I'd say they are trying to make all the PvP people happy so they don't go to Warhammer.

I understand PvP is a zero sum system and PvE isn't. I'm talking purely from a rewards perspective. In PvP you can't lose you are always rewarded. In PvE you most certainly can lose out on being rewarded. In fact 100% of PvPers (who play their 10 games) are rewarded. You can't come close to saying the same thing about raiders. People raid all the time and fail, it is part of an MMO and what is widely accepted. Why should people fail at PvP and get the same rewards someone has to win at PvE -- and not just any fight, genuinely difficult fights that only the most distinguished guilds have been able to complete thus far.

Just abstract the systems. If two equal items exist in the game. One of them is guaranteed that you can obtain it in a short amount of time with hardly an ounce of effort. The other takes incredible amounts of time, effort, money, team work, and ultimately success. Both the same items, don't you think think something is wrong with one of the systems?

Either way I think the dead horse has been beaten enough. This is a subject people aren't likely to change their points of view on even with the facts staring them right in the face. I've always been skeptic of Blizzard trying to "Jam 2 games into 1" with a balanced PvE and PvP system when they always inherently unbalance each other to the point where in the long run they both end up mediocre, or one becomes the dominant one making the other non-existent.

I don't think anyone is saying that losers should not get "anything" out of arena, I think they're saying they shouldn't get Kael'thas drops. The risk/investment vs reward is out of whack for the PvE and PvP reward structure, and as this thread seems to indicate, there's little or nothing that can be done to fix it. PvE and PvP have such drastically different balancing requirements, barring the extremes of disallowing raid gear in arenas and vice versa, its difficult to balance rewards between the two.

On one hand you want PvE upgrades, but on the other those upgrades can't be so good that they're better than PvP gear. On one hand you want arena upgrades, on the other hand the upgrades can't be so good that they're better than the lower tier. Its all in the name of making sure people in the arena have the same gear. :\

7% of arena PvPers having access to S2 weapons sounds reasonable to me. If anything, that's still too many people. I seriously doubt 7% of raiders have access to Kael/Vashj weapon drops.

Also, how do people get to 1200 rating? You can buy a new charter every week, and it costs about the same as wipe night's worth of repairs. There is no reason for anyone, ever, to drop below about 1400 rating.

If the system needs people to queue up to lose, why not make some inconsequential loot for them to work for? I get what you're saying that you need some incentive to keep the system working, but the S2 weapons being available to an alt in quest greens is serious overkill. There's no reason Blizzard couldn't use something like Band of the Exorcist as the incentive for weak teams to queue up for arenas.

If the loot is inconsequential then why would they play?

It's been rehashed a lot, but the issue with denying rewards to the "losers" of PVP, shall we say, further stratifies the PVP ladder. If the goal of Blizzard is to create a skill-oriented PVP ladder (which they appear to be, considering the rewards and the rewards system in place), then all combatants must have access to these rewards.

They already added a degree of "character progression" to the PVP ladder through still allowing for gear differentiation (instead of say, giving each character who queues up for the arena the same set of gear), which had already begun causing problems at the end of Season 1 (when teams who had access to T5+ weapons, Stormhearlds being the most pertinent example, were able to leapfrog their opponents due to that gear difference).

How many guilds that are in TK and up still raid Kara on their mains? My guess is close to zero. We stopped doing official Kara runs and we only have 4 bosses down in SSC.

If Blizzard required you to do Kara every week to gain access to BT then you would have a point. But they do not, because people would be pissed that they have to do instances that provide them with no meaningful upgrades. The same way PvPers would be pissed if they got no meaningful upgrades from arenas.

I am not talking about raiding guilds. I am talking about the terrible WOW players who can't get past Aran. They go in and farm inconsequential loot, week after week. Why should terrible PVEers not be allowed to get 97dps weapons when terrible PVPers are allowed to do so?

