Mana Regen: the last broken mechanic? - Page 2

Swanchr · 06/14/07, 4:29 PM

I can only speak from a mage perspective but I only find it necessary to chain pot on Gruul and on Nightbane. (my guild is working on Mag)

A key thing for mages is to manage your cool downs and use all your gems (I go through 3-4 gems on Gruul) as soon as you can.

It is almost like a spell rotation (i.e. 800 mana gem, pot, evo, 1000 mana gem, pot etc).

In some ways I think it is up to the player. You can cut back on your dps a bit by using a less mana intensive spell rotation, or wanding a bit, and not pot as much. This may not work on all encounters, especially new content, but as things move to farm status this becomes possible.

Teenee · 06/14/07, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Seriously, there just need to be generic raid-zone mana pots, buyable for a cheap price in silver. Between daily quest gold generation and the general prevalence of gold in the expac, 50s for a raid-zone-only manapot would fix the issue well enough to leave alone. It wouldn't be ideal, but it would work.

Indeed.

Often we only have 1 shadowpriest that the healers often get prio on, and doing Magtheridon is an ordeal if I want to perform well in that case. Firstly, JoW simply has to be applied, or I can just as well give up and go /afk.

Often, I just don't have the option to chug a healing potion, simply because of cooldowns. Healthstone is often also not available, because I need to use that cooldown for dark runes/gems. As a mage, we often have some of the smallest HP pools in the raid, and this lessened survability really bothers me. Having bandage as the only option @ 30% at Magtheridon doesn't sit well with me.

Nezralix · 06/14/07, 4:40 PM

I don't know if it's broken, but there is a bit of a scaling issue here. Spells really don't cost that much more than they did pre-TBC (Rank 12 Renew is 450 mana while Rank 10 is 410), but everyone has something like 75% more mana regen on their gear (on average). In other words, mana regen is comparatively more powerful than it was pre-TBC, and presumably this will continue in further expansions.

EDIT: I would say the only reason people don't notice this quite as much is that, in general, people are blowing through mana faster due to the disproportionate increase in incoming damage (presumably a result of the stamina change). However, a side effect is that people without healing gear heal that much more poorly.

• Shifft · 06/14/07, 4:41 PM

Honestly, for most fights if you only have one shadow priest they should be given to the mages, reason being that healers can sustain themselves with chain potting, while mages can use their potion cooldowns on destruction potions, but only if they have a good shadow priest.

Atalantia · 06/14/07, 5:31 PM

How about making mage gems more like healthstones? With little difference though.

Make the reagent 1-5 arcane powder.
Make a crystal formation spawn after a 10second cast.
Crystal will have 10-15 charges.
*Mana gems for everybody will trigger the potion cooldown.

Optional:
Simliar to trinkets, the crystal could have a 5-10 min cooldown itself, but it will trigger the 2 min potion cooldown.

*Or make it on the same cooldown for everybody besides mages, and mages will keep everything as is.

Its not perfect, but it will give mages some nice raid utility and would be easier than a complete overhaul.

ps: make hunter aspects auras too

Larisroth · 06/14/07, 6:41 PM

I'm not sure it's the last broken mechanic, I can thing of several others relating to feral druids alone that really need to be fixed

Forcing people to chain chug potions is pretty lame really, whether it's protection potions, armour potions for tanks, or mana potions on healers (and ranged dps). Yes changing the mechanic (by say decreasing their effectivenesss or increasing the cooldown) would require rebalancing, but it's hardly likely to be worse than that required for balancing of the general alchemy nerf. One option would be to give all mana using classes a low throughput option much like when warlocks go oom.

The funny thing about the gear is no-one really wants regen on their gear, both forms of it are pretty ineffective for the budget cost. So perhaps a slight buffing of the regen rates might work. The alchemy stone presents a bit of a problem as well, 40% extra seems a little bit too much of a nice boost.

Northerner · 06/14/07, 6:49 PM

Originally Posted by Atalantia

How about making mage gems more like healthstones? With little difference though.

Make the reagent 1-5 arcane powder.
Make a crystal formation spawn after a 10second cast.
Crystal will have 10-15 charges.
*Mana gems for everybody will trigger the potion cooldown.

Optional:
Simliar to trinkets, the crystal could have a 5-10 min cooldown itself, but it will trigger the 2 min potion cooldown.

*Or make it on the same cooldown for everybody besides mages, and mages will keep everything as is.

Its not perfect, but it will give mages some nice raid utility and would be easier than a complete overhaul.

ps: make hunter aspects auras too

Respectfully, I can only say no but thanks for the thought. Mana gems already really are not that great (you'd be better off with the freely dropping raid-only potions) and if I got a "mana-gem well" before a "water well", the carnage would be legendary. Besides, I don't really want to carry even more reagents around.

I agree that chain-chugging mana potions is a regrettable mechanic but it's one I can live with by now I guess, although of course I'd like to have a free gem/HS or potion timer someday. It's more a shame that they don't stack in 20s than anything at this point.

Gauss · 06/14/07, 7:13 PM

Originally Posted by Larisroth

The funny thing about the gear is no-one really wants regen on their gear, both forms of it are pretty ineffective for the budget cost.

