Its not a casual vs hardcore discussion. Its a matter of allowing for different play styles within the same game. This is the very essence of min/max. People out on the outer edge pushing content are willing to sacrifice more time to preparation. If it's not mana potions, then it will be something else on that cooldown. It's not punishing casual players... it's giving a small reward for people willing to put in the time.
What has potion stacking and/or chain chugging allowed?? I see it this way.... every "hard-core" guild didn't spend months farming Kara just so they could move to Gruul. They used consumables as a way to "make up" any gear gap they had. Tanks chugged ironshields... healers used mana pots. They COULD have waited until their gear came up to the level they didn't need to, but they were willing to put in the time for consumables. This has persisted to this very day.
Guilds that don't fully min/max will eventually get through the content, but it's just going to take longer. But why should people on the edge be punished because they can play more??
Mana isn't broken.... tweaking has provided more then enough benefit to mana users. More and more, Spriests, mana tide and innervate are being used on DPS groups. This alone shows me there isn't a problem. It's just that some people won't be happy until they either have unlimited mana or until everyone has to play the same bland vanilla game.
Resto shamans were never broken in the first place. They were toting 320-380 mp5 while casting before the 2.4 change so they didn't need to be 'fixed.' Paladins have NEVER been screwed on mana or mana regen, so I don't really see how anyone could possibly feel like they 'got the short end of the stick.'
The int/spirit regen change was a good thing and this thread really has turned into what sounds like a 'QQ, I'm too lazy to farm or buy mana potions so here's my idea' topic.
Well, this is precisely what I was saying, and I got my proverbial head bashed in. Glad at least some people agree.
I apologize if this has been suggested already (it's a rather long thread) but what if they changed mana potions so that they only work when you're out of mana and give you always a fixed amount? When you use a potion your mana goes from 0 to 4000, if you use it when you have 2000 it goes to 4000 anyway, if you have over 4k you can't use it at all. That sort of fixes the "I have to pot at the start of a fight" problem and makes it so you have to use them reactively.
I also like the suggestion of making potions only usable once until out of combat, or maybe just a 10 minute cooldown.
This alone shows me there isn't a problem. It's just that some people won't be happy until they either have unlimited mana or until everyone has to play the same bland vanilla game.
I can't believe that we're still going over this, 17 pages in the thread.
I don't think anybody wants unlimited mana. What they want is a mana regeneration model that doesn't involve mana potions. Mana potions, in their current form, are simply not an interesting mechanic; you're using them in hopes of achieving some benefit five minutes down the road. They're not active, and not fun, but still an important part of playing the game for a lot of classes.
Oddly enough, a lot of the positive feedback on mana potions has been from people saying that they're unnecessary because mana is effectively unlimited under current circumstances, so clearly there's something amiss with your statement.
My problem with the current regeneration mechanics as a priest is precisely that I do have unlimited mana. With an alchemist stone, buffed spirit regen, mana is simply not a concern (assuming I don't do something silly like chain-cast flash heal for an entire encounter). And this is without a shadow priest. This seems contrary to the intent of the mana bar - I would think it's supposed to constrain my choice of spells and impose a maximum limit on how long an encounter can be extended. Taking away mana potions would, I think, make it almost perfect for a priests - we have enough tricks we can use to play the 5sr to keep our mana up, but in a heavy damage environment we will slowly be overwhelmed if we can't pot. (Note: My experience as a healer runs only up to and including Illidan, so SWP may be another matter.)
Numerous other classes who did not benefit from the spirit changes would be completely broken without mana potions, however.
As a shadow priest I find myself in a similar position. Take away mana potions and I would have to adjust my spell selection according to the encounter (running a DoT-and-flay cycle on Council for example). With mana potions I just do the same full burn cycle everywhere and drink more or less pots depending on the length and number of mana burns I am subjected to.
Resto shamans were never broken in the first place. They were toting 320-380 mp5 while casting before the 2.4 change so they didn't need to be 'fixed.' Paladins have NEVER been screwed on mana or mana regen, so I don't really see how anyone could possibly feel like they 'got the short end of the stick.'
I agree that Resto Shaman problems were largely solved with the final incarnation of Water Shield. I do think that the budget value of mp5 should be revisited though, just given that it is now basically equal to spirit within 5sr; its cost should be reduced to compensate to allow more healing/crit/haste to appear on shaman items, seeing as how other casters are benefitting from spi/int/mp5 splits on their gear.
