TheRealJon

Hey cool I didn't even know these existed.

 

BeeLz

That's basically what I said in my first post, for mages regen stats are just too expensive in itembudget to be considered above dmg/hit/crit.
But that doesn't change the fact that spirit is a really usefull stat for mages and has great potential if there was good damage gear with a good amount of spirit.

 

Northerner

All things are relative.

Is Spirit a useful statistic? Of course, to some degree. Is it useful in the ratio that it exists and costs on present gear? I would say generally no. The math has been done over and over and it's just not typically a good expenditure of the item budget for current raiding situations. I'd go as far as to say that as long as shadow priests exist and mana potions can be chugged, it is essentially obsolete. Even if I could mystically sacrifice 10% of my dps potential for twice (or frankly, pick a multiple of) my mana regeneration, it wouldn't really matter because the only raiding effect would be to free up shadow priests and to allow me to cast silly things like AB spam forever. I can already last out fights given the tools I have and I already cannot deal more damage by increasing spirit and removing one of those two primary tools. Not chugging potions doesn't help anyone else and while freeing up shadow priests is attractive, at that point I am even more replaceable by a superior dps source that is not spirit laden.

It's a long and much debated argument in the mage community though and probably is best covered (yet again) in the monstrosity that is the Mage thread in the Class forums. I'm not going to clutter up this topical discussion with even more class-specific business however.

Although I may sound argumentative by the way, I do understand that we are not in fundamental disagreement.

 

Fugazor

So you saying that need of SP in group and chugging mana potions is ok? It is not at all.

One simple fix could be removal of all mana potions in game and increase mana regeneration of all mana classes, scaled by level (to amount of mp5 that mana pots currently gives).

Do non-mana classes are forced to have SP and chugging mana potions? No. Then why mana users need to?

Honestly speaking mana bar is relic of the past. If you look at some more advanced mmo games you: a) do not have pots (Guild Wars) or b) do not have mana bar at all (WAR).

 

Ukerric

It will be nerfed at one point. It's one of the few items that are still %-based, and Blizzard has learned that %-based is bad, as people will keep them forever; or until they introduce the new Transmuter Stone which gives 50% more mana/hp.

(ok, they can get away with making a new stone next expansion, which has the same %, but 20 in all stats and 5mana/5s instead... but the point is: they have to make one, or the current one is one item slot that no one will ever replace)

 

Zzbzq

I think the idea was to give alchemists a little boost from their profession compared to just choosing a different prof. and using the auction house. It's an analogue to BoP or requires tailoring (339) or what have you. The stone is only an issue insofar as the chain-potting is.

I favor a potion overdose solution. And if it leaves mana regen too lacking: spirit, moonkings and retnoobs look awful lonely over there in the corner.

 

mek

Bit of a derail, but this isn't true at all. The concept of "mana" is essentially "resource management," and it's a way of limiting actions without resorting to cooldowns. It's good when used meaningfully; in the case of healers it generally is, but consumables + shadowpriest make the mechanic largely meaningless, beyond its moneysink aspect.

A good example of "bad" mana implementation is hunters. For hunters it's purely a PvE inconvenience which makes the "sustained dps class" bad at what it's supposed to be good at. If priests didn't have mana bars they'd just spam PoH and max rank gheal all day and it'd be fairly stupid; if hunters/mages/warlocks didn't have mana bars, their playstyle wouldn't change at ALL (in single-target scenarios; their aoe dps would go through the roof, admittedly) - they'd just drink less potions and not bitch when they're not in a spriest group. The mana bar is there to add complexity to gameplay, but it's almost completely circumvented by gold and min/maxing.

If you want me to QQ about some other game, EQ2's "power" is even more poorly implemented. Virtually every skill in the game has a cooldown, and running out of power is virtually impossible, so you just spam every button you possibly can to kill, heal, whatever. In raids, power is rendered completely meaningless by various spriest-like abilities doled out to various classes. Enchanters actually lower themselves to sub-30% power BEFORE COMBAT BEGINS and try to stay there, as their damage increases when they're "running low," which ends up being all the time.

At some point in WoW's lifetime we just gave up on managing mana and decided to circumvent it. Remember actually doing things like "healing rotations" on Golemagg (right after they nerfed FoL spam)? Having healers standing around doing nothing is asking for a wipe, nowadays - because the developers noticed that we'd successfully circumvented mana as a limiting mechanic, and started balancing encounters accordingly. This is why alternative systems like rage, energy, focus(lol?!?) and stuff like EVE Online's capacitor are generally much better than mana because they can serve different purposes and add complexity in different ways; complimenting a class' playstyle rather than being at odds with it.

 

Nitz

mek, you just made me realise how meaningless the mana concept in WoW is.

 

Shan

Mana potions are required for certain classes to fulfill their role in a raid. That part is broken.

I mean, what would you say if your tank was guaranteed to die somewhere at 40% to 30% of the bosses HP? Always, without any way to avoid it?

