The real problem would be with the guilds clearing for the first time or one of their early clears seeing it. For us most items are decided pretty quickly, with a few taking longer because of how our system works, but that's not a problem because someone could alt tab and afk to check during trash if we had a non retarded group (like the weeks we have to bring 8 apps at once or something, though that's rare) But for a guild that needs every point of damage to keep em clear, anything is going to be a hassle.

Simple solution that also prevents people from bringing like 5 people and using the NPCs to kill a few mobs, let Jaina die, and repeat:

Just have a small chest/coffer spawn (or maybe have a chance of spawning) after each wave is completed, that has some Marks of the Illidari, some gold, a random epic gem, and the chance for a trash-only epic. Have those coffers stick around for 20-30 mins at least, like Majordomo or Chess or Ramparts or whatever. Sort them out after you kill the boss or wipe, whichever.

Distribute loot after the Boss (or a wipe), should stay around long enough. If they had any "normal" loot it could certainly be an annoyance... I'd prefer not having to bother looting a few silver every second wave.

Having a chest spawn would probably be the best, dont see how you could deal with it otherwise without taking 1 player out of the fight permanently just to loot the mobs.

The only way to deal with loot fast would be to have group loot and just clickspam the corpses if they drop epics like other trash mobs. Has anyone tried killing a few trash mobs on the PTR just to find out the rate of reputation gained and how they dealt with loot?

I'm still a bit wary about people bringing a handful and managing the first wave; all you need its some stuns. The first wave should definatly be incapable of dropping items, and perhaps shouldn't give rep as well?

Is it really so bad if people want to "farm" the first wave for what I assume is going to be a minimal drop rate on epics? Item aquisition is mostly based on the time you put in. If someone (or a few people) form a small farm group to kill 1-2 ghouls per ~5-10 min reset of Jaina, is it really so bad if they get 1 epic per 4 hours of work?

As it is, we already have warlocks who solo trash mobs in Black Temple during the night after our raids end, and have gotten many, many epic gems, hearts, marks, and some BOP drops. Why would Hyjal deserve special treatment?

Its not closed i checked it my self for checking rep on trash, however if you start with a attunement i do not know.

Rep for rings and recipes is the only reason I would do it, and with the meager about of rep the mobs seem to give, I doubt anyone would want or need to farm it. I really don't think its a problem either.

Did you manage to kill something with the help of NPCs? Curious about the amount rep rewarded by each mob.

first wave of ptr patches they gave 3 rep, with the occasional 4 from human bonus.

Last time i was on ptr (a patch ago) they weren't giving rep at all. Both times was with just me starting the waves and tagging mobs. Also just kiting some stuff from the scourge camp into the npcs without the event.

So thats something on the order of ~300-400 rep per trash clear for a boss. Depending on how much they reduced the rep from bosses you might be looking at around ~3000 rep for a full clear if you one shot everything.

I like the idea of a chest spawn. It also avoids the problem of being not in range for the loot while fighting in the horde camp (when flyers spawn in the backfield).

We have an issue with illidan teleport. First night of attempt we got a seconde teleportation directly to illidari council room, but after the reset of instance, we don't have this teleportation anymore, and it's a little bit anoying if we want use soulstone, ankh and battle rez during a good attempt.

Is there something special to do ?

*Edit* : spirit of udalo says : "Illidan's lackeys still guard these halls, Weedwalker. Once they are defeated, my porwers will allow me to take you deeper inside the temple."

No, it's a bug until 2.2. The teleporter stops working once you soft-reset the zone once.

Honestly though recovering up there really isn't too bad. Once you're to the point of using battle rezzes and such in phase 3, you're probably close to killing him anyway.

Might as well just use your soulstones for wipe recovery. . . the fight is long enough that even two warlocks will probably be able to swap if you've made some good progress on the fight, none of the deaths are really predictable, and there's no point in soulstoning the tanks because if they die it's unlikely you'll be able to recover with a soulstone.

Which is why I'm of the mind that the clear, wipe, and repeat method might be worth it for a guild that has the Tier 6 instances on farm. As I said before, granted, it's not like you won't get exalted eventually but what else are you going to do? We went back and cleared SSC last night and raided Ironforge and Stormwind to kill faction bosses but if people are willing I think it's probably a better use of time.

