High Crushing blow %

Theinternet · 06/22/07, 3:32 PM

I have noticed that our tanks are experiencing an extremely high crush % from bosses lately.

For example, one fight our tank didnt block 19 of the attacks received, 11 of those were crushing blows.

On other fight he didnt block 8 of the hits received, 6 of those were crushing blows.

Overall we are looking at an average of 65% crushing on non-blocked attacks. (yes I realize these 2 fights dont = 65%, but through all our bosses that is the average)
One of our lowest numbers we came up with was 28%.
I *thought* that is was only supposed to be 15%.

Anyone else have similar numbers?
Anyone other than me and my MT remember the devs saying 15% is the standard crush %?

Combat logs:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=bgfbbxiblhxc5

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=rm5mn451mnmae

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=lqafk1e6a1olg

Healing and damage reports are not accurate on that last fight, but the tank statistics are correct. You can click on 'Rehn' to find out how many hits he took and how many were blocked and crushed etc.

First link is Magtheridon, 2nd is tidewalker, 3rd is void reaver.

I think the 3rd is messed up because my combat log keeps reverting from 200 yards to 80 yards or something stupid like that. I dunno for sure, but tank stats are accurate.

For example the hunter you see at almost the bottom of the DPS meter was actually 3rd, I assume it is because him @ max range and me @ max range at opposite sides of the room makes it so I dont detect all his damage or something.

I dunno, I'm new to WWS but still, you can see the amount of crushing blows he takes is just stupid high when you consider the few attacks that get through w/o shield block.

I could just be reading the combat logs wrong or something, but I dont think I am. I thought crushing blows were supposed to be around 15%.

Asmik · 06/22/07, 3:36 PM

Its not 15% of hits landed, it's 15% of all attacks made.

example: on the magtheridon parse

he takes 95 total hits, 9 are unblocks, 4 are crushes, this is 2% of all hits, showing that with shield block he was able to push 13% of crushing off the table.

Malazaar · 06/22/07, 3:37 PM

Crushing Blows are 15% of all HITS. So if you say, dodge 50% of all attacks, 30% of the hits you receive will be crushing.

Once you reach 85% total avoidance, all incoming hits will be crushing (barring shield block).

Agren · 06/22/07, 3:41 PM

Originally Posted by Theinternet

Overall we are looking at an average of 65% crushing on non-blocked attacks. (yes I realize these 2 fights dont = 65%, but through all our bosses that is the average)
One of our lowest numbers we came up with was 28%.
I *thought* that is was only supposed to be 15%.

It's 15% of all potential attacks. A significant number of potential attacks will be missed, dodged, parried, or blocked, even with shield block down. Probably somewhere in the vicinity of 50%, with all potential debuffs on the boss, and can even go higher if the tank is using dodge trinkets in 'oh shit' moments.

Theinternet · 06/22/07, 3:43 PM

Thanks for the quick responses, folks. Appreciate the info.

Quigon · 06/22/07, 5:52 PM

This is why shield block rating doesn't actually reduce your chance to be crushed. Just as hit rating does not improve your chance to crit.

UNLESS, you're total avoidance surpasses 85%. Avoidance is therefore not spectacular until you hit rather absurd levels. By the time you reach that level as a warrior for instance, your guild has probably already downed illidan and your gear choice is just something to toy around with.

So that block rating, while it looks fantastic, may not be worth the X hp you're giving up for it. This is even more reason why sacrificing large amounts of stamina for parry and dodge gems is silly, unless you're nearing the cap, or, you're having healer mana issues (doubtful).

Zindel · 06/22/07, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by Quigon

This is why shield block rating doesn't actually reduce your chance to be crushed. Just as hit rating does not improve your chance to crit.

UNLESS, you're total avoidance surpasses 85%. Avoidance is therefore not spectacular until you hit rather absurd levels. By the time you reach that level as a warrior for instance, your guild has probably already downed illidan and your gear choice is just something to toy around with.

So that block rating, while it looks fantastic, may not be worth the X hp you're giving up for it. This is even more reason why sacrificing large amounts of stamina for parry and dodge gems is silly, unless you're nearing the cap, or, you're having healer mana issues (doubtful).

Couldn't have said it better. Avoidance instead of stamina is only needed if you healers start going oom. Although I do find myself dropping some of my stamina in favor for block value, plenty of fights where snap aggro, or maximizing threat generation in general, is crucial.

Makes me sad to see block rating in some T6 pieces, oh well.

For me I prefer Stamina -> Armor -> Block Value -> Avoidance. At least until I see a fight that needs some other stat to be pushed up the list (Kael is as far as I've seen so far).