Paladins' problems however, stem from their traditional role as the longevity-healer. Their HPS output was balanced around their ability to cast FoL basically forever, and that balance is now totally out of whack with other healers now that tree druids, chain-heal-spamming shamans, and circle of healing priests can ALSO spam heals basically forever. A glance at any WWS will show the glaring discrepancy.
Then again, perhaps the death of the holy pally is long overdue; if we are finally getting to a point where one of each spec of pally is a viable raid comp, then great.
To reiterate what some people have said, and others missed: the problem with mana pots is *NOT* the expense. That's a strawman arguement. I can afford it, I still think they're stupid.
Here's the problem: of all the various ways to extend your mana supply to last as long as you need, mana potions are the most powerful, the least interesting, and take the least skill. A game mechanic that is, quite literally, "Push this button every two minutes for several tier's worth of regen" is pointless. Spirit-based regen is, I think, much more interesting. You have to make tradeoffs between immediate throughput now and potential longevity issues in the future, which takes strategic considerations, experience, and encounter knowledge to make perfectly.
Even passive mp/5 is a midly more interesting mechanic because you have to decide how much to gear for it, so there is some academic consideration of longevity vs throughput. There aren't as many interesting decisions during the encounter itself, but there's something. Mana potions *could* have this sort of decision available to them if they weren't so atrociously overbudget compared to other combat potions. I think it should be evident there are balance problems when the regen consumable is more DPS than the DPS consumable for most DPS classes that aren't supposed to have to worry about regen.
The (slightly) larger problem with regen as a mechanic is that they can't quite make up their mind how limiting they want it to be. On the one hand, mastering regen mechanics could be the hallmark of being able to play a class well, as priests were back in the day. On the other hand, between shadowpriests and mana potions there are enough tools lying around that in the appropriate situation anyone will have more mana than they could reasonably need. And in that situation, the entire point of having a mana bar vanishes.
I'm not a purist in that I think every class should have to watch their mana like a hawk as part of learning to play. Different classes play different ways, and it's an interesting enough mechanic that it deserves a place in the game, for some class. Mana potions are an impediment to that, because they're better and easier than managing regen mechanics intelligently.
If there were some other kind of consumable available to healers that consumed the potion timer but wasn't a mana potion, yet was balanced in such a way as to make it desirable, that would be interesting. As it is, non-healing classes will often use Haste Potions/Destruction Potions/Ironshield Potions for their potion timers in situations where the additional performance is more desirable than the benefits of Health/Mana Potions. Obviously not all these consumables are created equal--Haste Potions are extremely powerful for melee DPS, Ironshield Potions are a basic requirement for tanks learning end-game encounters, and Destro Pots are somewhat underwhelming by comparison.
The fact remains that the OPTION is there, which it isn't for healers. I use my potion timer on a Mana Potion (sometimes a Fire Protection pot or something like that, but almost always a mana potion) or I don't use it at all. Similarly, as a Leatherworker my only real "healing-specific" option is Drums of Restoration, which are another mana-regen item. Drums of Battle will increase my casting speed but the effect is difficult to appreciate in a quantifiably. Bottom line, some sort of consumable that used the Potion timer, wasn't a mana pot, and was extremely valuable in a raid context would be neat. A pure "giant boost to +healing" consumable would be a little dull but nonetheless could be great if used properly (shit is going down on Eredar Twins, you need a lot more output quickly, use your Potion of OMGhealz).
I do think it's a little silly that classes are all over the spectrum in terms of their basic mana regen mechanics. Making Spirit good for two classes but not for two others adds flavor and variety to the game and to itemization, as long as the other two are given similar distinct options. IMO, Shaman regen is great right now because it's balanced between gear, totems and Water Shield. Maintaining all 3 in a good balance makes for fantastic results and I like the way the class operates in PvE. Paladins are getting the short end of the stick because their unique mana-management talent/stat isn't so much regen-focused as conservation-focused, and ultimately it's dependent on two things: first, a stat that scales exponentially but is seriously overpriced in terms of item budgeting (spell crit). Second, the fact that in order to really take advantage of Illumination the Paladin must be casting. You have to actively expend mana to take advantage of your class's unique mechanic, but that mechanic will always result in a net loss of mana (even if you crit every single heal, you're losing mana over time). In a fully-buffed raid environment, a third mechanic comes into play: Spiritual Attunement. Fights these days are based on massive raid-wide damage, so between Illumination + Consumables + Raid buffs + outside healing a Paladin ends up about equal with everyone else. The problem is, in PvP that same Paladin will have one or at best two of these working in his favor and as a result Paladins are thoroughly underwhelming in today's small scale arenas.
edit: Looking back over my post, it seems a little scatter-brained and full of run-on sentences and the like. Apologies.
