SSC/TK: How many Hunters?

Reipin Pillage · 06/18/07, 10:24 AM

I'm curious to see the number of hunters other guilds bring to raids, and why.

My guild does SSC/TK by rotating hunters into one slot, with the exception of Vashj where we take two. We have no done A'lar or Kael yet.

The two hunters who raid are BM and Survival, while a third is perma wait listed because he took a break, even though he is very good.

Is three hunters too many for a raid? Say, if two were BM and one was survival. Could you not make a group of a feral druid, shaman for GoA/SoE, two BM hunters for 2x FI, and the survival hunter? Or would this be a suboptimal use for the druid and shaman?

Quigon · 06/18/07, 10:26 AM

You could bring 7 hunters, or you could bring 0. Both work, just like with holy priests and rogues.

If the question is their dps, or stackability - it is highly situational.

In many instances you'll find yourself bringing 1 hunter, as bringing a 2nd over a rogue is rarely superior. Then again, bringing a rogue is often not the best choice either...

I'm sure the hunters disagree with their own raid utility - but they do probably play the worst class in TBC raiding (seriously think the classes over a bit, its either hunter or rogue).

3 hunters is probably too many in a raid - but we've done it countless times and still won.

• Shifft · 06/18/07, 10:27 AM

We're up to Kael right now with Vashj down (should have Kael down soon too), and we bring 2-3 hunters every raid. Usually one BM and two MM, just because those are the specs they prefer. The MM hunters range from 3-8 on damage meters depending on the fight, while the BM hunter can come first on some fights but (obviously) doesn't do very well on pet-unfriendly fights.

We don't usually make a specific hunter group even when we have 3, usually the BM one in our best caster DPS group (with shadowpriest), and the two MM ones in the healer group and other caster/healer group (both with shadowpriests as well).

♦ Praetorian · 06/18/07, 10:30 AM

We did an SSC over the weekend where we had 1 mage and a ton of hunters, and it worked fine. Vashj with 4 hunters was easier than ever before.

Hunters do great DPS on fights like Karathress where their pets can work freely for the whole time, and having extra misdirections can allow you to completely lock down Leotheras, Hydross transitions, misdirect+trap every murloc wave onto its intended tank, etc.

So yeah, like Quigon said, you can have zero, or you can have seven, and succeed just fine. as with most classes, 2-3 hunters are what I aim for on most fights. The only class I'd say we ever "stack" is priests, but that's because shadow priests and holy priests are like two completely different classes and I see bringing 3 of one and 2 of the other as ordinary.

Whitemane · 06/18/07, 10:46 AM

If we put an extra hunter in, he'll be taking a warlock, mage, shadow priest or oomkin spot. Never a melee spot. Generally we only use one hunter because ours are generally pretty bad at being hunters, however one of our hunters recently specced beast mastery and is doing some excellent dps.

Forar · 06/18/07, 11:00 AM

We're only on our second boss in SSC so far.

We typically run 2-3 hunters. While their utility is appreciated (traps for Tidewalker, misdirects everywhere, etc), they are often simply seem to have a lower damage potential than many of our rogues, warlocks and mages, who are all becomming quite competitive as the upgrades are spread out.

Strangely, we too had a hunter spec BM recently, and his performance has nigh-doubled. He also got a new computer, so that might be helping, but it's been a dramatic increase from a previously somewhat lacklustre raider. He's a fine guy, but I used to outdamage him when he was in full T2 (and armed comparitively) when I was on an alt hunter in BWL in near full T1 with a Rhok and some blues filling out any gaps in my gear.

Time will tell at the end, but we're currently looking to possible cut down to 2 hunter spots and up the mages to 3 spots. That's probably our preferred stance anyways, but for a while we had a lot of hunters vying to raid, and not as many consistant mages. That situation has reversed itself through a bit of attrition lately.

At the end of the day, you just have to work with what you have on hand, I suppose.

Sapa · 06/18/07, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Reipin Pillage

I'm curious to see the number of hunters other guilds bring to raids, and why.

My guild does SSC/TK by rotating hunters into one slot, with the exception of Vashj where we take two. We have no done A'lar or Kael yet.

The two hunters who raid are BM and Survival, while a third is perma wait listed because he took a break, even though he is very good.

Is three hunters too many for a raid? Say, if two were BM and one was survival. Could you not make a group of a feral druid, shaman for GoA/SoE, two BM hunters for 2x FI, and the survival hunter? Or would this be a suboptimal use for the druid and shaman?

2-3 hunters.
Me as SV + 1-2 BM.

We are allways in odd groups (healing, sp+2xbm+2xdestro lock,...) and we still compete with rogues that allways have enh.shaman+5/5 imp.BS warrior on dps.

There is never to many hunters i say

more MD = more raid dps.
We have some severely threat limited folks...

And dont forget on MMORPG rule x.
Todays worst may be tommorows best. You want to have each of classes covered in guild.
By having 0-1 hunter spots you might be undermining your progres in some future patch since you will only have 1 decently geared hunter. EQ Ranger spring to mind...

Quigon · 06/18/07, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Sapa

And dont forget on MMORPG rule x.
Todays worst may be tommorows best.

This rule doesn't apply to hunters. Or rangers for that matter. Took over 2 years to apply to warlocks too!

Lambach · 06/18/07, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Quigon

This rule doesn't apply to hunters. Or rangers for that matter. Took over 2 years to apply to warlocks too!