That analogy is a bit extreme, but without mana potions a shadow priest becomes nearly useless at some point during the boss fight. He can still keep shadoweaving and misery up but the other half of his utility (VE and VT) will be gone along with most of his damage.
The same is true for other mana using dps classes, to a lesser extent for hunters.


As for mana potions and healers, I honestly think that it is not a bad idea that healing is less about mana conservation nowadays. Potions are however a greay way to help you keep going in situations where you need to do a lot of healing for extended periods.


Spirit and Mp5 is a whole different matter. I view spirit as an obsolete stat. Yes, I'm a holy priest.

 

Kegsta

Why not let alchemists create a in combat drinkable Drink, would be great for farm content, or for fights with multiple phases, and for DPS with just no other way to regenerate mana and potting just isn't enough sometimes. It would basicly be the same as dreamless sleep potions you can use whenever. Sitting doing nothing for 24 seconds is a fair price to pay for 1/2 a mana bar imo.

As for alchemy itself, all they need to do to fix it is make the alchemists stone upgradable to be an awsome trinket, as currently only healers can use it without effectivly removing a trinket slot.

e.g. Alchemist Stone of the Sorcerer
+30 Stam
+30 Int
+50 Damage and healing
+40% Effect on Pots/exilers/flasks

 

subbawt

You're right. It would be exactly like a dreamless sleep potion.

The Alchemist stone is already completely ridiculous in any situation where you are chugging Super Mana Potions. If anything, maybe adding a few sockets to it would make it somewhat more appealing to non-healers.

 

MeCh

Whats the point of having other beneficial potions if all your pot cooldowns are used for mana pots?

 

• constantius

The point of other potions is that sometimes, you don't *need* that mana.

Now, for the following people in the raid, that will never be true:
- healing priests
- healing paladins
- healing druids
- healing shamans
- any dps caster who is *not* a warlock or in a shadow priest group with VT

First, assume we're talking about mana users. Then, assume that we differentiate between a mana user in a group with a shadow priest (VT = win), and one without. Then assume that we ignore protection paladins (Stoneshield would be the potion of choice there, or Ironshield if you're rich).

Who are you left with?
- mages (SP)
- shadow priests
- boomkins (SP)
- ele shamans
- ret paladins
- warlocks in general

So if you assume that mana is not an issue, the only casters blowing non-mana pots on their 2 minute cooldown are warlocks, boomkins, mages, and ele shamans. Once you remove the SP from their group, the best choice for that cooldown, in almost all situations, is a Super Mana potion.

Because OOM casters do 0 dps.

Now, there is a possible exception to this rule. Let's say Hydross just hit 20% (for example), you just got a potion cooldown up, and there's 1:20 left in the fight before enrage. What should you blow?

Two choices: a destruction potion, or a Super Mana. And it really comes down to your personal judgement call. The optimal solution is: whichever lets you do more damage, net. And blowing a 15 second buff potion and promptly running out of mana is categorically worse than blowing a Super Mana potion and (for example, as a mage) spamming Arcane Blast until the mob dies.

So unless you can point to "other beneficial potions" that mean a spit in the wind for a caster, of course we're going to chain-chug Super Manas. Why not? It's the only game in town.

(as a healer, there is nothing, repeat *nothing* to blow on that 2 minute timer except a mana consumable of some sort. If there were "destruction"-style potions that increased regen or healing, I'd consider it -- right now, it's mindless -- timer's up, CLICK)

 

Icywolf

If I use Haste potion, my DPS LOWERS, not increases...

So yeah, mana pot is the potion. Or Fel Mana Potion, to be precise.
I really think they should revalue the cost of mp5 on gear. Just the net gain from pot is really too strong.

 

• Binkenstein

Except that Healers using some sort of destruction style potion would have to save it for emergency healing, and would have to be more valuable than using the GCD on a mana pot.

It's like all those +heal on-use trinkets that are out there. Unless you have some Earth Shield/Healing Stream mechanic it's pretty hard to decide when to use it.

 

Schneeb

Pretty sure pots dont cause a GCD on anything other than other consumables

 

• constantius

Even if a pot doesn't use a GCD, it uses a <chunk of time that resembles a GCD>.

We run most content with 6 healers in the raid, and at that sort of stress-level, I rarely get a leisurely chance to evaluate my cooldowns and casually click a potion. Instead, I'm spamming GH, and I wait for one to go off successfully, and if it tops up the tank, I have my mouse hovering over the Super mana stack on my consumable bar, and spam it until it goes off, then immediately start a new heal.

The time it takes from finishing the GH, clicking the potion, and getting another heal started, is roughly less than the GCD, but not a significant amount less. Figure 0.7-0.9 seconds.

If they really wanted it to be easy to use, make blowing a potion not an "action" -- make it like switching a weapon. Then I could wait until I started a GH, and blow the potion in the middle. Same goes for trinkets.

 

Northerner

The same goes for starting your next spell =)

I've been advocating a .5s-1s 1-deep spell/action queue since beta but I'm quite certain it'll never happen at this point.

