How long until encounters are balanced around every caster having a pocket shadow priest?
Kind of reminds me of the same situation with mass consumables. "Well, a raid group could use mass consumables, therefore we balance assuming all those factors". The result was a change of "mass consumables" to "one flask per raid member" for consumables. Now do we get to see a statement from Blizzard about "encounters will be balanced around 2 shadow priests" or some other such number?
Probably not, but the power difference between raid with spriests and raid without spriests is pretty huge, on the order of how consumable power is used to buff raids.
The Priest PvP spec of the moment is actually fairly deep Holy (Blessed Resilience). Shadow can work decently in an arena, but is only particularly effective if you have UA handy in your team.
I mean solo/world pvp. Arenas are irrelevant as they're a meta game within warcraft whereas world pvp is at the heart of warcraft on a pvp server.
Originally Posted by Endahl
p.s. When do warriors become "a choice the raid leader makes, not a necessity the raid leader has to make room for" (as you put it)? I don't necessarily disagree with the statement, but I found it terribly ironic coming from a person of your class choice.
Warriors that are a necessity are warriors that are on the opposite of shadow priests. They're little gimp-balls that have given themselves up for the greater pve good so their shadow priest friends can gather face-melting gear. (or curses himself to an existance of farming just to enjoy his character between raids on 100g respecs)
As an aside ferals and paladins aren't the irrelevant choices in all cases that you may think.
As an aside ferals and paladins aren't the irrelevant choices in all cases that you may think.
I don't think they're irrelevant at all, and my guild has more ferals and prot paladins than it does prot warriors. That doesn't change the extent to which warriors dominate tanking. Shadow priests don't dominate the caster DPS slot, which is interesting considering the (dated) theorycrafting about raiding with mainly spriest groups as your caster DPS. Shadow priests being "unbalanced" is a highly relative statement and it takes a bit more thought that just nerfing VT to fix the underlying problem. That approach would just bring an even greater emphasis on mana pot cooldowns.
Warriors that are a necessity are warriors that are on the opposite of shadow priests. They're little gimp-balls that have given themselves up for the greater pve good
Quaint, but that's an issue with the Protection tree and not with shadow priests. Given the Devastate-with-both-weapons thing a while back I'm sure Blizzard realizes the Prot tree needs a soloing bone just like shadow priests needed a raid bone. Regardless of soloing viability no class should be consistently required and preferred over others, for mana regen abilities, tanking, or otherwise.
Last edited by Endahl : 06/28/07 at 5:35 PM.
Reason: That analogy really was too obscure, wasn't it
Warriors that are a necessity are warriors that are on the opposite of shadow priests. They're little gimp-balls that have given themselves up for the greater pve good so their shadow priest friends can gather face-melting gear. (or curses himself to an existance of farming just to enjoy his character between raids on 100g respecs)
Having a couple of shadowpriests are also for the "greater pve good". You make it sound like warriors are martyrs who sacrifice themselves so that priests can run around and raid with "pvp speccs" and that is just not the case. While the PvP and PvE shadowspecc share one vital denominator (the shadow tree) they both lack certain key talents to be optimal for both PvE and PvP.
Quite. Time to get back to the topic of the thread, warriors are irrelevant in every way to the mana regen discussion.
It is relevant, because you are the one saying that shadow priests shouldn't be a required feature in raids. Why should one class be optional for a role, while another class is absolutley required for one?
Its pretty clear that without the huge mana regeneration ability of shadow priests, they would probably fall to the obscurity that is the ret paladin.
The problem is that mage dps (with the exception of pure AB spamming) is already balanced with the expectation that the mage is chain casting his best dps rotation. We're balanced to do X% less single target damage compared to a rogue/warlock/other dps class based on the assumption of going all out dam/hit/crit gear and chain casting. If I as a mage decides that I want to wear gear that has regen but less dam/hit/crit, stop casting on every clearcasting so I can switch to AM, etc., I will lower my dps even more. It's the fundamental flaw of balancing a class limited by mana on the assumption that said class forsakes everything for damage but can still chain cast. As a mage, you're either chain casting or doing really poor dps.
Another issue is the scaling of the mana cost of AoE spells and abilities. When I first hit 60 back in Feb 2005, hitting 3 mobs with an IAE is better dpm than single targetting them with fireball. Nowadays, I need to hit 5-6 mobs with an IAE before it's better dpm than single targetting them with fireball. On fights where mages need to AoE, mana is really a huge issue.
The only way, I think, to use mana as a limiting factor is to balance mana users, especially the more limited ones like mages and hunters, to do more dps while using mana. VT and potions would have to be nerfed if this is the case, as well as countless other mana regen abilities. However, in this scenario, length of the fight would have a really huge effect on who does the most damage.
