Maybe we just have an odd guild, but it seems that since TBC came out we had several people reroll Pallies, as well as quite a few switched from their alt Druids to be their mains, and we've become incredibly healer heavy.

I've had issues getting into raids since I'm not one of the "core" members of the guild, but don't really think that taking my Druid into SSC is a smart choice at this point. Kalecgos as a whole is a bit healer heavy, but only really has one guild making progression into clearing SSC and moving forward.

Are there many other guilds experiencing this, or is it new? We've run low on tanks with 3 Kara groups clearing in one day a week and have since moved to having several Druid tanks while still keeping 5-6 Resto druids on roster, some having to sit out of Kara groups because we have TOO many healers. Even priests are urged to go Shadow now and just be a mana battery for our groups.

/boggle

priests lack raid utility, there's not much use for more than one healing specced, but that's discussed in other threads and not for here.

I've definitely seen the same lack of tanks you speak of.

As for healers, I do notice having a few standing by to cover for those that leave in our 25mans, something we never noticed pre-BC. It also seems that a lot of people have healing alts that they're willing to pull in, moreso than pre-BC.

If getting in to raids because there are too many healers already, you seem to have 2 options:
obviously, you can always reroll
or better:
At least when I'm filling a raid, if it's between 2 comparably specced people, I'll lean toward the better one. Spend time reading forums, doing math, balancing gear, and just practicing, and make a name for yourself as one of the best of your class. Once you do this, you'll likely get spots over other resto druids rather often, or at least this has shown to be the case in my experience.

That's definitely true. I spend a lot of time figuring out what is the most efficent way to heal, use consumables when needed, etc, but I'm a bit limited on raid time due to my wife being preggers.

I'd say that I'm a little undergeared compared to some other members in our guild, which has made me think about rerolling and leading to this topic altogether.

Our guild is to the point when we have a Holy priest apply, we're just asking them to spec Shadow and come along, even if they have really damn good gear. The state of Kalecgos is just falling apart currently.

I've actually started a Mage, and figure by the time I hit 50 or so I'll have a good feel if I want to change that over and just keep the Druid aside in case we need another healer for a Kara group or something along those lines.

You brought up a good point though, practice, research, and pick up items that are even small upgrades when you can. Thanks!

Fortunately with picking a Cloth dps, you have the power of tailoring to get you up to speed with your guild. Make sure you get that gear together so you can come out of the gate t4+ level. :P

Well, you seem to be comparing apples and oranges a bit. When my old guild was still farming Kara, we had 2 consistent teams, and many people wanted to start a 3rd team to get more people in there. However, I was very adamant in my views that 3 kara teams sets up a very bad 25 man scenario. (Not to mention that after 5 months people are damn tired of that place, and you won't get your A team in there all the time). How I mean is, 6 kara teams sets up 3 raid leaders, unless its one officer per, and they work really well together, when you try to reform for 25 mans, this stratification of leadership will cause some issues. Another problem this presents is that you have 6 tanks. Now, some of these might be offtanks/feral/dpswarriors. But if they are running kara groups, they go from being needed all the time, and being the foundation of the group, to being rather secondary. You are gearing up three MTs, who will be used to getting to be the MT. There will have to be pretty massive rotations to get those guys all into 25 mans, and if they are good MTs, they will be pissed when they arent the MT of the 25 mans. I would forsee some of these tanks getting bored and either leaving or quitting.

Another thing you mentioned is 5-6 restore druids on the roster. That in and of itself is completely mind boggling to me. We have zero healing druids in the guild atm. They were all forced to change spec(myself included) because there just usually isnt a 25 man raid spot for them. If you'd like more information about this, on the nihilum forums, their druid class leader writes a great post about what is lacking for healing druids. Any restore druid spot in a 25 man, I'd much rather just have a paladin or shaman for. Healing priests are in the same boat.

If you enjoy a mage, my suggestion to you is to try the balance tree. I've been running it since we started raiding tbc. Its great for karazhan, so you'll really feel useful in your groups. You should be able to pull fairly massive dmg on the first half, and you are still really great healing spec for teh 2nd half. And switching to dps on trash helps out a lot. The spec is not as great and versatile for 25 mans, but with 1300 or so fully buffed spell dmg. I'm usually still able to hit top 5 if its a fight where I can straight nuke.