Well if you want a change like that, the weapon equivalent gained from PVE should only give 85 DPS and ~400 Anti-Monster AP, which would make the weapons equal for their intended use.

Presuming you lose 10 games a week, your rating will continue to slide. Yes you can remake the team each week, but I would consider that an exploit that should be fixed. We can argue over the details, but not killing Aran is the PvE equivalent of a 1200 rating, give or take. At that rating, you get your weapon in 3-4 months. I asked this earlier, but let me repeat myself. Is it really so terrible that a bad player gets a single good item every 3 months? The guy will have 4 pieces when the next expansion rolls around. At which point you will have superior loot from BT anyway. Does that really warrant dismantling a system that otherwise works so well?

The arguably best caster PvP neck (Talisman of the Breaker) drops in an instance. I could go on whining for pages about how Blizzard is forcing me to run that instance to get the best loot. Or I could just just shrug knowing that it is one item slot and that it is not that much effort to get it. Why can't you do the same?

And by the way, the 97 DPS weapon is inconsequential. The guys wiping on Aran will not steal your server firsts with it. And since they suck at PvP by assumption, I doubt the weapon will make them a threat to you in arena. So what is it to you?

This board is pretty biased and raider-oriented, so I'm not really surprised at the replies, but honestly is easy to attain high quality loot really hurting anyone?

This is the same argument we see every time Blizzard nerfs an instance "Why do the bad players get loot for less work!"

Oh and as far as keeping raid loot seperate from PvP loot, I think most serious PvPers would LOVE for that to happen, as long as you couldn't zone in arena with raid loot and couldn't zone in raid instances with PvP loot. That would solve things, but it seems like nobody who raids wants that. Why?

How is it even remotely in blizzard's interest to do not allow you to use something everywhere (consumables aside)? The system doesn't reward failure so much as it recognizes time invested, and rewards success. Gurg mentioned, at it seems sensible, that they're trying to encourage people to experience all aspects of the game, at least partially, and that's good because it keeps you busy and interested. There's lots of reasonable arguements to be made about the relative strength of the arena gear (weapons and all), but to say it's bad in theory is something I just cannot understand.

PvP items have always been used for PvE and vice versa. If anything, this illustrates that Blizz further intends to blur the line between raiding and pvping.

I would assume that most raiders would love that too ... it seems like Blizz is trying to get raiders to PvP and PvPers to raid. Maybe instead of adjusting the Arena items to be on par with the leading guilds progression status, adjust the loot threshold allowed in Arenas a few rungs behind in progression.

Example:

Season 1 - Only 5-man/Heroic loot allowed in Arenas
Season 2 - T4 Equiv loot allowed in Arenas
Season 3 - T5 Equiv loot allowed in Arenas

This allows Blizz's intention of getting PvP/PvE player integration without ultimately screwing one over because of the other. Naturally disallow Arena loot in raid instances as to not give an upper hand to the other side of the fence as well - or again, offer a threshold where the previous season's gear is now allowed in raid instances.

Some PvPers don't want to have to PvE in order to be succesful, and vice versa. But ultimately those who can do both should have a better chance then those that do one or the other exclusively.

I don't know if any of that made sense, just rambling off the top of my head.

The MC groups were killing MC bosses. It works for PVE because whatever gear you need, you have access to. You don't need the DPS to kill Patchwerk while you're working on Rag, the gear you get in MC or before is just fine. Sure it would be nice to have Naxx loot, who wouldn't want more powerful loot than what they have, but you don't needit. With PVP, while there is seperation due to ratings, you still fight geared out teams at any tier and thus you need the same level of gear as they do to compete. There's no Kara->Gruul/Mag->SSC/Eye->BT/Hyjal to gear up, everyone in PVP starts out in BT true, but they are wearing 5man gear and they have to earn their gear in BT.

The raid development team, and then raiders. How, you ask? Suppose there will be many raiders a year from now?

