that the difference between having a shadow priest and not having one is huge. I will require at least a chunk of shadow priest regeneration in most fights, because I'm tapped out at the five minute mark. But now, if I get a shadow priest I can't run out of mana. So the situation has changed to one where the optimal goal is to swap individual players in and out of a shadow priest group so that as many people as possible can benefit from it. Which is clunky at best.

 

Caligula

Aren't they changing the mana gems to have charges? Wont that help a bit?

I agree that the group swapping interface is pretty clunky and definitely needs some love.

 

andastra

Yup, arcane is the least mana efficient spec. The problem with mages and shadow priests is that the difference is just too large. If there's an encounter where the healers need your shadow priests, you are better off benching every single mage you have. It's one of the reasons (aside from fel rage) that my guild goes 1 mage for Bloodboil.

And as I said above, the mana gem change will help quite a bit. Unfortunately, our dps is still quite low so it's more of a chance to drop clearcasting in favor of icy veins (roughly 2-3% dps increase depending on spec) rather than decreasing our dependence on shadow priests.

 

Nezralix

There seems to be this idea that getting rid of mana potions is equivalent to infinite mana. It's not. They're totally separate issues. In fact, if anything, the existence of mana potions is preventing Blizzard from really striking out a good system for mana management. Giving every class the potential for 140 mp5 is doing nothing but alleviating the need for strong regen mechanics. I believe the mistake that many people who consider this topic make is thinking that Blizzard will make all classes self-sufficient *and* that mana potions will still remain an option, thus enabling the chain-chugging "power gamers" to have *really* infinite mana. Not the case. Any solution that Blizzard arrives at must take the benefit of chain-chugging all but completely away (the best solution that I've seen is turning them into a 30-second Last Stand sort of effect, such that you can either use them in a *real* emergency or you can try to make extremely questionable gameplay decisions to try to take advantage of that window).

There *should* be some playstyle accommodations in the name of long term mana efficiency, and an alternate playstyle for more bursty damage. If it's some sort of Evocation or Life Tap thing where the cost is less time spent casting, then that's an option. If it involves a minor downranking of spells when using poor gear, then that could work too, and thus raids that are very well-constructed for mana regeneration will be able to achieve a small benefit from upranking, or from getting the ability to use the more mana-inefficient spells, like a mage working fire blast into a rotation.

One way or another, it looks like they're relatively close to being able to remove mana potions, and it's completely a result of flawed game mechanics that they've persisted in popularity for so long. They should take the hard line and force themselves to come up with a model that stands on its own two feet, because any workaround that retains the massive mana income of potion chain-chugging is going to be substantially flawed (i.e. either still strongly encourages chugging, or gives infinite mana to players who do). And I'm going to kick a puppy if they add *another* stupid way for getting *another* stupid type of mana potion.

 

Vandermonde

You should wait 'till 2.4. I hear they're adding a puppy-kicking daily that hands out mana pots.

 

Mideci

Well, hmm, as a shadow priest I'm as "broken" as the mages, except I'm not really sympathetic. First of all, in Tier 4/5 gear, I'm out of mana several minutes into the fight unless I chain use mana pots. It's a lot better since 2.3, but then our dps overall has gotten better too. Shorter fights = fewer mana pots. (Nevermind the fact that higher overall dps lets me do things that would normally make no sense like equipping the Earring of Soulful Meditation in place of the Blessings Deck on fights with DPS breaks.)

Fact is you being "forced" to spend 18 points in care is much like me being forced to spend 14 pts in discipline. I get to take a collection of fairly useless raid talents so I can have some mana regen and in return I can't collect every useful shadow talent and / or I can't collect the basic healing talents to be useful as a healer (Divine Fury, Improved Renew, the 15% mana discount heal talent). Choices, choices.

I actually think it's a serious mistake to allow for people to have inifnite mana the same way it was a brief mistake to allow fury warriors to generate obscene amounts of rage pre-BC. There needs to be a cap on how much you can use your abilities and for nearly all classes there is. Mages can't afford to use their highest mana nukes every single second? Well, rogues wait on energy, warriors wait on rage, warlocks are constrained by shard requirements and lifetaps, etc. etc. Why should mages not be forced to make a choice? Never mind that the mana gem change -- like the real option to take arcane med to 30% -- is another gigantic buff to the amount of available mana.

As for shadowpriests, I'd say that cutting the shadowfiend cooldown down by 30 seconds for every point spent in Misery would acceptably fix the mana issues there. It'd greatly reduce the potion requirements without eliminating them entirely for sloppy play. I don't play a hunter but it sounds like some multiple of their in-combat mana regeneration would work to clear that up.

The need for a mana potion should be based on fight length and effiiciency of use of existing mana. It should also be something that no fight requires more than 1 use of.

 

Gadz

I honestly don't think there is a problem with mana regen right now.

If you are a mage/shaman you aren't going to be able to perform at your absolute best without a spriest, but thats part of the reason spriests exist. If no one needed to chain pot then the reason to bring more then 1 spriest is nonexistent. As for the spriests themselves, yes it is unfortunate that you have to chain pot pre-T6. Part of the benefit of getting T6 is that you don't have to anymore, so look forward to it.

