I agree that AotV is nice in theory but I'm not sure about it in practice. Mages can switch from molten to mage armor as well but the costs are way more than switching from hawk to viper. At around 300+ spirit fully raid buffed, it will take me a minute of casting before mage armor gets back its mana cost. I can stop casting and regen faster but if I have to, it makes no sense to switch to mage armor in the first place.

Use rank 1 mage armor. It gets back the cost in less than half a minute. As 43/18 frost/arc, I was getting 70ish mana per tick, so it was quicker than that.

I have a macro with the default cast being rank 1 for when I use the keybind, and max rank for resistances if I go through the trouble of right-clicking the button.

It would probably be pretty easy for Blizzard to fix Hunter mana issues if they stopped focusing on Aspect of the Viper. They could just change Go For The Throat to also return 50 mana to the hunter every time they crit, they already have the mechanic programmed for it since T3 had a similar set bonus.

Though even unlinking Quick Shots from Aspect of the Hawk would make using Aspect of the Viper more desirable, since the main issue with not using Hawk isn't the RAP bonus but also the fact that we lose 5 talent points, if Quick Shots could proc using any aspect it would be much better.

Well, now that we're on the hunter side of mana regeneration, I thought it'd be nice to clear some things up.
Firstly, check the Survival tree for Thrill of the Hunt. It pretty much does just that.
Secondly, Aspect of the Viper is NOT going to be desirable even if they unlink Quick shots. The reason for this is that it's not actually a flat 50% Intellect regeneration, despite what the tool tip says. Its efficiency is far greater when the mana pool is closer to 0. You gain less mp5 at 95% of your mana bar and more at 5%. There are posts about the exact formula somewhere around, I'll look around and link them.
Thirdly, even specced for Thrill of the Hunt, grouped with a shadow priest, using mana oil(s) and Fel Mana (or SMP when Fel isn't on AH) and [Dark Rune]/[Night Dragon's Breath] on every cooldown, I still end a fight OOM, while having no problems half way through it. Why? Because of mana management. Even without FD drink, which was mostly bull anyway, there are ways to get some more mana back. Viper a 20%. Bandage and get out of casting mode. Move around and get out of casting mode while avoiding random fight elements (Arcane Orbs, Death and Decay, Flame patch, etc.../0 5 seconds more won't kill you, and you'll get more mana to sustain you. But the less time less in the fight, the faster you want to burn your mana.

Now, on to the topic at hand. Of course, I'm pretty upset about having to farm/buy mana pots, and run Scholo for [Dark Rune] or Felwood for Dragons/[Demonic Rune] just to be able to maintain my dps during a fight. I still think mana regeneration is flawed, as consumables are a must, rather than an edge. However, buffing Spirit is not the way to go. Personally, and I know this sounds weird, stamina would be the best stat to govern mana regeneration. Why? Because everyone will eventually get larger values, everyone benefits from it, and it stands for endurance. Mana regeneration is a form of endurance

As a note for non-hunters, a typical raiding hunter will have 80-100 spirit. That's around 80-90 mp5 our of casting mode, and 0 while casting. Hunter mana regen comes from two sources: mp5 on gear and Aspect of the Viper, which restores mana as a % (55% at the moment, I think) of the total Intellect. Also, a deep, 30+ Survival 3 point talent restoeres 40% of the mana cost of every shot that critically strikes. However, due to it being a high level talent and not affecting Auto Shot criticals, I do not feel it accounts for a significant mechanic of the class.

The benefit of chain chugging super mana pots is roughly 140 mp5, which is huge. It's two pre-nerf flasks of mighty restoration piled on top of each other. The benefit of chain chugging haste pots is about 50 passive haste rating; destruction potions are about 15 passive spell damage, 0.25 spell crit. Chain chugging haste/destro pots through a whole fight gives you the benefit of maybe one elixir.

