Zephro

As a soon-to-be 70 warlock (my third level 70 character), this is an issue that I've been worrying about for a while. The guild I'm in has a couple of other semi-regular warlocks, and I'm at the point where I need to decide what spec (and therefore what tailoring specialisation) I'm going to be in the endgame.

I was originally planning to spec Affliction, but having seen a couple of the guild's raids, I'm worried about the issue of debuff slots. With all the new abilities, the newfound viability of offspecs and changes to mechanics (Ignite being the most obvious) it's becoming quite easy to fill even the new 40-slot limit. That's making me wonder if it'd be better for me to spec Destruction, since it's so much less debuff-happy.

I remember way back in the day Blizzard were talking about implementing some kind of debuff priority system. But I've been searching around and the idea seems to have just petered out somewhere around patch 1.1. Do we know if such a system was ever implemented? If so, how well does it work? Is anyone else having problems with filling debuff slots? Is it an issue for most raiding guilds? If so, how do you handle it? Have Blizzard said they're going to be raising the limit again any time soon, or actually implementing a decent priority system?

 

DecimusGarona

If your guild already has a few other affliction warlocks and you are so worried about approaching the debuff limit that you don't want to go affliction, if you do spec destruction it would be in everyone's best interest that you are spamming shadowbolt for the improved shadowbolt debuff anyways. In conclusion, go for the frozen shadowweave regardless of whatever spec you plan on picking, because going Firelock in this situation would just be silly, doubly so if you have a shadow priest or two in the raid as well.

 

Stangg

Even with four affliction locks in the raid, none of my dots ever fell off.

I monitored this closely with an addon called Debuff Filter to ensure this was not happening as my dps was lower than it should have been (I later realised this was just due to raiding with 1000 ms constantly).

 

• Greybone

I haven't really raided in ages, but it shouldn't be that big of a problem.
However, if you have decent crit gear, going 0/21/40 adds a lot of synergy with improved shadow bolt, and can give insane raid dps as well.

It's very, very boring outside of raiding however, and in raids you basically do nothing but shadowbolt, but it's effective

The current debuff system seems to be very wonky, people are reporting a lot of important buffs falling off seemingly randomly now.

 

Hoonboof

We've got a couple of Affliction locks and a Destro lock in our guild and although I rag on at him because he never has an imp out he does ridiculous damage. He's top 5 most of the time. I don't think I've heard of any of our locks complaining about DoTs being knocked off though, and we've had like 4 warriors with deep wounds up and rend up deliberately trying to knock them off before.

Also 'sup Zephro 8)

:goon2:

 

Crepe

We've run into debuff limit problems when running warlock/shadow priest heavy (which we seem to do a lot lately). My answer has been to do exactly what was suggested earlier, which is to spec destruction for the extra ISB uptime. The damage is comparable to what I was tossing as affliction.

In short: if warlocks + shadow priests > 5, spec shadow destruction; otherwise, go affliction.

 

Zephro

'Sup 8)

Well, I know I've seen us hit the 40-debuff limit before. A combination of a couple of shadow priests (5 slots each plus Shadow Weaving) and a couple of affliction locks (5 slots each plus Shadow Embrace and Imp Shadowbolt) can take up half your debuffs before you've even taken into account the rest of the classes in the raid.

Add in Demo Shout, Sunder Armour, Thunderclap, Faerie Fire, Insect Swarm, Mangle, Rip, Scorpid Sting, Hunter's Mark, Deep Wounds, Fireball dots, Ignites, Fire Vulnerability, Winter's Chill, Stormstrike and you've got a full list. Adding a third warlock (ie, me) could potentially cause problems.

The two opinions about a debuff priority system appear to be "it doesn't exist" or "it does but it really sucks." I suppose it's the sort of thing that would benefit from testing, although it'd be a very difficult test to organise.

 

• Haphnet

To sum it up, if there are too many affliction warlocks and shadow priests in the same raid they just start butting heads with the debuff slots and it starts lowering everyones dps. But if one of the warlocks specs over to shadow destruction the overall raid dps will improve from the benefit of ISB uptime. And as someone said before, whether you go affliction or destruction it doesn't matter, you still want Frozen Shadoweave over Spellfire.