• Falk · 06/22/07, 6:25 PM

Man, I remember the good old days of early WWS logs near TBC launch where we were thinking along the lines of "Holy shit, 80% crushing from Nightbane? 50% glance against Gruul? Are these mobs lv80!?"

Nezralix · 06/22/07, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by Zindel

Makes me sad to see block rating in some T6 pieces, oh well.

This is something of a problem for Blizzard. Presumably, people play high end content to get powerful gear, not necessarily specialized gear. Block rating is extremely powerful in any setting where things aren't hitting for over 1000, probably the best stat overall in that sort of setting. So do they make the class sets be more general purpose, or do they make them specialized for raiding? Whichever they do they certainly have the option of itemizing non-set pieces of the alternate approach.

Agren · 06/22/07, 6:42 PM

Originally Posted by Nezralix

Block rating is extremely powerful in any setting where things aren't hitting for over 1000, probably the best stat overall in that sort of setting.

I think you mean block value.

groktar · 06/22/07, 6:58 PM

Originally Posted by Quigon

This is why shield block rating doesn't actually reduce your chance to be crushed. Just as hit rating does not improve your chance to crit.

UNLESS, you're total avoidance surpasses 85%. Avoidance is therefore not spectacular until you hit rather absurd levels. By the time you reach that level as a warrior for instance, your guild has probably already downed illidan and your gear choice is just something to toy around with.

So that block rating, while it looks fantastic, may not be worth the X hp you're giving up for it. This is even more reason why sacrificing large amounts of stamina for parry and dodge gems is silly, unless you're nearing the cap, or, you're having healer mana issues (doubtful).

Case in point:

Quigon · 06/22/07, 6:59 PM

I don't think you should be choosing block value over avoidance/mitigation/stamina unless its an aggro fight. You need to have multiple tank sets to be a viable tank imo. There is almost zero use of block value in a single tank and spank fight with no aggro reduction, where you're not going to lose aggro - unless the bosses hits are frequent and low enough that the block value compensates for the increase in mitigation.

You should have an avoidance/efficiency set.
You should have a max stamina, max armor style set (your best tanking gear).
You should have a max shield block value set (your aggro set) - or something that has a neat aggro feature like 4 set tier 5.

90% of this comes from rings and trinkets, so this isn't a difficult thing to perform.

An example: Use autoblocker on Leotheras. Don't use it on Tidewalker.

groktar · 06/22/07, 7:13 PM

Unfortunately, most of tier 5 seems to be loaded with +block and +rating. The only really questionable piece of gear I was wearing in that screenshot was my Styleen's. Even then, if i switch out to something like Adamantine Figurine I would still be loaded with high black value and not much else.

♦ Theras · 06/22/07, 7:22 PM

Originally Posted by Zindel

Makes me sad to see block rating in some T6 pieces, oh well.

I think the main reasoning behind that is so that you're able to drop Shield Block entirely from your rotation once you're deep into the Black Temple. In current cream of the crop tanking gear you should be able to push just past 100% total avoidance without outside assistance if you obey the socket colors (or with a Grace of Air totem if you socket pure Stamina).

Is it a good reason? Probably not, but that's what my gut is telling me.

Nezralix · 06/22/07, 7:23 PM

Originally Posted by Agren

I think you mean block value.

Nope, I did mean block rating; it's extremely cheap avoidance provided that your block value is also sufficiently high.

Buiden · 06/22/07, 7:28 PM

Block value adds a really nice chunk of mitigation. I pesonally favor it slightly more than avoidance, although as Quigon mentioned it does depend on the fight to a certain degree. Ultimately the harder a mob's average hit the more block value it takes to create 1% mitigation.

For instance take a mob that hits for 10000, 1% dodge over 100 hits will provide you with 1% damage mitigation. On the same mob it would take 100 block value to do the same thing, and that is if you manage to block 100% of attacks. Now take a mob who hits for 5000 and now the ratio is 50 block to 1% avoidance and so on.

So it follows that the more armor you have, the softer mobs will hit you, and the more valuable block value becomes. My armor is to the point that block value is scaling very well (18k unbuffed) so I tend to favor it on most fights. For instance my average hit taken on morogrim (after block value) was 3528 last week (not using any stoneshield/ironshield), which is pretty low given how hard he hits.

But, I guess I am just a block value whore at heart. Nothing better than clicking 2 BV trinkets and seeing 1400 blocked roll off, it is pretty much a mini-shield wall and on any non boss mob might as well be hitting shield wall on a 2 min timer.

EDIT

Originally Posted by groktar

Unfortunately, most of tier 5 seems to be loaded with +block and +rating. The only really questionable piece of gear I was wearing in that screenshot was my Styleen's. Even then, if i switch out to something like Adamantine Figurine I would still be loaded with high black value and not much else.

