Yeah we've had all the keybinding and pet bar issues sorted for a while, I'm just talking about the learning experience basically.
Controlling and killing the constructs is very easy for a lot of people. Probably most people. But I don't think we're the only guild that has a couple members that just don't excel at that type of thing. In my experience it's usually healers because they spend a lot of time staring at health bars instead of dealing with mobs.
A player needs to have a certain amount of uh... keyboard dexterity(?) to kill their constructs in a somewhat timely manner. Some people just don't excel at things like casting spells and selecting new targets while they're re-positioning and adjusting their camera angle.
Lol. I agree with the part about the healers not being able to do this as effectively 100%. Just out of curiousity have your guildies screenshotted any legendary quotes from you coming out of learning this encounter (I refer of course to the "How Juggernaut Learned Naxx" collection from last fall.
Bring up Key Bindings. Scroll down to "Secondary Action Button" 1 through 9. 3 = lance, 4 = shackle, 5 = volley. No clue about the rest since I've never used them. 3, 4, and 5 default to Ctrl-3/4/5, but can be rebound to anything. Have everyone do that, and ignore the pet bar entirely. I just use F keys. Mash F4 when I'm about to die, then mash F3 while cycling through targets. It's fairly foolproof unless people botch it horribly or just don't understand the theory behind the process (and try to burn one down instead of keeping them all snared, or something).
As Praetorian said, basically all you NEED is 3-5, however after the first person gets Deathed, you will always have 2 spirits up. This allows for someone to help the next player with their constructs, and also to shield/debuff Teron.
The debuff is 1, and the shield is 7 I believe, don't ask me why there are gaps on the pet bar.
I have to go with clearing Hyjal somewhere around the time you're on Teron or Bloodboil. Maybe we got lucky or maybe we were just using good strats but we cleared Hyjal like lightning and the loot is absolutely fantastic for the time investment. We went in after getting to Shade of Akama and plowed until Archimonde was dead. One night to kill Anetheron and Kaz'rogal, half a night for Azgolar (we wasted a few hours trying to kite him which really is just not a good strategy, one shotted him when we just planted and burned), and a little under a night for Archimonde who has no trash to clear at all ever.
The thing about the fights is that they are strategically very simple and almost all based on execution, and for Kaz'rogal and Azgolar that execution is extremely simple. The funny thing is that Anetheron is probably the most complex strategy-wise. Even Archimonde is a simple fight, it's just a fight with lots of things that can kill you and if you die you probably wipe the raid, so it's mainly a retard check type of thing. You need a bit of strategy such that everyone knows how to handle the various situations that arise but it's really just not complicated at all.
It took us two hours to kill Gorefiend and in retrospect it may have been good to do him first but it doesn't matter really either way. I would recommend clearing Hyjal before Bloodboil because I'm pretty sure all of Hyjal is easier and offers a lot more loot as compensation.
COR is all a judgment call, and nothing else. It depends on your raid makeup, and the boss at hand (can he kill your tank?). The gain from it has to be quite large, to risk your tank taking more damage. If your tank has problems dying in the first place, COR is an awful idea. If your tank never risks dying at all, why not use COR, especially in Hyjal where NPC damage is a pretty large gain.
Teron is bad because it requires the entire raid to be prepared and execute. We went some 12-18? attempts where myself and a rogue never once got the shadow, and by that time we had got him down to 14%, but that doesn't mean you can't perform when you finally do it it, it's *very* simple. Some people are good at the game, while others are bad. Some people find strengths in their normal raid job, and cannot perform extra tasks such as kiting mobs or killing ghosts. Some people can do both flawlessly from the first attempt. We had a good number of people that killed all their ghosts before they reached halfway across the room the first time they ever got shadow, and we also had people that had got shadow 4-6 (or more) times and still couldn't kill them.
Hyjal is quite demoralizing at first glance. However, once trash is learned, and people get a much better idea on how to handle it, it feels like a brand new zone. Coming back to a boss you killed the prior week, or trash/boss you wiped to sometime prior makes you really question why you haven't killed said boss before. I read often (and our raid is the same way) of guilds struggling on trash, hardly beating it (or not) before the boss spawns, giving no time for buffs, gear swaps, NPC hp resets and the such. After a day of rest, the majority feels that said event becomes significantly easier, and everyone performs on a new level. I hardly expected to kill Azgalor the same night as Kaz, especially with all the horror stories, but his trash is pretty much as easy as Anetheron's with a good strat. Rage trash took us 1 wipe to figure out, then we were at Rage. Anetheron took 2 wipes. Kaz'rogal took some 5-6 and Azgalor took 1. I feel Kaz trash is much much harder than Azgalor, however the boss is a step up in difficulty.
