• Nisu

I am BM. BM is the lightest mana usage Hunter spec by a decent margin. It's not a choice any more than not enchanting or gemming my gear is a choice. If I don't pot, I may as well not come to the raid. 300 dps is over 25% of my dps. 300 dps is the difference between me and a prot warrior. 300 dps is the difference between me and a newly 70 hunter. 300 dps comes from clicking a button every 2 minutes. I don't know, maybe you're the kind of player that feels comfortable doing 300 dps less than you could be, but I certainly don't.

 

Zophos

I play a mage. If I am not using a mana potion on every cooldown, and I intend to be whatsoever useful (that is, not just using my wand for a majority of the encounter), there is no other alternative. The only exception to this rule is on a fight like Reliquary of Souls where everyone's mana disappears, making Destruction Potions viable. A similar principle applies elsewhere in raiding: unless every member is doing what they can to contribute their part, the completion of the effort is simply not possible (Brutallus also comes to mind), and thus people's issues aren't a pedantic rebuttal; it's a fundamental reality, and those who do not abide by it either are not thrust in positions of such responsibility, are awaiting for content to be adjusted until it becomes immaterial, or are causing their guild mates to pull their part of the load.

And the encounters are designed around that assumption; how precisely is a development team supposed to continue its pursuit of engaging encounters if people retain that capacity? As someone said earlier, any mana user is faced with the reality (not the choice) of needing to use mana potions on every cooldown, except for the odd encounter that violates the general rule. If bosses had no berserk timer, if there were not mana drain components to a multitude of fights, and if everything else in the Universe were different, then the argument presented might retain its merit. But to suggest that this action, which is in fact a reaction to the available content, is in some way a product of volition is, at the least, deceptive, and at the worst, fundamentally flawed.

Guild Master - Epignosis

 

flyingtoastr

And with every raid buff I usually get (Mana Spring, improved BoW and JoW with my beasty 6k mana) I can push myself OOM in under 50 seconds doing a maximum rotation.

I'm not trying to go all "you think you have it bad QQ" on you; rather I'm trying to illustrate that no one does a maximum rotation and using at an example of why your class sucks is foolish. DPM rotations were developed for a very good reason.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

topojijo

And if all hunters do this you have significantly less raid damage and thus either your other players have to pick up the pace or you don't beat the encounter, or you choose another class. None of those are acceptable options as it doesn't just apply to hunters.

 

lairpie

I think a large part of the original argument has also been missed lately, that its not just mana potions, though they're the largest culprit. Pre BC, even with mana potions, every healer, though slightly less so paladins, had to constantly watch their mana pool, try to pick the most effective spells, have different ranks of spells, carefully cancel any heal that wasn't landing for enough hp. Early on there were people doing healing rotations where priests and druids would take turns to stop healing and just wand / melee for JoW proc and get their oofsr regen going. Mana conservation was such an important factor in healing that it was worth having people completely stop healing for extended stretches to increase over all mana regen.

Now, druids are often gemming exclusively for +healing, using the terrible stat trade off [Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] over the very nice [Insightful Earthstorm Diamond], breaking all their socket bonuses, not having a shadow priest or mana spring and still casting freely as if they don't even have a mana bar. People talk about how mana pots open up other playstyles and specs? How? For druids the obscene amounts of regen make what on paper is a very powerful spec in dreamstate/resto useless because there's simply nothing good to do with the extra mana, all you'd do is mana pot less and save a few gold. Frost is worthless in pve because the only thing it offers over fire is mana efficiency, which isn't at all needed as long as you have a SP and a few mana pots. The viability of ret and prot paladins making JoW a reality instead of something that happens once in a while has further pushed mana regen from a combination of sources to an absurd level.