I'm pretty sure I'm the only dps in my guild who favors regen, and it shows by my gear choice. Sometimes I wonder if I am wrong in my decision to do things such as use a lot of spirit gear and mage armor, but I am pretty competetive in dps and rarely have to pot.

I recall spirit being nerfed in effectiveness quite a bit between beta and live, so I doubt it will get fixed sadly.

Atalantia · 06/14/07, 8:14 PM

Originally Posted by Northerner

Respectfully, I can only say no but thanks for the thought. Mana gems already really are not that great (you'd be better off with the freely dropping raid-only potions) and if I got a "mana-gem well" before a "water well", the carnage would be legendary. Besides, I don't really want to carry even more reagents around.

I agree that chain-chugging mana potions is a regrettable mechanic but it's one I can live with by now I guess, although of course I'd like to have a free gem/HS or potion timer someday. It's more a shame that they don't stack in 20s than anything at this point.

Would 1 extra arcane powder (if i got the reagent wrong I mean the one you use for AB) per boss be that bad? Keep in mind with my ideas only one of the 2-4 mages would drop a "well" per attempt.

BTW, after looking at my raid right now the well should have 20-25 charges.

Cads · 06/14/07, 8:16 PM

I am a well-geared shadow priest and I have to chain pot despite VT. I accept it as a part of my job; as a healer at 60 I had to chain pot on many encounters as well. Of course I am opposed to VT being nerfed, but mostly because I have to chain pot as it is and I rely on this mana regen to get me through long fights. The balance is kind of weird - Whether I'm in a healer group or a DPS caster group, my mana depletes far faster than the rest of the party. Half the game for me as a DPS'er is managing my consumable cooldowns. If I'm 15 seconds late on a mana pot, I just screwed myself out of a lot of damage in what could be a DPS race. I actually enjoy this element as a challenge.

I don't mind this state of affairs. I accept it. But if anything is to change, I would look at the mana cost of spells and the effect of intellect and spirit, ie more mana gained per point of intellect and more regen gained per point of spirit.

mek · 06/14/07, 8:38 PM

Originally Posted by Teez

I frankly don't see any viable way of changing the mana regen model right now - neither by changing the mechanic, nor by changing the gear, nor by changing the consumables.

That's simply a failure of imagination. Add a new skill for every class with a mana bar, trainable at level 10, called Meditation. Stuns you for 4 seconds and restores a percentage of base mana, scaled appropriately so it is exactly equal to a super mana potion at lvl 70. 2 minute cooldown.

Now the only advantage to super mana potions is the lack of a minor stun; this is significant enough to give them the edge on the latest boss you are trying to defeat, but negligible enough to be eaten on any other content. DPS classes will continue to use mana potions in small quantities, for that extra boost (since stun is particularly bad for them) but raid healers can mostly rely on the new Meditation skill.

Plea · 06/14/07, 8:48 PM

In a combat where casters have to keep chugging potions; so should the others. The marginal benefit from the money I put on a str potion I get is a lot lower than a mage gets from a mana potion, the benefit from the str pot is half an elixir and definitely not four times a flask, nbut they are four times as expensive for sure. If they were cheaper / more powerful, then every warrior/rogue would gladly be chain chugging potions too. While I understand that mana users have this problem to deal with, others dont even have a reasonable potion to cry about.

Oh, and this was the dps point of view; tank consumables possibly will not be discussed as most guilds supply them. But some do not, and it hurts more than you think it does.

Tacitus · 06/14/07, 9:09 PM

Originally Posted by Plea

In a combat where casters have to keep chugging potions; so should the others. The marginal benefit from the money I put on a str potion I get is a lot lower than a mage gets from a mana potion, the benefit from the str pot is half an elixir and definitely not four times a flask, nbut they are four times as expensive for sure. If they were cheaper / more powerful, then every warrior/rogue would gladly be chain chugging potions too. While I understand that mana users have this problem to deal with, others dont even have a reasonable potion to cry about.

Oh, and this was the dps point of view; tank consumables possibly will not be discussed as most guilds supply them. But some do not, and it hurts more than you think it does.

So, you actually want melee to suffer from chain-chuggin as well? Where's the logic in that, given that we're discussing how broken the mana pot chugging is.

Not that it matters to me, I chugged my last pot like a month ago >_>

constantius · 06/14/07, 9:16 PM

What about the destruction potions and haste potions? Do those compare in terms of the dps they allow you to put out with mana pots for casters?

Zerakor · 06/14/07, 9:21 PM

Originally Posted by mek

That's simply a failure of imagination. Add a new skill for every class with a mana bar, trainable at level 10, called Meditation. Stuns you for 4 seconds and restores a percentage of base mana, scaled appropriately so it is exactly equal to a super mana potion at lvl 70. 2 minute cooldown.

Now the only advantage to super mana potions is the lack of a minor stun; this is significant enough to give them the edge on the latest boss you are trying to defeat, but negligible enough to be eaten on any other content. DPS classes will continue to use mana potions in small quantities, for that extra boost (since stun is particularly bad for them) but raid healers can mostly rely on the new Meditation skill.

Interesting idea, I like it. It probably wont happen as it would diminish alchemy even more, but as a raid healer.. Well yeah!