Best solution I've seen so far is making mana potions only fill your mana bar up to, say, 4k. It's perfectly workable to scale it and allow better potions as the game progresses, allows you to not be completely screwed in solo/etc play in those times when you need potions within a relatively short time frame, and doesn't allow freak combat pauses in encounters to allow you to pot more, all of which are potential issues in other suggestions. It turns them into precisely what Health potions are, and what mana potions are while soloing: an emergency measure. In terms of almost every single class, as long as mana regen concerns are addressed, there will be very little changed. But at least you won't be popping one less than a minute into every fight and every 2 minutes afterwards.
If the potion filled your mana bar up to 4k, wouldn't you just use one once you went oom and then another one every 2 minutes thereafter?
I prefer the once-per-combat idea. Freak occurrences of combat dropping are trivial to work around - just make it require being out of combat for a full 30 seconds to clear the cooldown.
Giving the mana Potion a debuff/counter was the best strategical thing I have read for it in an attempt to fix...
Mana now at the cost of mana later - pot gives you 2k mana instantly, but also a -80MP5 debuff (unremovable) for its cooldown duration of 2mins (so you borrow the mana from 2mins in the future), somewhat like Fel Mana.
It still has its uses, and near the end of the fight it would be perfectly fine to use as the downsides are... not going to be with you long, it also works well with phase changes where you have time to relax during one and need to burst in another.
You claim hunters, warlocks and mages are almost complete. I'd say that's probably almost true.
I have to ask, being a newbie to this issue, what you base this on? In particular Hunters, I can see the Warlock issue being rather easily dealt with, Mages did get a nice little buff. But Hunters?
I'm chain chugging Fel Mana potions (more expensive, fairly rare and don't drop while doing dailies, they can be tough to get at times) and still I have to 'sit still' for a while at the end of encounters waiting for the CD on potions. It's insane. Fel mana, Resto drums and I will soon be adding Dark Runes. And of course I run with consumable raids buffs (of which two affects my Mp5 and only one actual combat power).
If complete is being addicted to a demonic drink then yes I guess I'm complete.
I have to ask, being a newbie to this issue, what you base this on? In particular Hunters, I can see the Warlock issue being rather easily dealt with, Mages did get a nice little buff. But Hunters?
I'm chain chugging Fel Mana potions (more expensive, fairly rare and don't drop while doing dailies, they can be tough to get at times) and still I have to 'sit still' for a while at the end of encounters waiting for the CD on potions. It's insane. Fel mana, Resto drums and I will soon be adding Dark Runes. And of course I run with consumable raids buffs (of which two affects my Mp5 and only one actual combat power).
If complete is being addicted to a demonic drink then yes I guess I'm complete.
On my 4pc tier-6 paladin I HAVE to chain chug fel mana pots on a fight like Kalecgos just to maintain the healing throughput required to keep the tanks alive. Sure I can chain cast FoL forever but that doesn't keep the tanks alive in high end content so I am forced to use my most inefficient spell.
Since I'm a Paladin I have no real passive regen abilities. My mp5 is extremely low. I've recently switched over to using my Vashj mace as a spellsurge weapon just to simply try and squeeze a bit more out of my mana bar. It's entirely possible that I'm playing wrong, that I've gemmed incorrectly or that I don't cast-cancel often enough. I freely admit I don't down-rank but mostly this is because with an Oceanic ping you simply cannot heal reactively and cancelling what is potentially an 8k heal 300ms before it would land is inviting tank death.
With the new 2.4 changes the only healers I give to shadowpriests are paladins. The others are perfectly able to last the length of the fights in SWP/BT without.
