◊ Quigon

I guess you didn't quite read what I wrote, but we only have about 1 in 30-40 FA's on the raid itself - my point was more addressed toward the problem of the fight in the first place with FA randomness. So that part is extremely rare - we set it up to prevent this circumstance from almost ever happening.
I also don't see how a MT is supposed to survive saber lash + FA + parry + vile/sinister. Its something like 30k damage instantly. Your evidence on the matter is fairly anecdotal, and I'm basically saying with 250 SR on the MT, you're going to die to these combinations (we never let AH drop either). As for Archimonde healing as well - 5 parries in a row (no shit, 5 parries), and the tank can simply die. I don't see how it is possible to avoid this. Yeah we won the lottery to get 5 in a row with 10 weapon skill, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened, and I took 28k damage in 1.5 seconds, with demo, tc, AH, ironshield all up.

I know some of you are able to somewhat repeat Shahraz - with 3-10 attempts or so... but I've also spoken with 2 guilds that have Illidan on farm, and have killed Shahraz 3 or 4? times. The first guild one shot her 2 weeks ago, and spent 1.5 hours on her this week. The other guild simply spent an entire night and never rekilled her, came back the next day, 3 shot her, and proceeded to 1 shot illidan and illdari (as usual). For our efforts, we could easily kill her tomorrow, or we could not kill her for a week. I honestly see us improving a little on FA's, but most of our deaths tend to come from FA + sinister, or FA on the melee inside the couch, or casting mana drain nonstop for over a minute. I still can't get over the fact that you're forced to circumvent so many of these bugs by just ridiculous positioning - and that alone is going to ruin a raid night.

 

• Snowy

Well Quigon, his evidence isn't anecdotal at all, I think it's safe to say that we've experienced a lot more Shahraz than you have -- I'm not saying this to be an ass, it's just the cold hard facts that our tank doesn't gib on this fight unless we've lost several healers first. I'm not sure what the difference is, honestly 5 parries in a row sounds like you are Wi flagged or something.

It certainly isn't a gear issue since you're basically the best geared tank out there, it certainly isn't a skill issue, and from your stories it's not an issue of mobs not being properly debuffed, so what could be the major difference then? I'm saying this quite seriously, the difference between your experiences on both fights vs ours is quite drastic with respect to MT survivability.

Benefactors' Bar, where you get free English lessons:

 

Stormheart

Quigon, I think you hold the world record for getting parried or something. I'm not clear here how you are getting killed so many times to getting parried. I have seen mobs parry multiple attacks off me simultaneously and never experienced a problem with them coming back at me for a pile of damage. I would assume you have more than my 22k buffed hp, but I fail to see how you are dying(exception Shahraz) on these fights as a result of parrys as opposed to something else causing it.

Would you care to display some log evidence of what you are describing?

Basically, in my experience, the only fight that there is a legitimate chance of me dying on is Azgalor, partly because we do it with 6 healers. The only other time I might get into trouble is on Teron if multiple healers go down to shadows in a row. Pretty much, if there are 7+ healers alive on a fight, I just don't see how it is even possible for an MT to die barring the most extreme luck factors, or a complete failure of the healers to do their job right.

 

◊ Quigon

I'm not claiming to die on every attempt. I'm only saying it is possible. I think people misread that.

I died twice to instagib parries ever on archimonde - my problem is with the mechanic here, which is why I bring it up.

Shahraz is another story. The first hour I died repeatably - mostly from solo saber lashes from either KB or targeting reticule. We went to deviates, and wedged... and now my only deaths are from SR+melee combos. I added more SR, and this went down - I didn't die for basically the final 2 hours, except twice where I had a double parry with sinister, before or after an FA. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one in this forum who has experienced insta-gibs on the tank though - even from shahraz killing guilds, shrug.

My point about anecdotal was in no way intending to diminish your experience. But if it is a 1 in 20 chance of being instagibbed on the MT, it is more than possible that one guild will not experience it in 2-3 kills. The quintuple parry still remains my greatest moment of "WTF?" It was a windfury double parry-1HS, shield slam parry, shield bash parry, HS parry. On the swing timer, starting from full health - it looked like archimonde windfuried me 3 times. The vast majority of the time though when a tank dies it is due to something completely controllable. Demo, TC, lock dots, SB, AH, windfury up at the wrong times... etc.

On Shahraz for instance, we went to having neither OT attack except when is necessary for rage. We went from windfury to GoA, and the damage reduction seen on the MT is significant. Long term though this is only for learning attempts - and we'll probably add CoR and OT dps back in. Shahraz and Archimonde healing are honestly fairly trivial 99% of the time. Shahraz tends to get you with her SR abilities - even though overall they only constitute a small portion of her MT damage. Archimonde you're more prone to dying during a fear, but this is of course controllable.

Personally this is how I feel the parry mechanic should work: parries by the MT should not lower the swing timer of the boss. Parries by players other than the MT should.

 

cladnin

Not sure why you would "need" windfury on this fight, there's a ton of rage coming in, and it's obviously another possibility to get owned. Our MT died once during our first kill to Mother to unexplainable damage, and I eventually had our offtanks sit there and white attack, because they kept fucking getting ported despite sitting down with their back turned to the mob. The one MT death *had* a parry in it, but I wouldn't say that's exactly why he died (it sure didn't help though).