You can't shift the burden of pot-chugging from healers to non-mana-capped DPS by just telling the DPS to chug more haste/destruction pots, because haste/destruction pots simply aren't as good as super mana pots. The DPS difference between a raid where all the DPS chug haste/destruction pots and one where they don't won't be enough to make up for the loss of one full DPS player, or enough to allow healers to go significantly lighter on mana pots.

I guess you could shift the burden to the DPS by just telling them to play better, but then you're trading fewer consumables for more wipes, which isn't exactly a competitive strategy.

If you wanna talk about that as a problem, cool, but let's not pretend that raid leaders invented chain chugging supers just so everyone else could slack off at the healers' expense.

Posting here since it seems to be most relevant; Does anyone know why Blizzard put in the 5sec rule to begin with? It seems to me that if they removed that and deleted the "MP5 stat" from all gear that spirit could be made useful for every class (assuming they altered the 2.4 int+spirit regen formula).

On the PTR I don't even innervate priests/druids anymore, pretty much Paladins and to a lesser extent Shaman and that is with only 30% regen while casting for those 2 classes.

Originally, with 100% regen, it was possible to 3-man BRD with two healers and a warrior (or better yet, a warrior and a paladin) due to the rate at which mana regenerated (not to mention the enormous amount of in-combat health regen the warrior got from spirit). The other little bonus spirit gave was an increase in weapon procs. That also got taken away, tragically.

While under the effects of innervate you are exempt from the FSR. Do you not mean you innervate them despite their lousy spirit?

Yes. Priests/Druids are not close to needing innervates from Feral Druids on the PTR.

I suspect he means that even with 30% regen while casting, innervates on Druids/Priests are a waste due to the lack of need, meaning that if the 5 second rule were to be removed, the regeneration would have to be lowered compared to the current OO5SR regeneration.

The discussion regarding Life Tap, spirit regeneration, mana potions, etc. suggest that mana regeneration is clearly not a solved topic. With the current model of regeneration, it doesn't seem likely that it ever will be, largely owing to the fact that the mana costs associated with skills is one of very few truly non-scaling items in the entire game (and incidentally, the primary issue that often drives me away from my various mana-using characters). So, I'm going to identify some reasons why I think it might be time for Blizzard to reevaluate how mana regeneration works in WoW (even though it admittedly works "pretty well"!). If I'm wrong, then please elaborate why you think so.

First, I'll state what I see mana representing. It's a large pool of resources that is expected to last at least a couple of minutes, and when you're out of it (like really out of it, with no special options for recouping more), you're severely crippled, if not entirely useless (this generally holds true for most classes, although they vary in what options are available to regenerate from a mana-less state). Contrarily, a rogue's energy bar is very commonly consumed in a matter of seconds, but then will regenerate in only (and exactly) ten seconds (or predictably faster, with Adrenaline Rush or Combat Potency).

What do we, as players, expect out of it? Well, we expect it to be sufficient for using the skills available to us in all situations we choose to engage in, whether it be PvP (arenas or other small group), small group PvE (i.e. 2-3 minute boss encounters), and large group PvE (raid encounters lasting up to 10 minutes). We expect it to not be overly penalizing on our skill use, such that it potentially puts mana-users at a disadvantage against non-mana-users. We expect maintenance of our mana pool to not require overly taxing on our attention, and that it won't overwhelm our ability to focus on the environment. We expect that it shouldn't require overly complex circumstances or group compositions to use it. We might also expect that its upkeep shouldn't demand consumable use.

What does Blizzard expect out of it? Their requirements are certainly much different. They want players to have some incentive to conserve mana; they don't want it to be an infinite resource (at which point it fails to become a resource at all). They want players to have meaningful decisions revolving around the use of mana. They want it to be flexible enough to expand from 2-minute 5-man boss fights to 10-minute 25-man boss fights without entirely breaking down, or requiring special rules. They also don't particularly want it to be a hassle to users, because all things being equal, they'd prefer that players have fun playing the game! Given, of course, that the entertainment factor doesn't conflict with other higher priorities (i.e. conceding to infinite mana in all situations).