So I think you should test out your options, but I really don't see you being happy in the future staying in your current guild as a healer.

Wow, you brought up some great points there. I'm going to have to go take a look at that Nilhim post about Druids and really look into my viability down the road with this current character. I fell in love with playing a healer with this character, but sadly without raid viability down the line, I feel like I'm just leeching loot in anything past Kara. I haven't bothered to log in for a Gruul right in quite a while, and though I have a fairly strong Feral set, I don't like tanking in TBC with how hectic some of the instances can be.

I think that I can be pretty happy with a Mage, and even the guild has supported the changeover, as we're fairly light on them right now. Most have switched mains to either Pally or Druid, which leaves several raid spots open for DPS casters that aren't Warlocks (Another class we're incredibly heavy on)

The suggestion of the Balance tree could be fun as well. It's great fun for PvP as well as giving some raid viability after getting geared up, which seems (to me) to be the hardest part. Finding 5 man groups (even in guild) has been rough on the Kalecgos server. Everyone always wants CC in the instances, though that does leave 2 extra spots.

I do thank you for that Nilhim post to read. Hopefully I can take something from it and run with it.

Regarding 3 Kara groups, in our guild we have run with 3 "main" tanks for quite some time. We run Kara at different times, so people with alts can bring them through and get them geared up, so realistically we have a 25-30 man strong raid force that logs in regularly, with people geared for several roles. I'd say that it gives us a lot of flexability to bring certain characters to the raid and people really don't mind sitting out, or respeccing for a day as well. I'm really thankful for the family like atmosphere that we have, even though it's led to a little slower progression than a lot of guilds. Our warriors aren't hot headed, and two of the three main tanks have level 70 alts (Warlock and Spriest respectively) and both are geared in 5 man heroic and Kara gear.

I think that if we are going to continue to recruit, that there is going to be a point where we just can't take healers anymore, but I think that we will always welcome another Pally or Shaman. We currently run with 4 different Shaman that raid on a regular basis and 4 Pallys are available as well. I don't know how we've done it, but only have 2 Hunters and 3 Rogues in guild that play all the time. Maybe I should just be thanking everything in the world that we have a great guild composition.

The post about a thread on Nihilum forums piqued my interest so I checked it out. Don't bother, it's basically a no-substance whine. My favorite part was "Im gonna say it again, BLIZZ you have failed. Druid class is now offically broken and useless. thank you for WASTING my 170+ days played on my druid."

Anyway, as a Druid you don't necessarily need to reroll to change the role you play in raids. Ferals offer raid-quality DPS and tanking and Moonkins may or may not offer raid-quality DPS as well (few data points to go on).

Yeah, even if druids got a buff, 5-6 restore specced already is really really heavy. This might be an instance where a reroll is justified.

To the OP: I can't imagine you have too many warlocks. I have trouble thinking of any number of warlocks that I'd consider "too many". Maybe like 10 for a 25 man.

I'd agree with this post here. Before the current hunter flavor-of-the-month that is BM, I was strongly considering rerolling to a shaman I was getting to 70 and gearing, but I stuck it out leaning on the side that I've progressed my hunter quite a bit (from early MC raiding through some Naxx and through the teir4 raiding content) and didn't want to forgo that progress. Lo and behold 2.1 rolled around and I'm thoroughly enjoying myself quite a bit again.

Id try out feral and possibly balance. One of our druids is balance spec and carries both sets of gear, primarily healing 25 mans and dpsing some in 10-5 mans.

The nihilum post is a great read, i disagree. There is something wrong when the top guild in the world does not bring a restore druid to a single encounter. Not because he is undergeared or unskilled, but becuase they are not a class/spec that are worthy of a raid spot. Chain heal > HOTs.

Agreed, the good thing about a good balance build is you carry a ton of healing viability still. If we were really short on healers, and I needed to spec healing(happens like once amonth. Its more viable to spec dreamstate then it is to spec tree for healing.