 

Flamingcloud

Can someone explain this parry gg mechanic to a non-warrior. Did a search of the forums for an explanation but didn't see anything.

 

◊ Kasi

When a mob parries an attack their next attack comes faster. This is why you should always have pets and melee attacking the mob from behind, so they can't parry and spike their damage. I believe the speed increase on parry attacks is 40%.

 

Flamingcloud

This is for one swing? How does this mechanic make any sense? =P

 

◊ Kasi

I think its wow's implementation of some fencing/swordfighting ideas. When you parry someone's attack you're in position to launch a counterattack quickerl. So thats why they do it. Iirc it also works like this for players too. If you parry an attack in pvp, your next attack comes faster. I guess it is also to encourage people to hit from behind and not in front.

And yes its for one swing as far as I know. You attack a mob and it parries. Then he attacks you faster. Then his swing speed goes back to normal. Say your next hit also gets parried. Then he'll hit you faster again.

 

Dots

That is how it works for players. Mobs pretty much get an instant attack instead. On a double parry, you are likely to see 3 attacks within 1 second. If it was only 40% less attack speed, it wouldn't be as problematic as it is.

 

james

Kind of disheartened to learn that most guilds one-shot Azgalor after wiping on him 3 times last night (always the MT dying, think to cleaves that came after a silence). Our healers that aren't bad - but healing got v. poor when they got a rain of fire over themselves. Not used Ironshield Potions in quite some time but we'll be going back with a nice big stack tonight.

The spell description of the rain of fire is a little unclear and is different to what I observed - Thottbot World of Warcraft: Rain of Fire - at first I thought that the graphics were off (like @ Faerlina) since people were still taking dmg outside the Rain of Fire. I'm not sure that I understand how the Unquenchable Flames debuff works.

We were using 2 druids, 1 Holy priest for HoTs with a paladin @ support, with another paladin healing @ the Doomguard tank and a shaman/paladin healing @ FFA. Don't think any of our paladins have imp Conc Aura. Don't know if that even affects the silence.

Thinking of changing it so that the druids are @ NW and NE, with the paladin @ North - completely alone @ that side. Then spread the remaining healers (and raid) @ W, SW, S and SE, with the W and SW healers within 40 yards of the MT and 40 yards of the OT so that they can double up on raid and both tanks. Then assign the south healers @ healing a specific group as well as MT.

Limitation of tanking Azgalor 100 yards away seems to have been lifted since the hotfix - although you probably don't want taurens/thrall clumping up too much.

 

• Khlysti

The rain does damage every 2 sec for 10 sec, if you take damage from it you gain Unquenchable Flames, dealing damage every second for 5 secs.

So basically if you take one tick of RoF before you get out you would get
0.00 RoF damage
0.00 ++Unquenchable++
0.01 UF damage
0.02 UF damage
0.03 UF damage
0.04 UF damage
0.05 UF damage

Its just some nice bonus damage added on to the end of the RoF to make it very harsh if you just stay in all the time (5 rof ticks, 15 UF ticks if you never move) and to make the minimum it can deal be 6 ticks (assuming you don't get out so quick it never ticks at all).

 

Lila

@ james (Hedera)

Positioning is very important in this fight. You need to position Azgalor in a way that makes it easy to spread out. The more spread you are the less people get hits by fire at the same time, thus less healers are trying to dodge RoF at the same time rather than healing.

I've just been Main Tank healer in this fight, and I position myself so far away from everyone and everything that I've only been hit by RoF one time in total during ~5 kills.

Also, if you have trouble keeping the Main Tank up during silence, even with several HoT classes on him, try having a few healers in capped Shadow Resistance gear. I tried this last time and resisted about 70% of the silences.

Alternatively you can have a healer group with Improved Concentration Aura (reduces the duration of any Silence or Interrupt effect used against an affected group member by 30%) or the neck from Morogrim Tidewalker in SSC (Pendant of the Lost Ages - Items - World of Warcraft) or Keli'dan the Breaker in Blood Furnace (Talisman of the Breaker - Items - World of Warcraft).

 

piratkopia

This might be a bitt off topic but we just entered BT for the first time and after the first night in BT we couldn't take down Naj'entus.

We have different problems.
As we red this fight needs 8-9 healers we attuned 9 for the first time.
3 palas 1 holy priest 3 shamans and additional 2 feral druids are healing .
Our problem is following: our tank is getting crushing blow's on every 2nd attempt ..and we dont know why . furthermore we have problem with the raid healing .. as it takes us too much time to heal up and break the shield and we loos heavily on DPS. We didnt use anything until now despite flasks ( no FR potion or anything) and our best attempt was 30% but the healers were already very low on mana ...
Also I see here melee DMG does a lot better than ranged .. (as a warlock I hardly use Lifetap to spare healer mana ) ... as we still ahve 2 night of attempts with this team i would be very greatful for any tips . I mean we have ideas but i feel we do something really bad taktik wise...
We do spread out we do loot the spines and throw the if everyone is full but somehow it takes a lot more time .. i tought on something similar as we did in naxx with the mashroom man loatheb first shiled potion 2nd shield HS 3rd shield potion 4th Hs 5th potion and we nuke it down any ideas what we do wrong ?