All along the design has been to offer mana classes regen boosts and physical classes direct power boosts. This is a fine model if the mana classes have some way to convert extra mana into more damage through increased use of less efficient spells, but other than that, its kind of useless. The idea of mages using arcane blast woven into other rotations is an example of the sort of thing that would help, but the math just wasn't quite there to support it. Flat out lowering mana regen across the board would just make mana classes bad and rogues ridiculous, but a through examination and readjustment of many mana regen or efficiency talents, abilities, and consumables to force strategic decisions balancing dps and dpm or hps and hpm would create a more interesting game. That sweeping of a chance is obviously not coming this expansion, but its not unreasonable at all to look to blizzard to take some ideas to heart as they do the grand re balancing of things for WOTLK.

Brewmaster of WBC

 

mek

This kind of arguing is inane, and the thread is full of it already. The problem is not that there exist consumables which improve performance; this is fine, we are all accomodated to that already (though there were problems with it pre-2.1). The problem is that mana potions in particular are so ludicrously powerful compared to everything else that they lower the quality of gameplay; instead of having options or decisions to make, we just chug mana potions.

 

• Nisu

Right, I'm not saying a max rotation is the way to go, I was just illustrating the point that yes, raid synergy allows me to push higher dps, but no synergy forces me to pot to maintain dps, period. I can do respectable DPS with a light rotation. I can do excellent dps with enough mana restoration. I can't dps without some outside source of mana. I'm not saying my class sucks, and I'm relatively happy with it - I've got enough resources to chain-pot from here to WotLK, but that doesn't make it any less stupid.

 

Ailetha

What are you talking about? In order to min/max your output, of course it should be a determining factor. OF COURSE it should be.

It is REQUIRED to use mana potions to min/max your gear and whatnot, but this is how it SHOULD be. Mana Potions aren't required to raid- you can work your gear around it. Your lesser output as a result of refusal to use mana potions is your own problem and is a result of your own choices.

My guild is not in SSC/TK or anywhere near that.

This kind of arguing is inane, and the thread is full of it already. The problem isn't that the consumables exist, it's that people, such as yourself, want to min/max their characters without putting in any effort whatsoever, or use anything extra whatsoever in order to achieve the full maximum output of their playing ability.

You can gem, enchant, and work around not having to use mana potions. They aren't required. However, you not having maximum healing/damage output because of your refusal to use mana potions is, again, your own problem and the people who welcome using everything available in their arsenal should not be punished because of your own laziness.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...ks/Ailetha.png

 

Ailetha

What are you talking about? In order to min/max your output, of course it should be a determining factor. OF COURSE it should be.

It is REQUIRED to use mana potions to min/max your gear and whatnot, but this is how it SHOULD be. Mana Potions aren't required to raid- you can work your gear around it. Your lesser output as a result of refusal to use mana potions is your own problem and is a result of your own choices.

My guild is not in SSC/TK or anywhere near that.

This kind of arguing is inane, and the thread is full of it already. The problem isn't that the consumables exist, it's that people, such as yourself, want to min/max their characters without putting in any effort whatsoever, or use anything extra whatsoever in order to achieve the full maximum output of their playing ability.

You can gem, enchant, and work around not having to use mana potions. They aren't required. However, you not having maximum healing/damage output because of your refusal to use mana potions is, again, your own problem and the people who welcome using everything available in their arsenal should not be punished because of your own laziness. You're saying we shouldn't have a large arsenal to choose from in the first place and I completely disagree.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...ks/Ailetha.png

 

lairpie

Not only did you clearly not read the whole thread, you didn't even read the whole post you quoted. I clearly stated that mana potions should not be a bigger determining factor in your healing output than a whole list of other things. Saying they shouldn't be a bigger factor than some things, clearly implies that they should be at least some of a factor. I really don't know what to tell you if you think 10 minutes worth of farming to buy mana potions should be more important than months of farming to have t6 level gear. Actually, you have a 10 spirit gem in a red slot on an item with a spirit bonus. Even if you're taking the stance that gimping your own healing output by way more than you help other people's is worth it to gem for spirit, despite all math to the contrary, there's still no way to justify your gem choices. I guess maybe you're socketing for spirit so you don't have to use mana potions? Seriously, you picked 7 spirit (3 from the bonus) over 22 healing?