It feels like a lot of people take what is said on this board as ultimately the end-all truth. There are many different opinions, there is no one way to do things. While the information here is priceless, and often great suggestions, the ones that are best suggested are the ones that tell people to try things out. Many people have said it before, Hyjal vs BT is very dependent on how your guild/raid plays, and nothing else. People really do hate trying things before asking how to/what to do nowadays. My guild is new to voice chat in TBC, so we are still bad about communication, and still many people lack mics. Hyjal really helps build a much better communicative relationship with the guild/raiding that other zones are not as good at doing. Everything isn't so cut and dry. There are underlying gains from things that are never spoken of. I really hate the ask first mentality.
COR is all a judgment call, and nothing else. It depends on your raid makeup, and the boss at hand (can he kill your tank?). The gain from it has to be quite large, to risk your tank taking more damage. If your tank has problems dying in the first place, COR is an awful idea. If your tank never risks dying at all, why not use COR, especially in Hyjal where NPC damage is a pretty large gain.
I realize its a judgement call. I like to come to these forums to get people's feedback when I feel like some of our raid leaders are overly cautious with these issues. Rogues own most of the Hyjal bosses that i have experienced so far, so I figured CoR would be a good call on the fights and just wanted to see where others stood on the issue (we have cleared Rage, Anetheron and gottent Kaz to 20% (morons blowing people up and 30 seconds of wasted time as an offtank hung Kaz up away from the raid for the loss)). I appreciate what you are saying, however.
COR is all a judgment call, and nothing else. It depends on your raid makeup, and the boss at hand (can he kill your tank?). The gain from it has to be quite large, to risk your tank taking more damage. If your tank has problems dying in the first place, COR is an awful idea. If your tank never risks dying at all, why not use COR, especially in Hyjal where NPC damage is a pretty large gain.
Teron is bad because it requires the entire raid to be prepared and execute. We went some 12-18? attempts where myself and a rogue never once got the shadow, and by that time we had got him down to 14%, but that doesn't mean you can't perform when you finally do it it, it's *very* simple. Some people are good at the game, while others are bad. Some people find strengths in their normal raid job, and cannot perform extra tasks such as kiting mobs or killing ghosts. Some people can do both flawlessly from the first attempt. We had a good number of people that killed all their ghosts before they reached halfway across the room the first time they ever got shadow, and we also had people that had got shadow 4-6 (or more) times and still couldn't kill them.
Hyjal is quite demoralizing at first glance. However, once trash is learned, and people get a much better idea on how to handle it, it feels like a brand new zone. Coming back to a boss you killed the prior week, or trash/boss you wiped to sometime prior makes you really question why you haven't killed said boss before. I read often (and our raid is the same way) of guilds struggling on trash, hardly beating it (or not) before the boss spawns, giving no time for buffs, gear swaps, NPC hp resets and the such. After a day of rest, the majority feels that said event becomes significantly easier, and everyone performs on a new level. I hardly expected to kill Azgalor the same night as Kaz, especially with all the horror stories, but his trash is pretty much as easy as Anetheron's with a good strat. Rage trash took us 1 wipe to figure out, then we were at Rage. Anetheron took 2 wipes. Kaz'rogal took some 5-6 and Azgalor took 1. I feel Kaz trash is much much harder than Azgalor, however the boss is a step up in difficulty.
It feels like a lot of people take what is said on this board as ultimately the end-all truth. There are many different opinions, there is no one way to do things. While the information here is priceless, and often great suggestions, the ones that are best suggested are the ones that tell people to try things out. Many people have said it before, Hyjal vs BT is very dependent on how your guild/raid plays, and nothing else. People really do hate trying things before asking how to/what to do nowadays. My guild is new to voice chat in TBC, so we are still bad about communication, and still many people lack mics. Hyjal really helps build a much better communicative relationship with the guild/raiding that other zones are not as good at doing. Everything isn't so cut and dry. There are underlying gains from things that are never spoken of. I really hate the ask first mentality.
Not sure if this had been posted, if you are behind on trash when the bosses yells 3 rogues can easily keep Kaz/Azgalor at the front with distract.
Not sure if this had been posted, if you are behind on trash when the bosses yells 3 rogues can easily keep Kaz/Azgalor at the front with distract.
Wow, thank you. I should have thought of this myself but that makes total sense. We have not had that problem in general but I find that the psychological comfort feeling that an extra 30 seconds of prep time gives really helps some raid members focus better and thus perform better.
I realize its a judgement call. I like to come to these forums to get people's feedback when I feel like some of our raid leaders are overly cautious with these issues. Rogues own most of the Hyjal bosses that i have experienced so far, so I figured CoR would be a good call on the fights and just wanted to see where others stood on the issue (we have cleared Rage, Anetheron and gottent Kaz to 20% (morons blowing people up and 30 seconds of wasted time as an offtank hung Kaz up away from the raid for the loss)). I appreciate what you are saying, however.