Anyway the point of my post is that if the mana potion mechanic were to change paladins at minimum would need some sort of cooldown to use that would work like a mana pot. Divine Illumination would need to seriously be buffed otherwise paladins would find that their only purpose would be to sit outside an instance and provide nice 30 minute buffs, tank or dps. I shouldn't complain.. maybe I could raid on my shaman...
According to http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t17193-p...s_theorycraft/ , JoW is 220+ Mp5 for a hunter, so no, they don't struggle with it up. Not all guilds run with a ret paladin though, particularly so alliance side.
Well, that is all nice and dandy, but that isn't actually the Hunter itself that is complete. It is an external mechanic that requires the presence of other certain classes.
We can't expect everybody to have Retri pallies, and not all fights lend themselves to have JoW put up at 20 sec intervals. Hence, I actually don't see it at all, despite heavy lobbying for it. Arguing that JoW makes me complete is like arguing that Spirests make me complete, and honestly, that is bull.
Either we depend on ourselves, or we don't. And I can't depend on myself and not run with 40 Fel Mana at least.
Where do we draw the line between self-sufficience and raid utility? If Hunters (and other classes) were provided with enough mana regen options to not need Judgement of Wisdom, that takes away another reason to bring a Ret Paladin.
Well, that is all nice and dandy, but that isn't actually the Hunter itself that is complete. It is an external mechanic that requires the presence of other certain classes.
Soooo? What's your point here? That you require to cooperate with and depend on others to be able to function to your full potential in am *MMO*? Geez...
We can't expect everybody to have Retri pallies, and not all fights lend themselves to have JoW put up at 20 sec intervals. Hence, I actually don't see it at all, despite heavy lobbying for it. Arguing that JoW makes me complete is like arguing that Spirests make me complete, and honestly, that is bull.
Not it's not. It's called synergy, proper raid composition and multiplayer among other things. It's not Diablo I.
Fixing the proactive aspect of mana pots seems impossible. I didn't really like the 1 potion per battle idea, because sometimes being able to drink another potion at the very end lets you push through for the win, and that's a feeling I find very enjoyable when it happens. A pot per battle just means you have 2400 more mana to use on average every fight.
Here's the best idea I could think of. Maybe someone can turn it into a sound one.
- Diminishing returns on mana potions.
-- First potion works normally. Second gives you half. Every one after that gives you a quarter.
-- The DR effect is removed on death, or if you do not drink another potion within x(5?) minutes.
- The amount restored per potion is a base number plus a percentage of your mana deficit.
As an example, the new super mana pot might give 1000 base mana and 20% of your deficit.
With 10k max mana:
If you had 7000/10000 mana and you'd get 1000 + 600 mana back. The next potion at 7k mana would only give you 800 back. Everyone after that would only give you 400 back.
If you had 0/10000 mana, you'd get 1000 + 2000 mana back, then 1500, then 750.
And of course there would be caps on total amount healed so you can't use level 1 potions at level 80.
I think this would make the mana pots slightly more reactive. Maybe it'd just add a shitty layer of theorycraft to maximize your mana gain, but even so there may be more interesting possibilities, like using a mana pot, then some destruction pots while DR is in place, then back to mana pots.
I also fully agree with Ghando's point about the inequality of alternative uses for the potion cooldown timer. There needs to be more options for everyone. Like for healers, a potion that increases critical bonus of your heals by 100%, or a potion that makes your overheals create an absorbing shield. Make the sporregar potion give an additional effect of reducing the threat you generate by x. Eyesinthebackofhead Potion for tanks to let you parry, dodge, and block attacks from behind. A potion that increases cast time by 50% but doubles damage. There's so many short term effects which could add variety to your potion choice regardless of your class.
Honestly, then I think you guys who 'don't need mana potions' are doing something wrong, because I have an alc stone, I have 1300 mp5 while not casting, 480 while casting, and i STILL use mana potions now like water in Sunwell Plateau. Last night on 4 hours of felmyst attempts, I used 37 potions even while in an spriest group. I was raid healing and came in a little ways behind a shaman at #2. Since 2.4, I don't use potions nearly as much in BT or HS except on maybe Council, but I'm also wearing 2pc t6 + 2pc Sunwell gear. Seriously; every healer in my guild still uses mana potions because they can take the approximate amount of mana regen that the potions are worth out of their gear and stack +heal or +crit, or whatever and chain mana potions.