 

Zephro

Right, and thanks for the advice. But I also wanted to talk about debuff slots more generally. Have Blizzard given any indication that this is something they intend to change? Or are we going to be stuck with a 40-debuff limit for the forseeable future?

 

Vaera

The title itself and replies inside this thread left me a bit confused, since i didn't know what you were exactly reffering to, either debuffing limitiations from warlock's point of view and pointing out most beneficial spec /utility raid combination or discussing debuff slots in general from raid /encounter point of view.
I'd assume you wanted to grasp both, but i would really like to see this discussion developing towards general debuffing issues in 25 man raids, and ways of dealing with "less useful" debuffs.

Personally, i found it kind of comical some months ago when i had my Curse of Shadows being knocked off constantly during Gruul fight, while all other DoTs remained on the target untouched, comparing it to Patchwerk fight where even casting of Siphon Life was just a dream. That led me to believe that system that prioritizes debuff has been affected somehow in TBC, it seems that it works in some weird reversed mode. Another issue is, expansion added more synergy between classes/ speccs and yeah, they work together in the form of the debuff(s). I bet all warlocks wished that bleeding effects were never as DPS efficient as now.

I'd like to hear some opinions on what is and what is not worth casting in raids, lessening the threat of more useful debuffs being removed.

 

• Haphnet

Nothing I have seen suggests that the current debuff limit is going to be changed. I tend to agree with this assessment because it adds a level of strategy to managing the limit.

However, I would like to see a revamp of the debuff priorities that blizzard has set in place. It seems almost random and not based off debuff type nor time applied. Again I have not read anything that suggests blizzard is planning on changing this but I could have just missed it.

 

Dinadass

I haven't seen anything official about the debuff limit or prioritization system since pre-BC. I've had CoS/CoE knocked off, and CoDoom also. Most debuffs tend to either be refreshed often enough (sunder, imp scorch, etc) or not last longer than ~20ish seconds and don't tend to be pushed off. We've been running 4 warlocks + 2 shadow priests fairly often recently, and only 1 of the warlocks is destro. In that situation, I don't even use Curse of Doom because it almost always gets knocked off before it does damage.

One theory I've seen is that the debuff priority system was never updated to take into account the level 61-70 ranks of spells. I'm not sure if it's valid or not, but it would be great to see Blizzard look into it and either remove the debuff limit or get the priority system working again.

 

Backpain

Call me crazy, but that sounds like a lot of debuffs. Having just taken a look at my raid configuration, and itemized the debuffs - I don't see how a raid could support all of those debuffs without some falling off.

For example: http://jefte.net/decertostats/25man.html

Is a rudementary list based on classes we are typically bringing to raids. Even if we limit the druid to just mangle, we're coming up with 42. If we drop the retadin, thats exactly 40.

I don't see room for Insect Swarm, Rip, Deep Wounds, Winter's Chill... especially with Shadow Priests occupying so many slots.

 

DecimusGarona

If you want to free up a bunch of debuff slots, you could get your mages to spec deep arcane and use arcane blast and AM as their primary nukes, no more fireball DoTs, no more CoE, no more imp scorch, no more ignites pushing stuff off. Even if you ignore the fact that deep arcane has just as much damage potential as deep fire, if not more, the added DPS and utility from gaining 7 debuff slots and an extra curse is pretty significant.

 

doogless

I remember back from 8 debuff slot MC days that AM took up a debuff slot without actually showing a debuff. No clue if this has changed since then, though.

 

DecimusGarona

The implementation of the AM the spell has changed at least 3 times since then, I don't know if it still holds true and given the 40 debuff slot limit I imagine it would be difficult to test without getting at least 10 other players together.

 

Myul

Shadow priests need mf swp ve vt - 1 misery for all of your spriests, swd won't consume a debuff slot.

You forget to count in all the warlock curses, there should be up 2-3 at least (CoE and CoS allmost any time - CoR, CoW, CoD, CoA all maybe, to). I miss siphon life, and shadow embrace is a shared one. Immolate is missing as well.

Warrior: Demo Shout, and 1 dps warrior will need 1-2 (deep wounds, bloodfrenzy) slots, to. Oh, don't forget about taunt, if the boss isn't immun to it.

Druid: Ok, let's skip insect swarm. But what's about fearie fire? Rip, well ok..