So what are the primary failures of mana in the present game?

To start, its role remain inconsistent between classes.

For healers, for whom the demand for casting healing spells is largely variable, extra mana regeneration equates to more healing spells casted, and thus more healing done, and potentially more leeway to overheal without running dry on mana. Given that damage done is generally increasing in both PvE and PvP content, on the face of it this sounds like a good thing, and is fairly intuitive. Moreover, it provides developers with an extra set of stats to attach to equipment.

For DPS classes, this conceptual intuitiveness does not exist. The typical DPS rotation is fairly static; to exclude some skills would often have a significantly detrimental effect on damage output, which is a tradeoff that does not present itself to non-mana-using DPS classes. Downranking may be an option, but again, it can be a major loss in potential damage over and beyond mediocre or poor equipment. While gear may offer better mana regeneration through stats, this generally isn't enough, and contradicts with the desire of the player to optimize damage (particularly when alternatives exist, like chain-chugging mana potions, or getting into a different group composition). It becomes a somewhat awkward scenario where insufficient mana regeneration is a double penalty on poor gear, given that the length of fights does not generally trend upward with content, nor would players want them to (a raid instance full of 20-minute boss encounters is an unpleasant prospect). So in effect, mana regeneration from gear is doing very little but potentially enabling DPS classes to downrank less, or consume fewer potions, as the skill rotation and mana cost per-skill is not changing. Clearly, this does not constitute a meaningful decision.

Beyond that, DPS classes don't really even have a consistent method of regenerating mana between them. The various models associated with that task differ widely, and with varying degrees of success. Mages are given tools that make them largely self-sufficient (although with slightly awkward tradeoffs); warlocks were given those tools as well (although, again, with some caveats). Hunters have Aspect of the Viper, which is regarded as insufficient. Elemental Shamans and Retribution paladins are still basically stuck without many tools, and Protection paladins are put in an extremely awkward spot with regard to longevity. And of course, shadow priests are given no help at all, except their ability to return mana from damage.

And this leads into the next glaring issue with mana regeneration: The effects of scaling mana return mechanisms. Vampiric Embrace, (2.3) Life Tap and Shamanistic Rage are all examples of skills that are returning mana on factors that increase much faster than the size of mana pools, and which ultimately present a sliding window of mana use and conservation that's essentially impossible to balance with gear progression. With the and gear mana cost progression Blizzard used in the transition from WoW 1.0 to 2.0, it's abundantly clear that mana will be trivialized in moving from TBC to WotLK; it's entirely possible that anyone in a shadow priest group (including the shadow priest) will basically enjoy limitless mana, thus nullifying Blizzard's goals towards that end. In fact, the same issue may exist even from basic regeneration stats on equipment outpacing the average pace of spending mana, so it's fairly clear that something will have to change with regard to skill cost and downranking in WotLK; exactly what those changes will be is what's up for debate.

Blizzard's solutions to the mana problem have been most certainly not resolved the issues, or in some cases have not even attempted to resolve the issues. The basic problem, of course, is that mana regeneration was extremely restricted for quite some time after launch, and changes since then have largely been aimed at giving more mana to classes that needed more mana at some point in time in some aspect of the game, in a somewhat piecemeal direction, and the sometimes-bizarre itemization directions have demonstrated that (consider the mana regeneration situation on PvP equipment, or mp5 attached to Enhancement Shaman / Retribution Paladin / hunter equipment). Even the classes with a relatively consistent mana regeneration model still very often are dominated by players who choose to forsake that model in favor of mana potion chain-chugging; Blizzard has yet to identify exactly what they expect the role of mana potions to be, if not a tax on mana-using classes. They have also not suggested whether they intend for mana to be a non-issue for players beyond a certain level of gear, or really what decisions they expect players to make regarding the rate of mana expenditure. It’s quite clear that the system of mana use that exists in WoW today is a result of the game that was designed up to and including participation in 5-man dungeons in WoW1.0, which did not translate particularly well to raid situations or scaling equipment, and now exists as a colorful patchwork of minor changes that didn’t really hit the core issue.