Ironically enough, the ones who chug potions the LEAST, even after 2.4, are resto shamans and paladins in my guild. The priests and druids who switched over to spirit, or had spirit pre-2.4, are still chain chugging mana potions because they work it into their rotation. It's part of min/maxing. Chain chugging mana potions means there is +heal to be put/placed elsewhere. I'm going to take them no matter what, so I can gem/enchant/gear/spellcast around that. However, there is nothing in this game forcing you to play the same way as me. You could just as easily gem/enchant/gear around not potting.
Last night I was using the mana-cost-reducting rejuvenation idol, and when I was fine on mana, I switched to the +healing to rejuv idol AND a +heal trinket so that I would have to take potions and eek out more heals.
If my guildies really didn't want to chain potions, they wouldn't be in this guild, but aside from that, they could choose to gear themselves to regen mana without having to pot. They'd just have to give up a ton of actual healing power. Well, whatever - this game is ALL about personal player preferences and choices.
I'm really still not seeing how this is not a 'I'm too cheap to mana pot' thread. You do NOT have to min/max to get through the content. In no way do you have to. You don't have to pot to get through the content either. Mana Potions are not a required mechanic. You have to min/max to cut it in some guilds; but that is a personal choice and if you don't want to go the extra inch it takes to get mana potions, then don't; but don't expect to be in the top 100 killing eredar twins or felmyst or any of the bleeding edge content. Why would you? You don't want to do everything available to you in this game to make yourself the best you can be so why should you see bleeding edge content the second it opens?
Whether they are an emergency or not is completely a matter of opinion and is in no way how they should or should not be used.
This isn't a hardcore versus casual argument; and it's not about time put into this game, at all. What you're saying is that you think you shouldn't have to chain chug mana potions to min/max, and I completely disagree - you should have to do extra things to min/max and be at the top of your game PvE-wise; it is part of what separates the bleeding edge guilds from everyone else.
For example, Nezralix, sorry, I'd never app to or join Premonition because of the main reason that I can't raid 12 hours a day - I can't raid from 5-7pm til 6am - but you know what? I don't really care, and I don't really care that they are top 100. It doesn't matter. It's completely irrelevant. How much they raid has ZERO to do with whether I mana pot or not; I'm kind of confused as to how you drew the parallel? Hell, how much my own guild raids is completely irrelevant to whether I pot or not - time spent has nothing to do with it. Either you'll want to take pots and go the extra inch or you won't; the time you spend doing it is completely irrelevant. You're complaining about the fact that you cannot skip taking potions and still have the extra mana regen. You want to min/max without actually min/maxing.
Another example: when I am moonkin, I chain chug mana potions AND demonic runes so that I can go without an spriest, and use a wizard oil/damage flask instead of mana regen consumables. IF i used mana regen consumables instead, I could go without potting or could possibly eek out some damage by using mana regen consumables and destruction potions over mana potions. But you know what? That's not as effective for my purposes and I choose to min/max my character. That's a personal choice and I can choose whichever I want. You can choose to not take mana potions at all, that's a perfectly acceptable decision, but at the same time, don't expect to hang out with 24 other people who don't give a shit and will chug for four hours straight. Don't apply to an RP guild and then get all weird about RPing. Don't apply to a social group-affiliated guild and act all surprised that they talk about said group/affiliate all the time.
All mana regen mechanics for all classes, including druids, require decisions to be made. Druids don't just have 'unlimited mana regen' as some people in this thread are stating. I can continually cast rejuv without stopping for 10 straight minutes, including potting and innervating. But you know what? I also have only +2000 healing in Sunwell Plateau. I come in at #2-4 depending on my assignment, and lower if I am healing one or both of our tanks. I have to give up 600 bonus healing and be prepared to cast CONSTANTLY NON-STOP to have that privilege. Druids who stack bonus healing, I tell you right now, regardless of what they will claim, cannot cast anything BUT lifebloom or they WILL run out of mana, even post-2.4. They use ONE of their five major healing spells and that's it. That's all there is to them. Some fights are terrible for trying to heal with lifebloom. I can think of two out of the first three fights in SP where their other available HoTs are just so much better. Even if you give them a shadow priest, they will run low relatively quickly using anything but lifebloom, and even with lifebloom, they have to take a mana potion.