Anyone else remember when the warrior ZG enchants had that typo? LMAO

TheOnly · 06/22/07, 9:25 PM

Originally Posted by Buiden

Block value adds a really nice chunk of mitigation. I pesonally favor it slightly more than avoidance, although as Quigon mentioned it does depend on the fight to a certain degree. Ultimately the harder a mob's average hit the more block value it takes to create 1% mitigation.

For instance take a mob that hits for 10000, 1% dodge over 100 hits will provide you with 1% damage mitigation. On the same mob it would take 100 block value to do the same thing, and that is if you manage to block 100% of attacks. Now take a mob who hits for 5000 and now the ratio is 50 block to 1% avoidance and so on.

Its a little bit worse than that. It would take 200 block value to provide 1% mitigation (assuming 50% avoidance) for 10K damage hits.

1% avoidance if you already have 50% avoidance in miss/dodge/parry is:

2% less damage taken (1 out of 50) if all hits are blocked.
and
1.73% less damage if nothing is blocked due to crushes adding 15% * 0.5 = 7.5% extra damage (1 out of 57.5).

Block is a very suprisingly big chunk of mitigation.

Of course, this leads down the avoidance vs. mitigation discussion which has been beaten to death.

Agren · 06/22/07, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Nezralix

Nope, I did mean block rating; it's extremely cheap avoidance provided that your block value is also sufficiently high.

Assuming you're not using shield block at all?

Quigon · 06/22/07, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by TheOnly

Its a little bit worse than that. It would take 200 block value to provide 1% mitigation (assuming 50% avoidance) for 10K damage hits.

1% avoidance if you already have 50% avoidance in miss/dodge/parry is:

2% less damage taken (1 out of 50) if all hits are blocked.
and
1.73% less damage if nothing is blocked due to crushes adding 15% * 0.5 = 7.5% extra damage (1 out of 57.5).

Block is a very suprisingly big chunk of mitigation.

Of course, this leads down the avoidance vs. mitigation discussion which has been beaten to death.

Your math here is not correct - I could stretch and say it is semantics, but it isn't quite. Block is not a coefficient, it is a constant. This is how we define mitigation - 1% armor at 50% armor reduction is 2% mitigation, but that doesn't make what you're doing here correct - in fact this definition of mitigation exactly interprets reduction in damage from where you stand in a relative sense, and hence means 1% is always 1% for BLOCK value.

1% of 10k is 100. Period. Whether every hit is 100 blocked out of 10k, or 50% of the hits are 100 blocked out of 10k, or 0.01% of the hits are blocked 100 out of 10k, it is 1% less damage taken to reduce that hit by 100.

If you take 100,000 damage and block 1,000 of that, you just mitigated 1%. Whether another 50 attacks missed in the meantime that would've also totaled 100,000 damage it doesn't matter, you still only mitigated an additional 1%. You can't talk about block like dodge, because the dodged attacks that you already dodged, are considered blocked anyway in this "everything is blocked" example, reducing damage as well by the same fixed 1%.

If you have 25 block and take 100 point hits and have 0% avoidance:
100+100+100+100+100+100 = 600
75+75+75+75+75+75 = 450

If you have 25 block and take 100 point hits, and have 50% avoidance:
100+0+100+0+100+0 = 300
75+0+75+0+75+0 = 225

450/600 = 225/300 = 75% or 25 reduction on a 100 point hit.

Read another way,
With 0 armor, 0% avoidance, 100 block, a mob that hits you 10 times for 100,000 damage, with 100 point blocks, will do 1,000 block, for 1% reduction.
0 armor, 50% avoidance, 100 block, a mob hits you 5 times (10 swings) for 50,000 damage, with 100 point blocks you do 500 block for 1% reduction.

You can't say "because of my 50% avoidance, I blocked 500 less and therefore mitigated less" - when you mitigated exactly the same percentage, and would've mitigated the same percentage with a higher scalar had you not avoided. The mitigation percentage is fixed.

This is how we define mitigation. If you block for 100 on a mob that hits for 100, you don't say you now blocked 50% mitigation because the other half are dodged away. You blocked 100% of the damage taken, mitigation was 100% - just as if your armor was 100%.

Block is not a very surprising chunk of mitigation - and your own point, even though it is mathematically incorrect, would go against your statement. 100 block rating is not something you pull out of your ass lightly - 1% dodge is.

The actual passive mitigation in a real world sense from block value is the quotient of your block value times your block rating divided by the mobs incoming damage per hit. It does not matter if your avoidance is 0% or <100% (at 100% its an undefined term as the mob does not hit), you will always mitigate that percentage.

Jebraltar · 06/23/07, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by Agren

Assuming you're not using shield block at all?