So it’s probably about time to start talking about models that will scale more appropriately, possibly involving scaling mana costs with mana pools, faster mana use along with faster mana regeneration, more distinction between high-cost and low-cost skills, or any number of other possibilities that try to avoid some of the major pitfalls of being a mana-user in WoW2.0.

Thanks for your input; I think you touched on an important insight with the unified resource concept. I think the notion of rogue energy is far preferable in a lot of ways, exactly because it's an enabler, and also because it *requires* real decisions on how to use that energy *at a given point in time*. With mana being quite the opposite, especially now that it's become a "very long term planning" sort of mechanism.

It's clear enough to me that Blizzard has essentially backed themselves into a corner, as far as mana longevity goes. They've relied on mana potions to achieve some semblance of viability for mana-using DPS classes, but then have applied regeneration stats to gear in such a way that healing classes approach infinite mana with said high level gear. They can certainly attempt to make fights more healing intensive and longer in an attempt to try to run mana pools down faster, but even that will only go so far before fights get uncomfortably long and stressfully busy, and then beyond that it becomes literally impossible to run out of mana. It's almost a different game for healers in greens vs. healers in high level epics. Similarly for warlocks, enhancement shamans, and shadow priests, whose mana situation changes quite substantially as gear improves. There's no particularly good reason why this part of the picture should be so different for players in greens vs. Tier 6.

As you say, they're not going to change mana into energy, but they could do well to make it significantly more energy-like. They should give all classes the tools to be largely self-sufficient with *some* trade-off, eliminate the option of mana potions, and bring the low end and high end together.

To that end, here are some brief comments I made while brainstorming ideas for different schemes, to someone who asked me after reading this why someone wouldn't just kill their mana pool if mana skill costs were changed to be some percentage of the total mana pool:

You're right that having spells cost a certain percentage of the mana pool would enable players to just skimp on INT and stack mp5. But you're also assuming that INT and MP5 exist at all in an alternative form of mana. Imagine instead that are no mana numbers associated with your mana pool; imagine that it goes from 0% to 100%, as energy or rage do. Obviously, "mana per 5 seconds" would be meaningless, gone. So imagine then that INT is modified accordingly, so that it increases the percentage of your pool that regenerates every two seconds. You establish a cap on the increase, so that at most a player can regenerate mana twice as fast, but even in very high quality gear, a player only reaches maybe a 40% increase, and with raid synergies, perhaps up to 80%. By giving players a reasonable base regeneration in baseline quality gear (i.e. greens and some blues) you make them less of terrible liability, and improve their entertainment value as well as their contribution to a group, And you also don't leave DPS classes in a complete loss for mana. Additionally, INT could yield some fraction of spell damage or attack power, possibly through talents (a "moldable" stat that gains significance through specialization).

Alternatively, imagine a system where the mana cost of a spell is increased by the spell damage or healing of the player. That way, as a player acquires better gear, they also have an incentive to acquire better regeneration tools, so that the system roughly remains balanced as gear improves. Such a system would definitely have potential for abuse, but also doesn't result in an infinite mana scenario.

Yet another scenario could involve a mana regeneration model where, on the whole, while chain casting a standard damage spell, a player regains mana. However, there are high-cost spells mixed in that take a significant chunk of a mana pool away (Prayer of Healing? Blink? Chain Lightning?), but can't be casted constantly due to overall mana limitations. Or, while not casting anything, mana regenerates very fast, not unlike rogue energy. So your mana use actually involves planning, not unlike how a rogue chooses to use energy and combo points.