People complain about having to chain pot to play their class and then other people complain about infinite mana. I think the tweaking in 2.3 has really made the situation much better. Reducing the amount of mana pots needed by T4/5 players and rewarding T6 with mana regen high enough so they don't have to chug.

 

Nezralix

What you're saying here doesn't seem very consistent. Is a shadow priest just a method for saving money? If all they do, then there might as well be another class that does nothing but repair everyone's gear at a discount. It's a silly concept.

 

Gadz

Assuming that even chain potting is not enough for certain classes and specs to perform the way they would like to. I should have phrased that differently.

Like you said though, spriests do also save other classes money. That is not a good enough reason alone to bring them however.

 

◊ Kyth

I'd be unhappy if they were removed since, as a destruction lock, I consume mana and lifetap (a) is a significant (~15%) dps loss and (b) can't always be used, especially in high-damage raid environments.

And (c) since locks *can* take a 15% dps hit to regen mana, they rarely get support like spriests, so I don't have that as an option (unless we're running light on mages that day.)

I chug rejuv pots every 2 minutes on any fight that matters.

 

Mikari

I agree that the Mage changes are pretty nice, they basically get multiple free super mana potions per fight, but the Hunter changes make basically no difference, Aspect of the Viper will still be used as a last resort when every other means of gaining mana is exhausted.

 

Nezralix

Well, like it or not, these are the sorts of things that I think mana regeneration models need to include. An option for greater mana longevity at the expense of a relatively small amount of DPS. With no mana potions as a crutch.

 

Osse

No other class needs to make a choice of losing another ability in order to gain more mana.

5% chance nets 13-15 mp5 when you're below 25% mana. It's only really a tiny pvp buff.

Also, I dont know if 160-175 dps is considered as 'relatively small'.

 

◊ Rob

Warlocks. Lifetapping not only forces you to make a tradeoff in terms of what abilities you are using (the GCD it takes to Lifetap could have been used to refresh a DoT or cast a SB), but also forces you to make a health/mana tradeoff. Evocation similarly takes you out of the action for 8 seconds (thus lowering your DPS), although it doesn't require you to make as significant a tradeoff.
Probably not, but realize that warlocks are dealing with the same tradeoff. (The warlock above said that lifetapping for mana causes him to drop about 15% of his DPS; in other words, as long as he's doing 1100 DPS he's losing more than you are by switching to AotV.)

 

Vihermaali

As a raiding holy priest (who pretty much needs only 3-4 more items from hyjal/BT) I still can run out of mana, if I start healing however I want. That is, with a shadowpriest, totems and full blessings (kings, salvation, wisdom) AND drinking a super mana / mad alchemist pot every 2 minutes plus wasting shadowfiend.

Ways to go run out of mana:
Spam greater heal
Spam flash heal
Spam prayer of healing
Spam circle of healing
Spam <instert healing spell>

For me mana-regen is not a broken mechanic. Its just that after 2,5 years of being a heal spec pve priest I've learned to cheat "mana regen mechanics" so well. It still limits my ability to heal.

I always get the feeling that anyone who says they have infinite mana just isn't trying hard enough. I admit this may be a biased point of view since only class I have pretty much ever played if this priest. But if it's a healing priest telling me he doesn't run out of mana I know he lied straight to my face.

 

PSGarak

Warlocks can be said to have the best regen model in that they have other options than slamming pots to make up the mana they need to sustain themselves. However, as has been mentioned, it comes at a cost. This means that chain-potting for a warlock isn't "necessary" in that they can perform their task without it (unlike, say, spriests or healers), but once again consumables allow them to gain a little extra push.

Is this a good model for regen mechanics as a whole? Inifinite mana is available within class mechanics, at the cost of DPS (in this case). Chain-potting is an option but not a requirement. As far as solutions go I think it's an excellent one: you blow consumables on hard or new content, and you can slack at, say, 90% effectiveness for farm content and save cash.

As it turns out, this sort of tradeoff is available to some other classes to greater or lesser extents: Mages of some specs can revert from a cheaper nuke to AB spam for bigger dps, and hunters have aspect of the viper, mutually exclusive with an AP buff. For some reason, it's more common and acceptable for a warlock to make this sort of tradeoff of consumables versus efficacy; I don't know why 90% of warlocks say yes and 90% of hunters say no to a qualitatively similar decision.
Maybe it's just a quantitatively bigger tradeoff. I haven't run the numbers on what pot regen means to a warlock, but our spells are less efficient so perhaps chain-potting doesn't add as much for us as it does for most classes.

The problem with such a model is that it's hard to extend to healers. Healing is an all-or-nothing affair: the tank lives or he doesn't. I don't have any idea how to have a sliding-scale efficacy ability, other than perhaps downranking.

Also, for what it's worth, melee dps does have a situation that is somewhat similar to the warlock one: if they want to get that extra dps they can chain-chug haste pots or something similar. I don't know if it's quantitatively comparable, but the general principle remains: blow consumables for a non-necessary dps increase.

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