I don't know. If you seen recent D&T dmg meters, Ravel and dolemite have been kicking peoples ass lately. They are able to put out incredible chart topping dps as BM spec.

Sapa · 06/18/07, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Quigon

This rule doesn't apply to hunters. Or rangers for that matter. Took over 2 years to apply to warlocks too!

Instead of hunter:
Why take more than 1 rogues, 1 mage (ai) and 1 lock (aff/imp) on

Al'ar?
Well desto lock dps with SP support > hunter > mage > rogue.
But saddly it doesn't fare well for him grabbing aggro on embers, nor does he hit both at once. Neither he can fire instants when they spawn and bring them to tanks, then safely drop aggro.

Void Reaver?
BM hunter > destro lock = SV hunter > mage > rogue

Hydross?
Depends on tactic.
AoE: hunter > rogue
Single/Duo: You need 2x banish, rogues help with stuns, but dps hunter > all.
Hunter = safest dps, and MDed transitions = win.

Lurker?
Yet to see "normal" fight, but 1 destro lock beat me for 700damage total on first kill and we were way ahead 3rd who was BM hunter, who was quite ahead from 4th on dps that was SP.

Tidewalker?
Hunter > rogue both in dps and utility. I even beat some mages and locks in dps that are AoEing the murlocs.

Lord?
You would like to have 1 rogue for kicks, but lately shamans do the job with shocks.

Heh.
From my PoV atm well played hunters are top dps, with more utility than people give them credit for. Either that or whole my guild dps plainly sucks witch i doubt.

Quigon · 06/18/07, 11:55 AM

First of all, it was a joke, and second thing...

People and your damage meters... Damage meters do not exist in a vacuum. They depend on the fight, and the PEOPLE involved, and the gear involved. If a hunter is able to outdps a rogue on a single target fight I would venture to guess the rogue is doing something wrong.

As to Sapa - half those fights a warlock is vastly superior - and getting to those bosses you're going to save more time SHEEPING the trash mobs than you will gain by having 50-100dps more on the boss. 1 rez is a lot of lost dps in terms of time. As to rogues losing on dps meters on Void reaver - I would guess you're using a suboptimal strategy. Rogues should also destroy lurker as well.

Northerner · 06/18/07, 12:04 PM

We are starting to bring more hunters in now and are not at all regretting the results so far. They still fall in the "ranged damage" category for us though and tend to replace mage slots for the most part although of course it is sometimes a rogue slot instead.

As well, I'm not so sure anymore Quigon. A BM Hunter can provide as much total raid dps (including the group 3% from FI) as a Rogue for most fights and with less need on in-combat support for the most part. A Survival Hunter is still up in the air a bit but for melee-heavy raids they are also a perk not to be ignored. Regardless though, competent Hunters are definitely a raid asset now and I think that is generally a very good thing.

Quigon · 06/18/07, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Northerner

We are starting to bring more hunters in now and are not at all regretting the results so far. They still fall in the "ranged damage" category for us though and tend to replace mage slots for the most part although of course it is sometimes a rogue slot instead.

As well, I'm not so sure anymore Quigon. A BM Hunter can provide as much total raid dps (including the group 3% from FI) as a Rogue for most fights and with less need on in-combat support for the most part. A Survival Hunter is still up in the air a bit but for melee-heavy raids they are also a perk not to be ignored. Regardless though, competent Hunters are definitely a raid asset now and I think that is generally a very good thing.

Yes, they're definitely improved - hence why we bring 3 a night sometimes. But to me I'm not comparing hunter to mage, as much as hunter to warlock or rogue... which is mostly the spots they compete against. I choose mages based on number of sheeps required or as a fill in/situational role.

On many fights AE, and DoT rotting multiple targets is really valuable - hence why warlocks often win out.
But if you're telling me that two equally geared and competent players, sitting on lurker or void reaver - one is a BM hunter, one is a rogue - and the hunter wins, then I am totally wrong in my thinking, and take back what I said. I just haven't experienced that. I've seen good hunter DPS (finally! dramatic improvement from Naxx), but not tops unless something strange is happening.

Reipin Pillage · 06/18/07, 12:10 PM

Just to give examples of our raid makeup:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...s1&s=5817-6221

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...pi&s=5684-6219

What classes would you suggest dropping to make room?

Sapa · 06/18/07, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Quigon

First of all, it was a joke, and second thing...

People and your damage meters... Damage meters do not exist in a vacuum. They depend on the fight, and the PEOPLE involved, and the gear involved. If a hunter is able to outdps a rogue on a single target fight I would venture to guess the rogue is doing something wrong.

As to Sapa - half those fights a warlock is vastly superior - and getting to those bosses you're going to save more time SHEEPING the trash mobs than you will gain by having 50-100dps more on the boss. 1 rez is a lot of lost dps in terms of time. As to rogues losing on dps meters on Void reaver - I would guess you're using a suboptimal strategy. Rogues should also destroy lurker as well.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=am2phfzh5hsqk

I don't know what your hunters are doing, but we do 1k dps most of the time and usualy with little or no group dps support.
Allso tell me what your rogues are doing to break 1.1k dps in their perfect groups (with enh.shaman and warrior)

Im trapping those mobs as much as mages are sheeping them or priests MCing.

At Void, melee group (3x rogue, enh.shaman, warrior with imp.bs) are in and dpses 100%.. Chain Heal+JoL ftw?.

Note: im SV in this WWS, that means ~100-200 personal+pet dps less than BM atm (depends on fight, and scorpid abuse).