What I mean is: A guild with a lot of healers and melee dps will find a much larger benefit out of COR than a guild that has 5 or less melee dps and very few healers. Granted, any added dps is very nice, but the less of the two class groups you have, the harder it is to justify it. You will find some guilds use it, when others probably shouldn't.
I personally find it safe for my raid to use COR on everything except Azgalor, however, we don't use it on Azgalor, Archimonde, Gurtogg or Teron.
I'd like to share something we discovered - and it might prove very useful to a lot of you guilds.
The trash before akama can be done with 5 people. You can farm epics and such all day, easily. Get rep, get epic gems, get hearts, get some epics at a fairly alarming rate. Apparently the trash before Teron can be done with 10?
This is not a learning list, but for farming, i'd go:
Najentus, Supremus, Hyjal, rest of BT. For farming - that way you can send the crazies in your guild who play all day into BT to farm hearts up. At this point we basically have 3 SR epics per player from the sheer volume of hearts we've looted, and a ton of nice epics - gems will always be a problem though (just do the math).
As for difficulty and progression - if you're a relatively solid guild I would recommend doing BT through Bloodboil first, and then Hyjal. While Hyjal bosses are mostly trivial, the trash will slow many guilds down more than you might imagine; bloodboil will not take you longer than Hydross or Lurker likely did.
Bloodboil was actually fairly easy for us as he's a pretty simple brute-force kind of encounter; we healed through some pretty sub-optimal FR choices and managed to get him down after just over 2 hours of attempts with 23 people (got him down as soon as 2 more healers logged in). I'd recommend taking Bloodboil on before Archimonde if your guild is the type that always has someone who messes up. Archimonde is extremely unforgiving to mistakes, while Bloodboil isn't... as long as someone doesn't end up taking Bloodboil twice. :P
On an unrelated note, anyone got word on how Doomfire works now?
I'd like to share something we discovered - and it might prove very useful to a lot of you guilds.
The trash before akama can be done with 5 people. You can farm epics and such all day, easily. Get rep, get epic gems, get hearts, get some epics at a fairly alarming rate. Apparently the trash before Teron can be done with 10?
This is not a learning list, but for farming, i'd go:
Najentus, Supremus, Hyjal, rest of BT. For farming - that way you can send the crazies in your guild who play all day into BT to farm hearts up. At this point we basically have 3 SR epics per player from the sheer volume of hearts we've looted, and a ton of nice epics - gems will always be a problem though (just do the math).
As for difficulty and progression - if you're a relatively solid guild I would recommend doing BT through Bloodboil first, and then Hyjal. While Hyjal bosses are mostly trivial, the trash will slow many guilds down more than you might imagine; bloodboil will not take you longer than Hydross or Lurker likely did.
You mean the demon packs? Seems like those would be pretty difficult with five. Or are you talking about the trash in Akama's room itself? Is that the only trash actually tied to Akama?
I'd like to share something we discovered - and it might prove very useful to a lot of you guilds.
The trash before akama can be done with 5 people. You can farm epics and such all day, easily. Get rep, get epic gems, get hearts, get some epics at a fairly alarming rate. Apparently the trash before Teron can be done with 10?.
I guess you did not kill Reliquary yet, did you? The packs leading to mum were made with heart farming in mind. Nothing in there beats aoeing down those non-elites. Can easily be done with 15-20 people as well. I'd focus on killing Reliquary and then spend a few hours farming those packs for hearts (and epics). If you got a few guys willing to solo farm and help out, sure, why not. But overall time per player is much, much better spend on those pre-mum packs. We just extended our raids past midnight, always was 15+ who could stay another hour and farm the stuff a bit longer. Didn't take long until we had enough to craft four pieces for everyone. And you really, really want SR maxxed on at least all non-tanks.
And I suppose for the five men farming you mean the trash around the Ashtongue NPCs, those packs of 2 rogues or whatever. I don't think any of the big pulls can be 5 manned really. And after Supremus is down, you can teleport to the NPC. Dunno if that is even linked to Supremus, but it should definitely work after killing him.
I guess you did not kill Reliquary yet, did you? The packs leading to mum were made with heart farming in mind. Nothing in there beats aoeing down those non-elites. Can easily be done with 15-20 people as well. I'd focus on killing Reliquary and then spend a few hours farming those packs for hearts (and epics). If you got a few guys willing to solo farm and help out, sure, why not. But overall time per player is much, much better spend on those pre-mum packs. We just extended our raids past midnight, always was 15+ who could stay another hour and farm the stuff a bit longer. Didn't take long until we had enough to craft four pieces for everyone. And you really, really want SR maxxed on at least all non-tanks.