It is a natural product of how we socialize that some people are going to come to the forefront of decision makers' minds before others. If your officers are fair, and your "core" comment is a reflection of clique and not of committment, then I highly recommend you just track attendance for all the druids, and occaisonally (and evenly, not whiningly) mention it to the officers before invites. I say occaisonally because hey, if there are 5 druids and you cats slot 3, that means every night 2 are sitting and about half the time, one of that two is going to be you.

Maybe I'm wildly off base, but if I were your officer, and if what I above supposed is true, then that would be why I would be making that mistake.

I think some time ago, people noticed, "Hey, there's like one druid on the roster, and they're first (and last) in a line of 1 as regards Class: Druid loot in zsDKP!" And a few rerolled. If your druids are second wave (like me~) druids, that would be it, really. I think we were this close to having an all druid Karazhan the other night as a byproduct.

As far as not being part of the main "clique" of the guild, if you can call it that, I ended up taking a bit of time off from the middle of Feb until the middle of April. During that time the guild had progressed quite a bit, but I was without an internet connection for a little while, as well as finding out that my wife was pregnant. It definitely took the focus of my life away from playing WoW, but eventually I made it back into playing, and even my wife rolled a BE Pally so she could experience part of what I found so great about raiding.

I've made it a point to talk quietly to the leadership and say "Well, I know I can only raid a couple nights a week currently, but here is what I'd like to do... let me know if it works out." and had pretty good success with that. I guess that second wave of Druids are characters that people have really fallen in love with and are playing more as their mains now.

I don't mind the quick leveling to 70, and I can 2 box the wife's pally if I have some time that she's not around. Just have her on /follow and keep BoW up and AE grind some.

I've noticed a huge amount of "Go feral" attitude here, and justifiably so. It's a great spec, and provides a ton of raid viability. I'm thinking that I'll continue that route, try to go Feral in the instances and build a bit of tanking gear. I already have all but one piece of the Heavy Clefthoof set, a +Def neck and ring, and think that I'm pretty close to capping out at 415 Def just with quest rewards and other little things. I just need to pick up things like the Earthwarden, or similar. It'll provide me with the ability to keep raiding and keep up on content while still progressing this character as well.

Thanks for the insight guys. I hate thinking that I'm a FotM type character, but I've been playing a Druid as my main since release and it's the only character that I've been able to stick with through those years.

I've read Marilyn's post and frankly I think he and you miss the point of the TBC resto druid. He tries to pin in druids as their former role in 25 mans as the raid healer. Resto druids are no longer "raid healers." No one will respect the HoT, especially if there's any kind of race on the healing meter. They should be on the MT. The constant heal over time is invaluable to providing a buffer against spike damage.

His post only deals with two things that we lack raid utility and that our heals are slow for raid healing.

1. Tree of Life buff when you get the plus healing to ~150 is pretty hot (no pun intended). There's a noticable difference in healing the groups I'm providing a buff for vs other grps in the raid. Additionally, we still bring to the table Innervate and BR.

2. Slow heals? He's ridiculous. Look at all the gear in BT/MH that have spell haste on the healing leather. I think it's a terrible stat for itemization, but apparently everyone's whines are making the itemization folks take notice. Moreover, lifebloom/rejuv/swiftmend/NS are all instant. He carefully avoids talking about swiftmend since he knows that'll destroy his argument. Since it's instant and only on a 15 second cooldown. And to the raid healing point, you can simply cross-apply my argument about not being raid healers any more. Saying druids are too slow for raid healing is like saying the Yankee's are too fat to win the NBA championship. You're placing druids into the wrong game.

If there is a chance of spike damage that kills then there will always be tons of heals incomming and the tank will almost always be att full health, especially with high avoidance. So almost all will be overhealing and to be honest, I'm just guessing here but for each of those very few times the tank is actually saved by the hot buffer provided he is killed because a healer was busy wasting 2-3 global cooldowns putting upp hots instead of landing those nice 1.5-2.5 sec heals.