 

Illundai

We use 8 healers for Naj and from the top of my head a few things that would help:

a) Give your healers your shadowpriests, they'll need them.
b) Get everyone to have 10k hp, I know you don't need more than 8,5k to survive, but 10k gives you a little leeway. That way not everyone has to be on full, but more or less on 85% hp. Throw your spine as soon as you can, don't wait for everyone to be at 100%. As long as they can survive it, you should be fine.
c) Have a druid healing the raid, you said they were feral so I imagine it could be a little tough for them - we have a tree druid hotting up the raid and then 2-3 paladins assigned to MT, rest of our healers are group healing.
d) Shaman on melee, of course. Any other Resto shaman on a group. Chain heal is very powerful here.

I really can't think of anymore things, he's not that hard, really.

 

Lodekim

If you have a timer for the shield (bigwigs has one) you can know it's coming, and make it required that everyone is topped up before a shield goes up, that way you can give it a short count to get the last bubble for low hp people or someone who just got hit and then break it. Waiting for everyone to be at 100% will be a big judgement call, if you make it expected that everyone is topped up and just wait a few seconds and throw it, he won't heal as much and people will just have to learn to top off the raid.

As for crushings on the tank, he should be preventing them mostly with shield block up constantly, but on top of that, a crushing shouldn't be fatal on Naj'entus. Right now with the gear I'm at (I hate you 31% dodge) I end up hoping for crushings sometimes to give me enough rage to hold aggro. If a single crushing is killing him outside of maybe if it comes at the exact same time as the shield popping, he's not being healed up enough. He should be able to stop most of them, but from time to time he'll get parried, the mob will attack faster, and a crushing blow will get through.

 

piratkopia

This might be a bitt off topic but we just entered BT for the first time and after the first night in BT we couldn't take down Naj'entus.

We have different problems.
As we red this fight needs 8-9 healers we attuned 9 for the first time.
3 palas 1 holy priest 3 shamans and additional 2 feral druids are healing .
Our problem is following: our tank is getting crushing blow's on every 2nd attempt ..and we dont know why . furthermore we have problem with the raid healing .. as it takes us too much time to heal up and break the shield and we loos heavily on DPS. We didnt use anything until now despite flasks ( no FR potion or anything) and our best attempt was 30% but the healers were already very low on mana ...
Also I see here melee DMG does a lot better than ranged .. (as a warlock I hardly use Lifetap to spare healer mana ) ... as we still ahve 2 night of attempts with this team i would be very greatful for any tips . I mean we have ideas but i feel we do something really bad taktik wise...
We do spread out we do loot the spines and throw the if everyone is full but somehow it takes a lot more time .. i tought on something similar as we did in naxx with the mashroom man loatheb first shiled potion 2nd shield HS 3rd shield potion 4th Hs 5th potion and we nuke it down any ideas what we do wrong ?

 

piratkopia

Sry double post my net provider dropped and it said "failure"

 

piratkopia

he got this last night in 2 sec:

5k ; 5k; 9k crushing..
He is in 2/5 t5 and other ssc and kael epics I really dont knwo whats wrong but its liek on every 2nd attempt he is getting crushings .. and he really pushes shield block all the time ...dunno what it is . We tried the healing as you guys said I means shadow priest with healers etc. tough we didnt had any tree druid , wich might help a lot cos they are great raid healers . anyway thx for all teh info we will try again witha little respecc and hope for "non crushing attempts"

 

Illundai

Naj'entus really shouldn't crush that often, do you have pets or melee attacking him from the front or what?

 

Paa

We killed najentus recently and well i was dissapointed to hear so many "Brag" that he's free loot for entry into black temple. It's one of the most healing intensive fights in the entire game.

We did everything possible to help our healers out and we had a kill shortly after.

Healthstones, Bandages (You can bandage fully every single minute) frost potions all help alot.

I would agree with the above comment and add that 10k HP is an absolute bare minimum for this fight.

Rogues can CloS out of the attack and dps warriors can go defensive stance to reduce the damage and melee is brutally effective on Najentus so buff them accordingly.

 

piratkopia

Does this affect crushing blows on the MT ?
If yes this might be the problem ..
But noone is in 6y raduis of the MT if you mean that .
We dismiss pets as they dies fast and dmg melee aswell....

I must already say Naj'entus is by far not free loot for a guild just starting BT ..

 

Renew

Naj'entus is pretty much 100% on your healing delegation. The first few weeks we pretty much were winging it with healing assignments and would wipe over and over. Since then we delegated healing a bit and he goes down without issues.

Priests with PoH are amazing at keeping a group up, a tree can keep a group up as well as keep some fat HoTs on the MT, Shaman are amazing at keeping up the melee and two Paladins should be enough to keep the MT up. If you have extra healers toss them on group assignments or help out with melee / Warlocks.

Confidence is not Arrogance.

 

Renew