And I suppose for the five men farming you mean the trash around the Ashtongue NPCs, those packs of 2 rogues or whatever. I don't think any of the big pulls can be 5 manned really. And after Supremus is down, you can teleport to the NPC. Dunno if that is even linked to Supremus, but it should definitely work after killing him.
You can 8 man all the way to Teron, including Akama packs and Nightlords.
Even the giant Orcs can be 8-10 manned, though its hard to beat their enrage.
Hello, I have a quick question to experienced players.
My raid has should head to tier 6 instances in a few weeks.
We are 2 prot warriors, 2 feral druids and one dps warrior.
That's enough possible tanks for now even when 1 of us can't play.
We are debating on recruiting another warrior and I'm wondering if 4 tanks will be enough for BT / Hyjal encounters ?
You guys are experts, but I would think having 4 tanks would be better for learning Hyjal trash. Sure they are unneeded for the boss encounters, but that trash seems like it would be hairy with fewer than 4.
He means bosses -- hell, even a lot of SSC/TK and BT trash pulls would suck if you only had 3 people total who could tank.
That makes sense. I guess I just view Hyjal trash as an integral part of the boss encounters themselves since you can't swap raid makeup like you can before pulling a boss in SSC/TK/BT after the trash is cleared.
That makes sense. I guess I just view Hyjal trash as an integral part of the boss encounters themselves since you can't swap raid makeup like you can before pulling a boss in SSC/TK/BT after the trash is cleared.
You can switch gear before all bosses/trash in BT and hyjal though (and hyjal needs 1 tank for all except Azgalor and Anetheron which need an OT too), except RoS/EoS but that trash only need 1 tank really anyway. This means you can easily have DPS warriors/ferals/whatever swapping gear in between to tank for trash.
You can switch gear before all bosses/trash in BT and hyjal though (and hyjal needs 1 tank for all except Azgalor and Anetheron which need an OT too), except RoS/EoS but that trash only need 1 tank really anyway. This means you can easily have DPS warriors/ferals/whatever swapping gear in between to tank for trash.
Yeah I mean three is the max you need for any boss fight, four is nice for hyjal trash, most of black temple trash can be polymorphed, so again three tanks or so for that zone max.
That makes sense. I guess I just view Hyjal trash as an integral part of the boss encounters themselves since you can't swap raid makeup like you can before pulling a boss in SSC/TK/BT after the trash is cleared.
You can.
Have your standby player wait at the entrance ready to zone.
Tell your to-switch player to either HS, enter a portal, log out, w/e to leave the instance.
When its 24 people left inside, standby player zones in.
It can be easily done on 8th wave.. or on break before 7th and 8th..
We did it today at Kaz'rogal when on person woke up that he needs loots from this boss
Also while Hyjal trash is perfectly doable with 3 tanks, you might want to have 4, it makes things much easier, and allows you to keep NPCs up. We did Azgalor trash with 1prot+2feral, but its much easier with 2prot+2feral.
We never used more then 2 prot warriors in raid, but well, one reason is that we have only 2 of them in guild, and other that it makes 1 player in raid useless on boss encounter. There can be use for 2nd prot on most, but 3 - not really.
it makes things much easier, and allows you to keep NPCs up.
On our most recent Winterchill, Anetheron, and Kaz'Rogal kills every NPC was up to engage on the boss each time. On Anetheron and Kaz'Rogal they did 1.7 and 1.3 Million respectively, easily more than making up for any DPS kicked for a tank too ensure their survivability.
On our most recent Winterchill, Anetheron, and Kaz'Rogal kills every NPC was up to engage on the boss each time. On Anetheron and Kaz'Rogal they did 1.7 and 1.3 Million respectively, easily more than making up for any DPS kicked for a tank too ensure their survivability.
Wow I didn't know it was that much, but for anatheron we brought an extra tank, and for Kaz we brought an extra healer more than we normally bring.
For 4 tanks, 7 healers on each boss... and they went down faster than I've ever seen... with really no deaths other than the mages on one trash wave, but they brew their tea with paint chips and drink it from a sippy cup (I steal my material from edgewalker).
We used 3 tanks, 7 healers for our first few anatherons, and 4 tanks 6 healers for our first few kaz's... I think 4/7 is a much nicer balance; although having done it a few times could also be a huge difference.
We downed Azgalor for the first time last night on our second clear of the trash with Thrall at 2% - fun stuff.
I'm curious how people are dealing with the changed Doomfire on Archimonde - we initially positioned him against the mountain as per the guide on bosskillers, but that doesn't seem effective with the way Doomfire moves now. We tried moving him out into the open and had more success, but weren't able to put in enough time for a kill. Do people think the half-circle strategy with him against the mountain is still effective, or do you want more room to move with the nwe Doomfire movement?
07/10/07, 4:23 PM
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