Mages are not the only people with mana issues. As you hinted in your post, hunters also have issues with mana. They can't stop for efficiency. They can't choose to FD and drink, because it will hurt their intended dps. If they choose to get mp5 gear, they will be wasting a large portion of their item budget for a relativly small boost to their efficiency. Many hunters don't use aspect of the viper because it makes them do less overall damage.
You can make the same argument for elemental shaman not using chain lightning and shocks, for moonkin druids not wrath spamming without a shadow priest, for shadow priests not spamming shadow word death and mindblast every cooldown. All dps casters who rely on mana need to maximize their dps. They almost all need shadow priests in order to do desired amounts of dps, and most of them drink pots on every cooldown too.
Furthermore, your suggestions for a purge of mana regeneration abilities is a bit one sided. Your proposed changes will hurt all mana using classes. Having the cooldown of mana pots and mana regeneration abilities will hurt paladins, druids, priests,and shaman. You can't change a mechanic that affects 6 classes to only cater to 2.
While I understand that mages do have mana issues, the devs do too. Thats why they put a small amount spirit in to mage tiered gear. Dungeon 3, Tier 4, Tier 5, Tier 6, they all have levels of spirit on them. I've pretty sure that the devs have an idea of where mage dps should be, and balances the sets accordingly.
As you can see from my posts, I don't think mana regeneration is broken. Some classes might need the mana efficiency of their spells tinkered with, others might need their regeneration models nerfed(warlocks), but thats a few changes, not a complete overhall.
It is relevant, because you are the one saying that shadow priests shouldn't be a required feature in raids. Why should one class be optional for a role, while another class is absolutley required for one?
Its pretty clear that without the huge mana regeneration ability of shadow priests, they would probably fall to the obscurity that is the ret paladin.
Part of the problem that is linked to chain potting and VT that has not been talked about a lot is that regen on gear is pointless. And that is a big problem as well. solutions?:
-tweaking spirit via talent changes or mechanics
-nerfing mana pots
-nerfing VT
If this happens spirit and mana regen on gear will be worth something. Because as it is now it only feels like wasted item budget.
Well, part of the reason the MP5 on gear is so lackluster in comparison (in fact, the major reason) is because of the disproportionate amount of MP5 you get by chain-chugging SMPs on every CD.
It's the single thing that wasn't done to change Alchemy that probably should have been done. However, it's not intrinsically an Alchemy problem, just a place where you see it.
I don't advocate the nerfing of SMPs, I advocate the buffing of MP5 / Spirit allocation on gear. And I don't mean I want it by taking other useful stats away - I want the Item Budget value for Spirit / MP5 (but mostly Spirit) to decrease so that they can fit more on items.
Mages are not the only people with mana issues. As you hinted in your post, hunters also have issues with mana. They can't stop for efficiency. They can't choose to FD and drink, because it will hurt their intended dps. If they choose to get mp5 gear, they will be wasting a large portion of their item budget for a relativly small boost to their efficiency. Many hunters don't use aspect of the viper because it makes them do less overall damage.
You can make the same argument for elemental shaman not using chain lightning and shocks, for moonkin druids not wrath spamming without a shadow priest, for shadow priests not spamming shadow word death and mindblast every cooldown. All dps casters who rely on mana need to maximize their dps. They almost all need shadow priests in order to do desired amounts of dps, and most of them drink pots on every cooldown too.
Furthermore, your suggestions for a purge of mana regeneration abilities is a bit one sided. Your proposed changes will hurt all mana using classes. Having the cooldown of mana pots and mana regeneration abilities will hurt paladins, druids, priests,and shaman. You can't change a mechanic that affects 6 classes to only cater to 2.
While I understand that mages do have mana issues, the devs do too. Thats why they put a small amount spirit in to mage tiered gear. Dungeon 3, Tier 4, Tier 5, Tier 6, they all have levels of spirit on them. I've pretty sure that the devs have an idea of where mage dps should be, and balances the sets accordingly.
As you can see from my posts, I don't think mana regeneration is broken. Some classes might need the mana efficiency of their spells tinkered with, others might need their regeneration models nerfed(warlocks), but thats a few changes, not a complete overhall.
I just don't see how mages get to be competitive on dps wearing gear with a decent amount of spirit on it. Unless they change how much regen spirit gives, mages who wear dps gear that have minimal stats and regen and chain chug pots will outdps mages wearing balanced gear by a mile. The mage sets still need a very powerful set bonus before anybody would actually wear them. The class is just too dependant on a pocket shadow priest.