Hunter: Expose Weakness anyone? And any hunter needs a skorpid in these days.

Paladin: Do they really need to judge Light and Crusader? Well we have no ret paladin, but our holy's can't waste gcd and time running around judging. A Ret paladin also should provide you vindication, to.

Mage could use detect magic, but it's not really needed.

Flameshock provides more dps with CoE, imp scorch then earthshock (and deadly poison of your rogues will consume it, to.)

Ending up with:
9 slots for your shadow priests
14 slots for your warlocks (maybe having one skilling heavy destruction instead?)
6 slots for your warriors
4 slots for your rogues
7 slots for your mages
2 slots for your druids (not ripping ~~)
2 slot for your shaman
5 slots for your hunter
1 slot for your paladin

50 slots needed :|

 

◊ Shaker

Another place to scavange some debuff slots would be from the rogues - as much as my rogue brethren will hate me for suggesting it, we can switch to IP on the offhand, lose a little DPS, but nothing compared to a SW:P falling off or a curse (or worse, a sunder stack ><)

 

Clandestine

I start seeing my debuffs getting knocked off if we have more than 5 shadow priests / warlocks in the raid.

Usually OK with 2 Spriest + 3 Affliction locks, but adding that third shadow priest starts to cause a lot of debuff problems.

Having to refresh CoE and CoS frequently causes a very significant DPS loss, not to mention CoDoom getting knocked off with 15 seconds left ;/

If you start running dot class heavy, you'll probably want to stop applying siphon life and immolate, or consider having a warlock respec destruction.

As already stated, you will want Frozen Shadoweave no matter what spec you decide upon.

 

Floria

Seems like people are forgetting JoW. This is the most important debuff for a raid, bar none. Perhaps a bit of hyperbole, but the amount of mana it returns to hunters and shadow priests is staggering. Other casters like it too.

 

• Karakas

We've had what appeared to be Demoralizing Shout being pushed off by warlock DoTs on Morogrim once... was not a happy sight.

In my experience the "critical mass" point seems to be at 2 shadow priests and 3 affliction locks. Adding one more of each and they'll be butting heads and have to lower their debuff slot usage.

 

TheBo

Sometimes, especially if we run 3 SPs and 3 Affl. Wls at the same time, some debuffs drop. But 4-5 Dotclasses are no problem at all.

 

Chimera

We often raid with 3 shadowpriests, 4 warlocks, and 4 fire mages (%$# the fireball DoT). In addition to all the debuff slots those take up, our rogues use deadly poison and rupture, and our druids put up bleeds, etc etc.

our warlocks are split between affliction and DS/S&F, and we have debuff problems on some fights, mainly the "tank and spank" fights where all the dps classes are burning the same target the whole time. tidewalker would be an example, vashj phase 1/3 would be another example.

in those situations I usually find myself (as an affliction lock) skipping immolate and siphon life, and just casting corruption, UA, and doom (or agony, if I'm afraid doom is going to get knocked off before it can tick). not casting siphon and immo doesn't hurt your dps that badly, and if all the locks cut those spells, it should help a lot with the debuff problem.

I can still top the damage meter without casting siphon and immolate, so it doesn't get me *too* upset. but every time I look at that row of 4 fireball DoTs a little bit of rage surfaces.

as others in this thread have already said, even if you go destro, frozen shadoweave is still the best tailored gear option, so you might as well make it.

 

Roywyn

The debuff system is in place and worked fine between WoW 2.0 and the release of BC. With 40 raiders and 40 debuff slots, we had all mages put Detect Magic on a mob (they use separate debuff slots) and told our warlocks to spam every DoT they had.

We had no way to get the Fireball DoT on the mob. So, the debuff priority system worked well at level 60.

What seems to be the case right now is that all the new level 61+ debuffs just didn't get priority numbers attached to them. So, new debuffs will just knock the old ones off.

What I heard from other warlocks is that the level 60 CoE/CS will not get knocked off, since they still have their old priority values (and CoS/CoE is mostly needed for the +% damage, next to no mobs have resistances).

 

Chance

I'd believe that, but it seems like some mobs have certain things slide off more than others. And I'm not talking stuff like Lurker who you would almost expect it with submerge. The last two times I've fought Morogrim I've had to reapply CoS almost as often as corruption.