Every class has to give up some stats for others to balance themselves out and to claim otherwise is just ignorance and overexaggeration. Shamans are terrible if people aren't clumped together (aka hyjal, upstairs Kalecgos), and can't run and heal either. Druids aren't good at burst damage healing whatsoever, and pallies are only good at single target healing, but they are THE BEST at it. Priests can do one or other other well but usually it's DS priests who single target and CoH priests who are good at raid healing. BUT they cannot do both at the same time. They have decent mana regen but like druids, have to give up bonus healing for regen or vice versa, or they will require a shadow priest and/or druid innervates. DS priests have to play the 5SR game. No one class 'has it all.'
In the end, why in the world would you complain about mana potions being broken when they are by no means a required mechanic to see the game content in the first place? None of the consumables are. The only other reason I can think of is that you want the benefits but don't want to farm the materials?
I started reading that rather long post with high expectations; clearly a fair amount of effort went into it. I ended up a little disappointed in the content. There's a whole pile of anecdotal evidence there. Some of it is very relevant, and some of it is only passingly relevant, but it's all arriving at a very odd conclusion.
Why is so much time spent arguing that mana potions are essentially required (and that players who aren't using them are "doing something wrong"), only to eventually make the point that mana potions are a "choice"? Are you seriously making the argument that players can "choose" not to use mana potions as long as they don't mind being out of mana? This seems to be what you're saying, particularly in the case of DPS classes, who don't have a lot of flexibility in their mana usage patterns anyway. What you're speaking of here isn't really related to a "choice to perform" as a "choice to underperform", as the consequences for DPS classes for not chugging are potentially dire; you're stuck wanding or, even worse, melee auto-attacking. Healers do have more tactical implications related to their mana regeneration, but the consequences for not having mana are probably even more dire (specifically, dead raid members). Managing a mana pool should be an important strategic consideration, and the existence of mana potions to augment your regeneration ultimately unbalance and cheapen any meaningful system they might arrive at.
There is no need to equate lack of mana potions with the lack of *any* caster consumables. Clearly, some caster classes have more options than others, but overall the options for temporary consumables are somewhat sparse compared to the options available to melee DPS classes. This can be fixed. It's a common problem in these sorts of threads that participants argue too strongly in the context of the game as it exists now, rather than in the context of what the game *could be*. If mana potions are taken out of the picture, then desirable alternatives must be and will be added, ideally ones that aren't frustratingly proactive in nature, and that have the opportunity to be applied reactively or situationally to significant benefit.
The options on the table for mana regeneration have been discussed fairly thoroughly. I've written pretty extensively on the topic in this thread and in others, and I'd encourage you to read back a few pages to get a better idea what my point is, because I really don't think it helps anybody for me to regurgitate the same material even more than I already have. I've discussed why "chug every cooldown" mechanics are fundamentally uninteresting and bad for the game, and that includes not just mana potions but also things like Ironshield potions.
I'm also not sure why my name came up in that particular reference; when did I say anything related to joining a 12-hour-per-night suicide guild? Being recognized is great, but in this case I don't really even know if I'm the person who you're thinking about.
I am cheap, though. When you're talking about spending 37 mana potions per night, then that's pretty hardcore, and I don't think you'll find too many people who *wouldn't* want to be "cheap" if that's the alternative.
What we keep running into is the argument that "mana potions are a needed 2 minute cooldown" vs "mana potions are a very valuable resource but not necessary".
While i have sympathy for people who spend 37 potions in a night, that is a CHOICE. Especially DPS classes. As Ailetha pointed out, all the spirit regen change did was allow priests and druids to have options in gear. Prior, people were wearing primal mooncloth FOREVER and using any gems or enchants for +regen. Now at least they can look at stats and try a more balanced approach. Furthermore, this also allows raid leaders the luxury of moving some of the synergistic regen to the DPS groups. Everyone wins.
If anything, chain chugging mana potions is the extreme edge of min/max. Doing so allows people to DPS/heal harder and longer then if they didn't have them. The cost is just like anything in the game... TIME. Time to farm the mats or gold to for each week's raids.
Lets be clear... chain chugging is by no means necessary to progress. It does however speed up that progression if people CHOOSE to use them. If you want to get by as a guild only pot'ing once a fight, you just need to be prepared to take longer gearing up before progressing.
04/18/08, 5:31 PM
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