My guild, I think, is about tied with arena gear, ignoring the whole side conversation that is probabilities and everything else. That is, sure enough, about the time people started getting T5 arena gear, we were picking up T5 loot (trash epics). There are four or five guilds on my server (counting us) as progressed or more then us (I can never remember if tied-with-us Alliance guild #2 is tied or ahead this week). There are 10-15 guilds that are behind us, and I think 8-13 of those wildly so (one-three are a boss behind). Supposing that current trends continue, it's reasonable to suppose that the overwhelming majority of them will not net a PVE T5 epic this season. (I do not make this assertation lightly, I have actually done the research on this before "Average-guild-was-not-in-Naxx-period"). Forgive me if any fellow realmers read, I mean this as a purely clinical analysis of the numbers.

If you were wiping to Aran, with Curator on farm for 2-4 months (for reasonably loose definitions of the word farm), would you continue raiding, or give it up? For the majority of cases, the answer is give it up - witness C'thun. If we justify development spending dollars based on player representation (and that's, I'm sure, an absurd notion), what's reducing the active raiding population not by a fourth, and not even to a fourth, but to a sixteenth? (Lower progressed guilds also tend to have larger rosters - losing one casual guild with 50 is a bigger loss then one hardcore guild of 35).

I am not concerned with "free PVP epix," spoiling my PVE party. In fact, I was thrilled to augment my tanking gear last season, and am now upgrading my healing gear without hurting optimal upgrades for the raid. I'm even going to advocate all our DPSers lose a few games a week - heck, I may even advance funding team charters out of guild funds - to solidify "the DPS slot" being solid. No, our progress is keeping up with arena, and I am happy with its secondary benefit to us. I think we're in the sweet spot, and around and above us, things are fine.

I am concerned with the majority of raiders, raid guilds, and raid leaders, who aren't going to be able to interest people in showing up, putting in effort, and wiping. I mean, why bother? I hear Prince Malchezaar is hard, and I had to sit last week, but my 5's team will get me that helm 4 weeks from now! And if you dare dock me DKP because I blew up the raid with flame wreath? That's it, I'm out of here - I don't need you for my stinkin' epix. (Separate is the discussion of people "suffering" things and people they allegedly don't enjoy).

Now, before I said "if trends continue." I think a reasonable way out of this conundrum (because forcing people to PVE who want to PVP isn't a fix, either, nor is strictly inferior PVP only items, eccet) is probably fairly likely - gradually nerf raid instances. In the extreme, replace (practically) any one of a current T5 raid boss damaging abilities damage range with a vastly inferior substitute - "Oh no, not Flame Wreath for 1000!" I don't think changes will be that significant, but I wouldn't be surprised if some pretty significant ability changes just sort of coincide with the season shifts (or, tick towards them.. hey, every 4 weeks, Easiest_Unnerfed_Boss gets a small tweak!... at about the same rate a mediocre PVPer would be getting a new piece...). Maybe I'm misinterpreting dev communications, but I've got the definite impression I've heard a few times, "Huh, we're confused more people aren't killing Maulgar/Gruul/<someone in SSC>..." and hence the tweaks/nerfs (Maulgar's big hit smoothed, Gruul... well, a book on that... the removal of attunement requirements). So I guess I lied when I said, "if trends continue."

Arena weapons are guaranteed items that are better than almost everything available in PvE for several groups- DPS caster weapons, feral DPS, and a tank's shield. In addition, arena items are good enough that even for classes where a sidegrade or upgrade is available, it's important for that class to go get the arena item in case the PvE loot never drops. For a guild that is currently in SSC/TE, the problem is that PvE weapons are so rare in the first place that PvP weapons become a requirement.

As a fresh poster but an avid lurker on these boards I couldn't resist adding my perspective on this issue.

I'm a fairly casual player (finished Kara, killed Gruul) with too much time on my hands at work doing the theorycraft. I'm no hardcore raider because of time issues and that is no problem for me.