This is an example: even with terrible gem choices throughout your gear showing a fundamental lack of understanding for druid healing mechanics, you can just pop enough mana potions to be a fine healer in an Illidan killing guild.

 

Althor

From those lists of spells from the WotLK alpha:

Restore Mana Restores $s1 mana.
Drinking mana potions inflicts Mana Sickness, draining all of your mana after 1 min.

 

PSGarak

Also from the WLK alpha, in this case from the datamined infoz:
Warlocks get use from spirit now. Yeah, I don't get it either. Fel armor gives base 30% meditation instead of the healing effect (assumed 39% with 3/3 Deamonic Aegis talent). There's also a demonology talent to give 10% spirit (and an unrelated pet buff), and a destruction talent that adds some spell power based on spirit and gives a temporary spirit boost on a crit. Demonic Embrace currently still gives -5% spirit, so who knows. I for one will not be surprised either way if these things get reverted or not.
Arcane mages get a spirit -> crit rating talent, and I think shadow priests got a spirit -> damage talent too.

In short, Spirit is becoming a more premier stat for just about all DPS caster classes that aren't elemental shamans (shockadins don't count). To me, this indicates that blizzard may be setting the stage for mana regen to be a more important aspect of PvE encounters, and for spirit to be more common on gear. Or rather, as common on offset gear as it is now, except we won't mind any more.

[E] Also, Shadow Priest VT is getting dropped to 2%, but discipline and druid restoration talents exist allowing some heals to restore mana. So the cross-class mana regen is getting spread around a bit. Also, if shadow priests are allowed to scale better with damage, this may be significantly less than a 60% nerf on the regen they bring.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Prinsesa

As well, it seems indicative of Blizzard wanting to create fewer sets of caster DPS gear.

Currently, there's crit-less, SPI-less "Dreadweave"-type gear for Affliction Locks and Shadow Priests; SPI-less "Felweave"-type gear with spell crit for Destro Locks and general use and finally some pieces with all three stats for Mages. And then there's the issue of Arcane Mages and Shadow Priests "avoiding" spell hit because they're so easily capped.

Aside from Mages, Warlocks and Priests getting additional benefits from SPI, we're seeing Shadow Focus and Arcane Focus getting nerfed to 3% spell hit, while Destro gets some from Cataclysm, effectively bringing spell hit to be an equally desirable stat across the board.

Then, Shadow Priests are seeing spell crit go up in value with Shadow Power increasing their crit damage bonus as well as Spirit Tap proccing from SW: D and Mind Blast crits. Even Affliction is seeing some value in spell crit, with Eradication providing hasted Shadowbolts, as well as Shadowbolts themselves refreshing Corruption via Everlasting Affliction.

By making all 4 stats (SPI, spell hit, spell damage, spell crit) desirable across the specs of all three DPS casters, there's far less need to create separate items just to fit certain itemization archetypes, leading to less loot table clutter.

With regards to mana regen itself though, it's interesting to see how Life Tap is going to be affected by all this. Blizzard already expressed an interest in fundamentally changing it before, and the recent SPI changes are further sign that they want Locks to be less reliant on it.

Edit: In the WOTLK Shadow Priest discussion thread, number-crunching using current best-in-slot items and new talents revealed that personal regen for SPs was even higher than enough, enough to effectively let them go "infinite" without chugging mana pots - a net loss of only -25 MP5 even without Improved Spirit Tap procs, as opposed to the current net less of -168 MP5.

The reduction of VT from 5% to 2% was more than made up for by Shadow Focus' mana cost reductions, Shadow Power's increased crit damage and Dark Spirit's increased Shadow damage to tune of a 12% increase in personal DPS. However, VT's mana returns to the party took a nosedive, going from 500 MP5 to 225 MP5.