Not necessarily, particularly for Paladins. It's not uncommon for me to tank three or more mobs simultaneously outside of a raid dungeon (and even in Karazhan). Multiple mobs, particularly multiple dual-wielders, will burn through Holy Shield/Shield Block charges extremely quickly.

Karakas · 06/23/07, 8:41 AM

Originally Posted by Jebraltar

Not necessarily, particularly for Paladins. It's not uncommon for me to tank three or more mobs simultaneously outside of a raid dungeon (and even in Karazhan). Multiple mobs, particularly multiple dual-wielders, will burn through Holy Shield/Shield Block charges extremely quickly.

However, crushing blows do not enter into the picture unless you are fighting level 73+ mobs, of which in the current raid game I haven't encountered an instance where there are MULTIPLE 73+ mobs.

You could make an argument that high block rating is useful versus fast-hitting or dual wielding mobs (the quintessential example being Prince phase 2), but it still is usually not enough to push all crushing blows off the table without shield block (unless you are extremely heavily avoidance geared).

Jebraltar · 06/23/07, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Karakas

However, crushing blows do not enter into the picture unless you are fighting level 73+ mobs, of which in the current raid game I haven't encountered an instance where there are MULTIPLE 73+ mobs.

You could make an argument that high block rating is useful versus fast-hitting or dual wielding mobs (the quintessential example being Prince phase 2), but it still is usually not enough to push all crushing blows off the table without shield block (unless you are extremely heavily avoidance geared).

This has nothing to do with crushing blows, the statement I was supporting was:

Block rating is extremely powerful in any setting where things aren't hitting for over 1000, probably the best stat overall in that sort of setting.

It's undeniably true - if you don't believe me, go grind Demon Hunt Supplicants for a while with high block rating

The point was that block rating provides very good avoidance/mitigation for the item budget expenditure when mobs don't hit very hard, not that block rating is useful for avoiding crushing blows against multiple 73 mobs. The AOE packs on Karazhan, for instance - each block shaves off a good 80%+ of the hit. High block rating helps when we cheese the Retainer packs by AOE tanking everything except the retainer, as well. The more you get hit and the less you get hit for, the better block rating becomes.

On the flip side, the only reason for me to have block rating on my gear at all against most bosses is an attempt to hit 67.4% dodge/block/parry/miss so I'm uncrushable.

Dynalisia · 06/23/07, 10:37 AM

I thought this thread was about the fact that the OP observed that a very large amount of the hits that his tank could not block were crushing hits. Risking sounding inane after the posts already made in this thread and me having only skimmed them, I'd have to agree with that sentiment in that any hit from a boss in SSC I fail to block seems to have an extraordinary high chance to be a crushing one, on some fights it almost feels like a guarantee. All in all, it certainly feels like more than 15%.

Ofcourse I can't back this up with any empirical data and as such I won't try to make a point of it, but it seems this thread has gone into a direction that doesn't really offer a solution for what the OP brought up, so this is my bit to help with that.

Bender · 06/23/07, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Dynalisia

I thought this thread was about the fact that the OP observed that a very large amount of the hits that his tank could not block were crushing hits. Risking sounding inane after the posts already made in this thread and me having only skimmed them, I'd have to agree with that sentiment in that any hit from a boss in SSC I fail to block seems to have an extraordinary high chance to be a crushing one, on some fights it almost feels like a guarantee. All in all, it certainly feels like more than 15%.

Ofcourse I can't back this up with any empirical data and as such I won't try to make a point of it, but it seems this thread has gone into a direction that doesn't really offer a solution for what the OP brought up, so this is my bit to help with that.

Because of the 1 roll hit table, a lot of your unblocked hits taken will crush. I'll take my own gear as an example: my total parry, dodge, chance to be missed and block chance is 69,7% unbuffed. Half of my unblocked hits will crush, and that's unbuffed. Raidbuffed I suspect my total avoidance would be in the 75% region, if I take 100 hits without using shield block, I should take 25 hits of which 15 will crush. Better geared tanks with more avoidance will see an even higher crush rate on unblocked hits. If your total avoidance is above 85% crushing will be the only attack left in the hit table, and thus all your incoming hits will crush, assuming no shield block.

groktar · 06/23/07, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by Bender

If your total avoidance is above 85% crushing will be the only attack left in the hit table, and thus all your incoming hits will crush, assuming no shield block.

Exactly. If you scroll up the screenshot I posted you can see that I won't ever get a normal hit because my total avoidance is above 85%.

This is a little bit off topic, but one thing I've noticed is that the chance to dodge/block/parry in TankPoints doesn't change as you change the level of the mob. If I understand correctly you lose .2% dodge/block/parry per mob level, since it has an extra 5 skill per level. I'm often wrong though, so please correct me.