Well, part of the reason the MP5 on gear is so lackluster in comparison (in fact, the major reason) is because of the disproportionate amount of MP5 you get by chain-chugging SMPs on every CD.
It's the single thing that wasn't done to change Alchemy that probably should have been done. However, it's not intrinsically an Alchemy problem, just a place where you see it.
I don't advocate the nerfing of SMPs, I advocate the buffing of MP5 / Spirit allocation on gear. And I don't mean I want it by taking other useful stats away - I want the Item Budget value for Spirit / MP5 (but mostly Spirit) to decrease so that they can fit more on items.
Hmm. Opportunity for a middle way here? How about if mana pots functioned essentially as mini-Evocations? That would render regen on gear useful, while still making mana pots useful. Would also allow interesting synergies - you make sure you take a mana pot just before you Evocate/Innervate, so one can boost the other.
Trouble is, it's not clear how that would pan out with different ranks of mana pot at different levels, and might affect the levelling game and/or low level PvP.
Hmm. Opportunity for a middle way here? How about if mana pots functioned essentially as mini-Evocations? That would render regen on gear useful, while still making mana pots useful. Would also allow interesting synergies - you make sure you take a mana pot just before you Evocate/Innervate, so one can boost the other.
Trouble is, it's not clear how that would pan out with different ranks of mana pot at different levels, and might affect the levelling game and/or low level PvP.
No, I'm pretty sure I just want more Spirit / MP5 on the gear I currently have. I don't really want a new mechanic or anything, because all that's just fluff that complicates things. If they just reduce the Item Budget value of Spirit by 1/2, that would go quite a long way in my eyes to balancing the books for Mage regen.
Hmm. Opportunity for a middle way here? How about if mana pots functioned essentially as mini-Evocations? That would render regen on gear useful, while still making mana pots useful. Would also allow interesting synergies - you make sure you take a mana pot just before you Evocate/Innervate, so one can boost the other.
Trouble is, it's not clear how that would pan out with different ranks of mana pot at different levels, and might affect the levelling game and/or low level PvP.
You'd probably still want them to do some sort of instant mana return as well, so that if you need to drin k a mana potion as an "oh crap, I'm out of mana and I need to iceblock/blink/polymorph" you can(and then you can spend some time not casting and regenning mana)
But I like the general idea a lot. Any way to make the "longevity" gear into actual longevity gear.
Wonder if shadow priests could do the same? Not sure how that would work given that it's supposed to be based on damage. Increase your spirit based on damage they do? So that it then turns around and works with potions/other regen tricks?
Wonder if shadow priests could do the same? Not sure how that would work given that it's supposed to be based on damage. Increase your spirit based on damage they do? So that it then turns around and works with potions/other regen tricks?
if you look at shadow priests tier 5 and 6 you see a lot of spirit and Mp5, 2 peice bonus on tier5 is also a mana regen bonus.
Now it seems odd currently to lose damage to go for regen (switching from tailoring to tier5 for example) but it would be a lot more logic if they increased the value of regen from gear. (by nerfing current mana regen from outside sources --by this i mean pots and VT--) or at the very least nerfing the tailoring sets and give us back some damage to revert the past few class nerfs we suffered.
Nerfing the tailoring would also indicate a clearer progression in gear going to tier5.
about increasing the value of spirit on gear, they can change the mecanics by giving everyclass a default 50% mana regen in combat that would stack with other talents like meditation or mage armor. that would be a lot easier than to modify the item budget of spirit and going tru all the items in the game.
a clear buff to spirit mecanics would have to come with a nerf to pots or VT or both. imo
No, I'm pretty sure I just want more Spirit / MP5 on the gear I currently have. I don't really want a new mechanic or anything, because all that's just fluff that complicates things. If they just reduce the Item Budget value of Spirit by 1/2, that would go quite a long way in my eyes to balancing the books for Mage regen.
Or, leaving the item budgets as-is, and making a small adjustment as to the amount of spirit that would be equal to 1mp5 outside the 5 second rule.
Honestly, the simplest fix, and the one that makes absolutely the most sense is to just get rid of either Spirit or MP5 and give all classes the same mechanic for regen (i.e. either make Mage's regen, and specifically Evocation, be based on MP5 (also Priests), OR allow the classes who don't use Spirit as much, i.e. Paladins/Shamans/Hunters/Druids/Warlocks some regen based on Spirit inside the FSR).
I mean, come on, I guess it's nice to have variety, but it's causing more problems than it's worth. While some might enjoy the choice that having 2 mechanics inhibits, I'm simply unhappy with it, and I think most people feel the same.
A buff to spirit would be pointless to Shamans & Paladins however, keep that in mind.