Hopefully, talent changes to the other casters will allow them as much sustainability while cutting out the reliance on a Shadow Priest for mana, especially if that Mana Sickness effect 2 posts above goes through.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

• Intermission

That would definitely fall into place with the other changes, in an effort to increase the desire for spirit and intellect:

a) regen from int/spi buffed massively.
b) classes who didnt previously have in-5-sec-rule regen are getting those options available (warlocks new armor, but haven't seen shaman/paladin talents yet). Or possibly shaman/paladin gear will be even more mp5 focused, and some sort of mana regain talents and buffs.
c) making mana pots only a "last resort" ability.

The effects of "c)" would be great for the game:
- no requirement to chain-chug mana potions! It really would become a "potion", not simply a consumable with a 2 minute duration.
- can leave cooldowns for haste/destro style potions, or some fights can be designed knowing everyone has their resist/hp potions ready. (it infuriates me still how some people can fail so much at using healthstones + potions + battlemasters trinkets to stay alive on fights such as Felmyst or Twins. More widespread and *needed* use may finally get some retards into the habit of saving themselves from aoe burst combos.)
- your mana bar more accurately represents how much you have left in the tank.


That spell is probably just some effect of some random ability, or may simply not make it through, or a test, or who knows. I for one wish it to be true, though.

Then again, I'm a hunter. JoW up = I have near unlimited mana. JoW down = I have zero mana in 45 seconds. Mana is very binary in a hunters world, pots or no pots dont really change that.

 

Northerner

This, of course, is the tricky bit. As much as chain-chugging mana potions may be irritating and poor design, chain-chugging haste/destro potions is considerably higher in terms of cost and lower in terms of effect. Perhaps it is indeed negligible enough (which mana potions clearly are not) that people can only use them for serious attempts on new content.

Still, even the one minute drain-all mechanic can be used to effect by any class that can get an innervate, can lifetap, can evocate or can otherwise recover from hitting zero. I like the concept though.

 

• Intermission

Yeah, I thought about that when typing it. Who knows what the cost of those potions will be in WotLK, or how potent they will be (or if they will even exist).

 

Incoherence

And just when alchemy gets a really nice trinket, too.

I mean, it makes perfect sense if they want to finish what they started with consumable use in 2.1, but it does seem that it's a bit of a kick in the pants for alchemists.

 

• Intermission

Shouldn't that read "slap in the face"?

I kid, I kid.

They'd surely change the trinkets. Possibly make the trinket extend the time before oom, or reduce the oom effect somehow. Or even:

- Using a mana/destruction pot increases your spell damage by X for Y seconds (caster dps trinket)
- Using a mana/[new healing version of destruction pot] increases your healing by X for Y seconds (healing trinket)
- Using a mana/haste pot increases your attack power by X for Y seconds (physical dps trinket)
- Using a mana/health/ironshield pot increases your armor/defence/HP by X for Y seconds (tank trinket)

And tack on:

- Increases the effect of elemental protection potions and health potions by 50%

to all the trinkets for good measure.

 

Prinsesa

@Intermission: I think it was already discussed during the initial introduction of these new alchemy trinkets that adding that kind of bonus would quickly turn Alchemy into a "mandatory-for-raiding" profession on the scale of Enchanting or Leatherworking.

Consider that Enchanting gives a caster a profession-unique +24 spell damage.

Barring a really low value of X or a really low amount of passive spell damage, it would be easy for the Alchemy Stone to add enough profession-unique spell damage to make it best-in-slot.

This would probably be especially true for tanks, since any substantial increase in an Ironshield Pot is more than enough reason to take it.

Instead, one idea I have is to make the potion duration (and cooldown?) proportionally larger if the trinket is equipped. Instead of a 2 minute Ironshield, you get a 3 minute Ironshield, so you only need 2 pots per Brutallus attempt.

This gives Alchemists a "nice-to-have" bonus by letting them save on pot consumption without offering too much of a min-maxing advantage.