All of these could be elements of a revised system of mana use, and frankly, I think any of them could be an improvement over the current system of mana, which doesn't scale well and leaves many DPS classes chugging mana potions for longevity. Blizzard is going to have to revise it sooner or later, and my nagging suspicion is that they won't do it until the WoW sequel (or whatever next-gen MMO blizzard releases ends up being).

Anything they do will require significant tuning. The current system of mana use is the result of thousands of band-aids on broken foundation, so it at least works "pretty well".

I wonder if the game woudn't be better off if pots became an alchemist only item (and were nerfed a bit as well).

Then Blizz could design the game around class/talent based mana regen mechanics, I don't think anyone would miss farming pots...and alchemist would have someting special for them alone - the ability to use pots.

Alchemists woudln't be completely out in the cold, presumably elixirs/flasks would remain in general use but it seems to me it would be a more "normal" profession if this was done.

To elaborate a little bit on the problem that DPS classes tend to have (and healers to a slightly lesser extent), I've created a graph that compares mana regeneration vs. time spent casting. For example, if you find that you spend approximately 500 mana per 5 seconds doing a normal DPS rotation, then the time spent running through 10,000 mana is easy to calculate: [(10000/500)*5] = 100 seconds until your mana is gone. Your net rate of mana expenditure is 500 minus [accumulated mana regeneration]. So, assuming 10,000 mana and 500mp5 of base mana expense, I've graphed total time (in seconds) that you'd spend casting before going out of mana.



The takeaway from this hastily-made graph is that your time spent casting goes up exponentially, not linearly, with mana regeneration from gear or buffs. Until the point where you're spending infinitely long casting because you can't spend mana fast enough.

Which is definitely going to be the case in WotLK if they transition like they did from 1.0->2.0.

It's a pretty impossible situation to balance.

It's pretty risky. If they're still very useful, then you're essentially forcing casters to become alchemists. If they're not useful, then what's the point of having them?

My entire claim here is that you can't make them undesirable to healers or DPS classes without essentially giving them infinite mana. It would be in Blizzard's best interests, from a balancing standpoint, to remove them from the equation.

But it's still only one aspect of what's wrong with regeneration.

Unless they jack up stamina and jack up how hard mobs hit forcing healers to use higher and more mana-costly ranks of heals. All of which they did in 2.0.

Wru Heal rank 2??

My thought would be it would give alchemist more flexibility in gemming, gear choices, etc than other professions. You can argue now that no one should be an alchemist, better to be an enchanter and get ring enchants.

If you got the mana regen or other buffs down to about that level it shouldn't be a problem - and balance the rest of the game around that.

Imagine if pots were alchemist only but had a 4-5 minute CD (and maybe juice up Destruction, etc appropriately). At a five minute CD chaining mana pots goes from (IIRC) 100 mp5 to 40 or so. You could just draw up a budget for the "unique" value of alchemy in terms of item level and have it roughly match what you get from other professions. So if you think ring enchants are the great value of enchanting they are worth like 24 spell power or so, make pot chaining worth about that much.

As a staunch potion advocate I have to say that any limitation or elimination of potions would be a sad day. Potions (like trinkets and other "use" items) provide a great unique way for designers to add temporary buffs or "oh shit" buttons. The possibilities are endless and I am never in favor of making the game a bland version so that everyone gets the same crap.

All this said, can we agree that even without Mana Potions most bleeding edge raiders would still chain chug some form of potion?? This eliminates the argument that mana potions are a tax and that by removing them you make people's lives somehow easier.

The question now boils down to why do people have to chain chug mana potions. As has been stated, their effect is very strong, especially relative to other potions that currently exist. But really is that the only reason?? Are we dealing with a chicken or egg argument?? Did instances become more mana intensive forcing people to chug or did the use of chain chugging and raid stacking DPS force Blizzard to design content to that end?

Sadly all the ideas being bantered about really amount to a complete overhaul which we know isn't likely at this point in the game's lifecycle.