So I raid maybe one or two nights a week and I do maybe one or two heroics. During weekends I hook up with my RL friends and we do arena's for an hour or so, basically loosing less than half of our games. Our specs are for raids mostly, so you could say we kinda suck.

We started doing arena's every week at the start of March I think. So I invested around 16 weeks into Arena. Next week I'll be able to buy the S2 caster-mace, which I've been anxious for since the beginning of March.

What boggles my mind is that a lot of people posting here would find this unfair to them. They raid more often and thus deserve this quality of gear, whereas I would not.

In what way would it be unfair to have my arena-hours be rewarded after 3 months of doing Arena's? I seriously don't think that me having this weapon will propel me, or my guild, beyond SSC in what we can kill. Still, I find it excellent that I can get this weapon as an alternative against Malchezaar's dagger, for which all the guild-casters are after. Next alternative will be available in SSC, which we'll reach in September I guess.

Now, what has 'balance' got to do with my story?

Why not just fix a bit the PVE loot system. Assign a number of loot slots for every boss, each slot providing an item out of 3 possible choices.

Have you ever watched sumo? That's a sport (well if you'd call it a sport I'll leave with you) where even the biggest losers get rewards. You can go 0-XX and still get a monetary reward at the end. Surely it's way less than the winner but still. Ok, so the winner can buy a Ferrari after 3 tournaments yet it will take the total loser (scrub is the word you guys love to use, I believe) can buy it after 20 tournaments. Yet they can both get it.

The same is PVP. The winning team gets to wear great epics much sooner than the losing teams. However at the end, they all have access to same epics. To many of you, the losing teams should not be allowed to buy Ferrari even after 20 tournaments but the best they should be offered to get is a new Ford at best.

However, I feel PVE is much more like golf, if I try to find another sport analogy (omg, I know I will fail miserably, just like Ming does every time but I can't help it). You have to beat a course (no live opponent is present, the encounter is pre-scripted and Big Wigs will tell you when to push what button - or your raidleader will, for that matter). If the par is 5 for hole 1, you need to get 5 hits to reach the goal. Some of your team will do it in 3, some in 6 but if the entire team sticks to the average at 5 or less, you have made it! Then one or more of your team gets a better ball, piece of iron and you move to hole 2. Sure, next time it will be easier for you to play on hole 1 since some of your guys have better gear to play. Does the same apply to PVE? I believe so.

Now comes the tricky part with the sport analogy :P Sumo wrestlers playing golf and golfers doing sumo (omigosh I told you it's gonna be tricky). Sure, the sumo guy didn't buy Ferrari but a couple of clubs and a nice ball and seems to be ready to play golf? Can he do it just the way the pro golfers can? I doubt it. And vice versa. Golfers with their shiny clubs and balls are somewhat lightweight for sumo.

Nonetheless, both sumo wrestlers and golfers can engage in the other sport to get something their own sport hasn't given them (epic for a slot). A complete scrub can get something out of the other sport after a long time. Yes, sumo wrestlers may learn to play golf. Yes, golfers can get beaten the shit out of them every tournament just to collect the pennies to buy a Ferrrari after months. So what?

You guys should cheer up a bit and, even though it's appropriate for this forum, discard the elitist jerk attitude for once.

Best comment ever. That is all. :>

As a member of a raiding guild, ive heard lots of "who cares what pvp'ers are getting, let them have it, it doesnt effect us", but i think thats plain wrong.

It does matter. If everyone ran around with Illidan quality loot from pvp, it would cheapen the pve gear that actually did drop from Illidan, and cheapen the experience of getting it. Now im not saying pvp'ers should never be able to get the same level of gear as pve'ers, but it should be in the same percentage, less than 5% of raiders have access to weapons from pve that 100% pvp'ers now have access to from arena. How is that right exactly? Sure it would take a shitty pvp'er months to get those weapons, but it would take even longer (possibly) to get it from pve, depending on your guild and drop chances.

Im fine with pvp rewards being on par with pve ones, but the same proportion of people should be able to get them from each side.