EDIT: Another idea would be to allow the trinket to extend the time before Mana Sickness kicks in, or letting you save a certain amount (percentage?) of mana after the Sickness.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

• Intermission

I'm hoping they work out an item-budget worth per profession at an end game point of view, so professions wont be so unbalanced.

The most basic example is enchanting. If a an enchanter gets 20 AGI per ring, that's 40 points (whatever the metric is) that is enchanter only. So a blacksmith may be able to give their own weapon a 40 STR buff to two hand, or 20 STR to each one hand. Ignore enchants, WF, poisons, its just an example.

Drums have effect yourself and 4 other people. They have an 1/4 uptime. They could make them 40 item budget points worth of haste and take them off the GCD (technically that makes it worth more because its 5 people vs 1/4 uptime, but considering is an on-use with possible redundancy due to classes in the party, it might as well have a slight boost). Or give them a little boost but keep them on the GCD.

So these sort of additional and stacking effects can be normalised. Then you're left with only the craftable gear, which can easily be fit into the appropriate instance tiers.

Novelty things such as tailoring nets really dont matter, or mad alchy pots. But if all raid beneficial and stacking effects had similar ilvl values and were all pretty effective for each suitable class, that would put a stop to massive profession rerolls such as LW for drums.


EDIT: Oh yeah, the trinket. It's not an additional item, it's a trinket slot. I'm sure they could adjust the values on the procs assuming a pot every 2-3 minutes, and toss in a novelty effect like you suggested.

 

◊ Kyth

Offtopic for the thread, but just thought I'd note:

The destruction spellhit is as useless as the affliction spellhit was during all of TBC. Until Blizzard makes Soul Shatter unresistable, or makes it affected by the +hit talents (it's a demonology spell, not affliction or destruction), warlocks will continue to need to fully cap +hit on their gear and ignore +hit talents.


Also, lifetap is still a dps loss in WotLK, so I can't imagine warlocks stopping their mana pot usage unless it becomes prohibitive to use it (e.g. fully draining mana.)

Our locks are the only remaining dps who use mana pots on most fights in TBC.

Officer of <Fusion>
http://www.stratfu.com/ - StratFu: Strategies, Guides, Movies, and Tips for Wrath Raiding

 

TheJJ

Well I looked a bit throuth the spells @ http://urlshort.com/wotlk/site/spellsearch.php and thats what came up:
Thats is the spell description of Super Mana Potion (actual 1800-3000 mana).

Then there is
I think that will be our new "standard" mana potion bc there is only one new potion in TBC.

And finally
A supersized potion with side effects, something like Fel Mana Potion right now.

So healers still will be chainchugging potions, but have more control (all potions restore fixed amout, even old ones) and "burst" ability (Boss at 20% but almost oom).

 

Uglesh

I just can't believe that they would put "Drinking mana potions inflicts Mana Sickness, draining all of your mana after 1 min" on one potion and not the others... especially one that only restores less the 800 more mana.

The only way that Mana Sickness would work is if ALL potions had it, or the ones that do need to be MASSIVELY benefical to the point that you would give up a possible chain chug of just lesser potions.

 

lairpie

They have fel mana pots now which give more mana, but also have an adverse effect, and they're the pillar of hunter / ret paly mana potioning. In a world where druids could actually burn off enough mana without being stupid to need a 4k mana pot * 1.4 (alch stone) I would definitely use one of those timed about a minute before I'm going to innervate or within a minute of the fight being over.

Brewmaster of WBC

 

Uglesh

Yes but fel mana potions "adverse" affect is really minimal compared to being set to 0 mana after one minute.

The biggest problem is that if the difference between a "regular" pot and one of these is only 800 mana, the reality is you won't likely be at 0 mana when the clock ticks off... thus reducing the advantage of this potion by that set amount. even a couple hundred mana left over would make this potions only a marginal upgrade.

Regardless, the "chain chug" will still be there... only this might be the last potion you turn to as you are approaching OOM anyways.

With the apparent spirit regen changes and their desire to streamline gear to only a few paths, I'm very nervous about infinite mana.