Tree healing requires the tree to be in the MT group, sure it is a nice bonus. Unless the tree has to move around to avoid damage or the mob moves around, which is pretty common. And not to mention stacking spirit to get a high aura counters the style of playing that is proposed, you will never be outside the 5-second rule when you are rolling lifeblooms and rejuvs, you cannot cancel-cast those. So most of the spirit will not be utilized very well.

Of course no class is worthless and I'm sure a resto druid can be a part of a raid that beats any encounter in this game and not to mention eq and individual skill will always be a big part. But unlike holy priests that seems to have gotten a slight revival in BT if I interpret those that are there I don't see resto druids getting it. Unless of course next raid instance is full of mobs that do raidwide dots, then the hots might make a comeback.

If rejuv added 5% dodge too as a high up resto talent, then we can talk about being more needed again.

Morogrim is a fairly Tank heavy hitting/raid healing fight. Here's a link to our last kill http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=wnkg1xla62f21. I think this is a great example of where resto druid tank healing is efficient. Or a link to our last Vashj attempt http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=c2iqe1z5jfhou , which was me tank healing and doing a bit of melee healing.

You're throwing around overheal as if it's a dirty word. 1. HoTs don't cause overheal at least not in the traditional sense, as it doesn't tick if the target doesn't need it. 2. You're more likely to encounter overheal with HT/Regrowth spam, unless you're awesome at canceling heals. 3. HoT reapplication has a very low mana cost. So low, that a single tick of mana outside of 5 will be more than enough to recoop your application cost. Let alone a single tick inside of five gets me back an application of lifebloom.

Spirit/MP5 balancing is always important...for any class. The nice thing is our talent Intensity coupled with something like Bangle of Endless Blessings. Moreover, most decent resto druids will get their timing down on lifeblooms and rejuvs to get a tick of outside 5 mana. In all reality, I never have a problem with mana, aside from needing an occassional Mana pot chug for things like Regrowth. So, I think your accusation of mana problems is a little overstated.

(edit to clean up spelling)

Couldn't you just play as a tank?

If your guild is short tanks and high healers a feral tank seems ideal for them, that said if you are more casual than most and your guild doesn't support tanks gold spending habbits, it might not be the best idea.

Our guild might be different, but generally when someone rerolls in the hope of gaining a space we have normally filled it by the time they have leveled, got rep and gear. If that person is someone with a great track record they'll generally get a spot anyway, you might just find yourself in the same situation but with another class.

If you're thinking about changing mains, my advice is to get the class to 70 and then decide if you want to raid with them, not the other way around. Even if you grind the class non-stop, it will still take several weeks to hit 70, get keyed, and have reasonable gear to raid. And you'll have to learn a new play style. In that time, it's very possible for your guild's needs to drastically shift to something other than what you just leveled.

Since your objective seems to be maximizing your chance at a raid slot, ideally you want a class that has three potential raid roles, one per talent tree. So even if two trees have issues, you can spec into the one good talent tree and still be useful. Ironically, you're playing a druid, and I agree with the others that changing to a feral druid is a great solution to the too many healers and not enough tanks problem. Feral is also (currently) the tree that adds the most to a raid.

That said, if you want something different your best choice is shaman. They have three different trees all of which deserve a raid slot.

I'm slightly baffled by the "trees are useless" line of thinking. When I was raiding (computer issues recently have put a temporary break on that) I placed well on the healing meters, especially on fights with reliable damage across the raid, and provide good spike protection on more traditional single damage output fights.

In their present state, packing more than one resto druid would seem counter-productive, granted. Mana certainly isn't an issue, especially if you get your timings down properly and have an alchemist's stone (which, after making mine, I can't see how non-alchemists live without).

Although, a feral druid arguably brings more raid utility these days.

Actually I'd say it is quite the opposite, stacking more HoTs on the main tank makes it exponentially easier to heal him through bursts.

Why reroll and lose all keys, rep grinds etc. when you can just respec to feral? Granted not as good DPS as rogue but melee would love you for aura anyway plus combat ress, innv. etc. And lets not forget you can tank and dps in same raid with same spec just by simply switching gear and form...

IMO without the rep grinds necessary for TK attunement any more I don't see re-rolling to be a large timesink outside of the leveling process.