 

Banelion

Er what? A Paladin's main job is to stand there and chain cast on a single target anyway. They very rarely go out of mana due to Illumination, and have what's normally the highest overhealing because they can afford it mana-wise. Every class ? Okay. But a paladin? Not from my experience, at the end of most bosses I see the paladins with easily half mana left, and they don't chain chug.

As I said though, my experience.

[18:33] <FalkFalkFalk> did you know that if you zone into Hyjal with both Warglaives of Azzinoth
[18:33] <FalkFalkFalk> Furion Stormrage appears and says "Where did you get that? Did HE send you?"
[18:33] <FalkFalkFalk> optional Mt Hyjal boss
---
[17:59] <JamesVZ> i jerk off to my TPS during evocate

 

Eloderung

As a healer, I can't remember the last time I used a mana potion on a farm-status fight. Astromancer, perhaps, but that's only due to the flash heal spam required to safely top off arcane missile targets. I have this very large buildup of super mana potions that I can't seem to get rid of, ever since the introduction of "free" potions from trash.

Hell, we've seen 50%+ overheal across the board on our recent Kael'thas attempts, and none of us are even using flasks or potions. I know Kael'thas isn't a mana-intensive fight for healers, but the above seems true of any encounter in the game whenever our healing team actually cares about mana efficiency. (Note that we are not in BT yet).

 

ebbv

In 2.1 Blizzard had the opportunity to simply change potions to a 10 minute cooldown and retune the encounters to require this lesser mana use (much as they had tuned them up to require/expect potion use.)

They didn't take this, probably because they were already "nerfing" Alchemy so much. They went for this lame "free" potion band aid.

At this point I'm just dealing with the system as is, and hoping that it will be changed when the next expansion comes out, I highly doubt it will change before then.


In answer to 2 separate concerns I saw in this thread. Potion Mastery is useful for something besides SMPs, and Mages can have their Potion cooldown available to restore health. Super Rejuvenation Potions make me feel warm and cuddly. I discovered the recipe on my Druid a couple weeks ago and I carry about 30 at all times on my Mage (along with at least one Injector of each type.)

 

Cryect

Heh, Mek is like the perfect person to hire for a MMO if you want to hear why all the old traditions etc are bad and how better to replace them.

I need to do something useless.

 

Kiklion

:-( so true. I currently bring 10 major mana, 20 super mana and 30-40 fel mana potions to every raid. I am a BM hunter usually (trying out MM atm for pvp but my bow speed sucks for it) so i can fit into a Spriest group, however those usually go to healers. If im in a melee dps group, feral druid, war, hunter, x ,x, then i need to chug mana pots all the time. A quick question to other guilds who are futher along, how do your pallies do in keeping JoW up? I almost never see this up in my guild and repeatedly call for it. The effect JoW has on a raids dps is incredible, yet no one bothers to use the 1.5 seconds to use it every 20 seconds (judgement is off the GCD fyi)

As a hunter, Int, spirit and mana/5 all can give me mana regen. However if i use a steady/auto macro purely i am using 247.5 mana / 5. A little less since my bow speed isnt optimal so its 2.1 seconds i believe per rotation not 2, but lets use that #. BoW gives me 50 mana / 5. Fel mana potions give me 133.3 mana/5. Given that JoW has a 50% proc rate, that would be 185 mana/5... that seems wrong... 79 mana / proc, 50% chance to proc, procs on average once every 2 seconds assuming 1 shot/second, guess not. Anyway, my point being that without JoW chain popping fel mana potions and using BoW means that I will need to use AotV once i hit about 500 mana. (not hard to imagine 260 int raid buffed with AI, kings, and mark wich would give me enough mana to break even on mana spent/5 and mana consumed/5 assuming no KC's or arcane shots)

JoW therefor not only allows a hunter to not spend as much on fel mana potions, but also gives them 155 ap and, spec deciding, a chance at IAotH wich has been found to be upto a 15% dps increase when it procs (depending on spec and weapon speed... curse you hunter mechanics)

That may of all been offtopic, but yes mana:regen is a broken mechanic. I can substitute Multishot or arcane shot for a steady shot every now and then in order to do a little more damage (multishot will soon not even do more since it scales slower the Steady in relation to AP) at the cost of a dramatic damage/mana cost. Without an ability that increases dps but decreases dpm mana regen is a broken mechanic. With an ability like that, say AB, then mana regen isn't broken. Spirit and mana/5 may be, but potions and other mana regenning way's are fine in that it more mana regen will increase damage by allowing you to use less efficient spells.

 

mek

And Cryect just tries to stick Mode7 in everything!

 

Feorthas

If WoW did head towards the "Ticks of regen (are more important than your mana pool)" system that guild wars has, I can see things becoming more interesting but short of that, nothing aside from a full redesign of trinkets (or something similar) would really help.

Personally, I'm a fan of Guild Wars' mana/health regen/degen system; it was elegant in it's simplicity and making it possible for players to interact with that system through buffs, debuffs, and other modifiers made the checks and balances between the classes all the more interesting.

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.