There is no doubt that some tweaking needs to be done, and the changes in 2.4 will help (healers especially). Things aren't perfect but they are still stable and functional... and thats the most important part.

I think any guesses on future mechanics is a fools game. Who would have expected to trade your Teir epics for quest greens when you hit lvl61. This expansion may hold the same thing... maybe we see a new stat... maybe Mp5 disappears on gear in favor of more Int/Spi... anything is possible.

Lets face it... we will always have something to complain about... that's human nature. Everyone wants to do more, better and faster.

I would like to point out, this math is assuming that you're just standing and dpsing for a whole fight, which usually doesnt happen. Destruction Pots are good in the sense that the burst damage is good, for dps sustainability, they're not so god.

I'm a fan of the suggestion to make potions usable only once per combat. Or in other words, once a potion is used, it would be grayed out from any further use until the character exits combat again. The 2 minute cooldown would still remain of course.

With such a change, Blizzard would then have to up the strength of all the potions a bit, particularly haste and destruction pots. Mana pots too would then be used as they were originally intended, as a source of extra mana in emergencies, rather than chugging them every 2 minutes for an active "mp5." Caster regen should then be retuned so that classes that depended on chain chugging pots aren't left dry, and Blizzard could certainly do this with the upcoming spirit changes.

Haste and Destruction pots would then be used more like Bloodlusts, popped at a key moment in the encounter when burst damage is called for. Mana pots primarily for emergencies. I would also separate the potions into classes, so that using a mana potion doesn't block out the use of a health potion or a utility potion (haste, destruction, ironshield, etc.) in the same encounter. The global 2 minute cooldown on all pots would still remain though.

Blizzard could then distinguish the alchemy profession by allowing alchemists the use of soulbound "large vials" of potions which would have 2 or 3 charges that can be used per combat.

The spirit changes in no way benefits 2 healers. I dont see how revamping spirit helps the situation at all.

EDIT: Grammar ftl.

Even though that individual was missing the fact that all of the mana related mechanics would be changing... I pose the following question(s) in reply: "Why don't rogues have anything to increase their energy pool? And if they did, would rogues spend itemization on increasing their energy pool?" (I know there is a set bonus and maybe an item or two that adds 10 or 20 energy, i'm ignoring that at the moment) I think that 90% of end-game rogues would choose to sacrifice a bit of their agi/ap/crit/hit in favor of another 20-100 energy. I am sure the rogue theorycrafters on here would go wild the potential of a significant incease in energy. The same thing with mana using DPS classes. 90% of them would allow their mana pools to plumet in size (assuming no other mechnic changed), but they would still pay attention to it, as it is still a resource stat.


Precisely. In the game mechanics I am designing that I mentioned in my last post, I use the energy pool of the player as a inherent soft cap on any ability. I don't prevent them from cranking out massive ranks of a specific ability. By all means, take 15 ranks in Fireball at level 3. "Oh what's that? You only have the energy to cast a rank 5? And that leaves you dry, unable to do anything else until it regenerates. Interesting. I guess you spent points on 10 ranks you can't use for another 6 or so levels. Maybe you should have thought about that." If they spend some of those points on increasing their regen, then they could spam that rank 5 more often... or increase their total energy enough to cast a rank 7. It makes it very easy to become a powerful one-horse glass-cannon, but doing that caps you out in so many other ways it isn't worth it.

In Blizzard's trend towars high AoE damage fights, you can't do what I did with my mage upon hitting level 60, and successfully survive raid after raid in MC with 1800 health just so I could hold 350-400 spell damage.

I agree though, this is still just bantering about "what might have been, or what might be", and that Blizzard won't overhaul the system to this degree. I think most of us are just posting to vent some of our frustrations in the hope that a Blizzard developer with a head full of intution and good sense might read it and figure out a way to make a change in this direction without a massive disruption in every fight mechnic already built.