Unless of course the fix was to up the default spirit regen while casting percentage, which would disadvantage pallies and shamans but not leave them completely out in the cold.
How about linking the regeneration from mana potions & vampiric touch to "mana regen when not casting" (aka the mana regen reported on character sheet which combines both spirit & mp5). Just a thought.
Its pretty clear that without the huge mana regeneration ability of shadow priests, they would probably fall to the obscurity that is the ret paladin.
Because no raid benefits from 10% increased shadow damage and 5% increased spell damage, right? And they still put out DPS comperable to most every other ranged DPS class.
Because no raid benefits from 10% increased shadow damage and 5% increased spell damage, right? And they still put out DPS comperable to most every other ranged DPS class.
While you are correct that Misery and Shadow Weaving are buffs any RL would feel hard to part with, you need a single SP to apply them.
As a raiding SP it's pretty obvious that VT is broken, however I'm loathed to admit it, as it is also my ticket into raids. A suggestion (which has likely been made before) would be to have VT apply to the shadowpriest and let you place a 'buff' onto any raid/group member who also gets the effect. That way, I'm not providing 1500mp/5 to my group and instead get to channel mana where the raid needs it. It'd make playing a shadowpriest more challenging (how low are the healers? AoE'ing mages lom or can I mana-up the resto shaman before I top those guys up?), and it'd go some way to making raid mana management important again, instead of simply throwing more shadowpriests at an encounter designed with max dps burn/constant raid-wide spamhealing in mind.
A suggestion (which has likely been made before) would be to have VT apply to the shadowpriest and let you place a 'buff' onto any raid/group member who also gets the effect. That way, I'm not providing 1500mp/5 to my group and instead get to channel mana where the raid needs it. It'd make playing a shadowpriest more challenging (how low are the healers? AoE'ing mages lom or can I mana-up the resto shaman before I top those guys up?), and it'd go some way to making raid mana management important again, instead of simply throwing more shadowpriests at an encounter designed with max dps burn/constant raid-wide spamhealing in mind.
That's the worst idea yet. Changing shadow priests in that way would only increase the demand for them. Rather than bringing a rogue or fury warrior bring a shadow priest to fill up the mana dpser or healer's tank while simultaneously doing extremely competitive dps
Trying to figure out ways to work within the broken framework of the game as it is right now seems to me to be the incorrect vector. The way blizzard has encounters designed needs to be rethought in regards to mana along with the regeneration problems addressed. (changing the 5 second rule drastically and shortening encounters to a point where int actually mattered would help, too)
That's the worst idea yet. Changing shadow priests in that way would only increase the demand for them. Rather than bringing a rogue or fury warrior bring a shadow priest to fill up the mana dpser or healer's tank while simultaneously doing extremely competitive dps
Trying to figure out ways to work within the broken framework of the game as it is right now seems to me to be the incorrect vector. The way blizzard has encounters designed needs to be rethought in regards to mana along with the regeneration problems addressed. (changing the 5 second rule drastically and shortening encounters to a point where it actually mattered would help, too)
Because shadow priests arn't being brought to do that already? There will always be a demand for mana. You need to limit the mana-flow somehow, and rather than an unrealistic "Lets change the entire mana regeneration model", which is only going to become likely in a further expansion, why not reduce the effectiveness of a class to make mana less trivial now.
As it stands, mana pots used on cooldown and shadowpriests are the two largest sources of 'raid-wide' instant mana, reducing that shadowpriest mana by well over half without breaking the class mechanics seems in fact to be one of the better suggestions for a decent, workable fix. I'd anticipate that the limits of shadowpriests, mainly their loss of efficiency when it comes to switching targets, and extreme reliance on incoming sources of mana not innate to the class; would dissuade raid-leaders from overly stacking more of them than already occurs. Any more drastic suggestions, while interesting to muse and arguably needed, would as you say require a significant redesign of mana regeneration, which, in my opinion, would put such a change out of the scope of this expansion.
Last edited by Rockstar : 07/03/07 at 2:12 PM.
Reason: syntax
While you are correct that Misery and Shadow Weaving are buffs any RL would feel hard to part with, you need a single SP to apply them.
I'd like to point out that there are nine classes and three talent trees each, for a total of 27. Therefore, you shouldn't actually expect to see more than one of *any* build in a 25-man raid unless it is an actively preferred raid build. And you shouldn't expect to see more than 2 of any build unless it is sufficiently overpowered as to force raid stacking.
So to every single person in the world that has ever said "but that only gives you a reason to bring a single <whateverbuild>", yes. What's the problem with that?
06/28/07, 3:11 PM
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