My guild killed Mother Shahraz on our last attempt of the night after many countless wipes(lol FA on tanks). I can't imagine how frustrating guilds could get doing this lame encounter every week because my guild's morale was really low through the night. The other casters and I felt so useless considering that I only did 10k more damage than the MT. Hopefully Illdari Council isn't that bad and take down Illidan in the next week or so

My guild killed Mother Shahraz in less than 3 hours after our first ever pull then spent the entire next night wiping on Illidari Council.

I'm not sure how that works.

Its not an uncommon phenomenon for guilds to struggle on bosses other have an easy time with and vice versa. It all depends on the strenghts of your guild. Does your guild have very good DPS classes? DPS race fights wont be a problem. Good healers? Healing intensive fights like Naj'entus & Gurtogg would be easy.

Although Shahraz is probably a special case where luck plays a part.

You got lucky.

The fight is roughly 50% skill, 50% luck.

First, the luck: FA ports on tanks can lead to insta gib of tanks. FA Ports on the melee can lead to insta gibs of melee. FA ports on the raid can lead to insta gibs for casters. In addition, bad ports can lead to people not being able to seperate quick enough and lead to a lot of damage which leads to deaths. Also, the randomness of mana burn and lash can lead to wipes.

The skill part... Eventually your raid will get better at handling FA in all aspects. People will seperate faster, people will learn how to use pots and consumables to save their ass in bad FA ports.

However, occasions where you will still question the fight mechanics when you get multiple FA ports on your raid (melee clump or caster clumps). While you may not lose anyone, the strain it puts on your healer mana is enormous.

Our kill last week had 2 consecutive ports on the caster clump, while not direct ports onto them, they were close enough that at 80%, all of our healers were already taxed for mana because of the mass amount of healing we had to do for those 2 ports. We decided to just wipe it and go again because we knew we would face mana issues late in the fight.

It probably worked out for the best, next pull we killed her.


Anyway, the fight is getting retuned at least, so hopefully we won't have to put up with this bullshit for much longer.

Tank gibs caused by FA seem to be less common than most people complaining about the fight would have you believe. Sure, it can happen if you get bad resist rolls and a spike from Shahraz, but most of the time the death is preventable through good timer use from the tank and healers being on the ball (big purple explosions near the tank = spam/pop instants). I'm sure a good number of complaints about "unavoidable deaths" were caused by pure player error like a priest popping a shadowfiend from the front and causing a parry-gib, people just don't always look for some more subtle things so they don't identify the real cause.

Same thing with separating on FA. I've not seen a single port that caused unavoidable death aside from getting ported inside a bench where you literally cannot get away in time. Even if you're stuck between a wall and the raid/tank with a triple port, 1 person standing still and 2 running opposite directions is healable; "cannot get away in time" is an exaggeration the vast majority of the time. Most deaths that occurred when people separated correctly were caused by people not being properly topped off in the caster camp prior to the FA. We solved that by reassigning healers (resto shms in particular).
Mana really wasn't an issue on any attempts either (and by not an issue, I mean we didn't ever wipe because healers ran out of mana once we had healing assignments and group composition adjusted), even with large FA raid damage, and I doubt we've been lucky on mana burns every single attempt. Make sure healers are chain mana potting and not wasting pot cooldowns on shadow protection. Also, looking through WWS's for Shahraz, most shadow priests are SEVERELY under performing in terms of mana returned from VT (and damage output in general), even when the WWS shows them taking little damage from FA. Make sure chain heal spammers have your top-performing shadow priest.

You are absolutely right, it is NOT very common, but that is not the point.
If it is even possible it is too much. Having something like this happen with a lash, sinister, triple FA with bad resists on the tank under 10% is one way to make your night sparkle with happiness.

A sinister/FA can lead to an unavoidable death - period. The fact that you have no seen this almost astonishes me, or makes me think you just forgot. You can pop an HS, pot and still easily be dead before the fourth pulse. 35000 resistable damage in 2.0 seconds is not skill.

The skill aspect of this fight is totally overblown. We're very good at this fight and we can still readily wipe on any pull (I would say the 1 in 3 to 1 in 2 shot touted by celebrity earlier is about right - do the math on how that can turn out, plenty of 1 shots, plenty of pain) - we've tried numerous strategies and none make shit bit of difference.

I think group composition determines your success more than anything, and paradoxically more casters ends up being better often times because with too many melee the melee camp becomes a huge clump of 12 people that acts like "1 camp" anyway, increasing your chances of a painful port.

We typically survive ports on the raid, but coupled with a vile/sinister you're going to almost certainly lose 1 or 2 people. But lately what wipes us is when we'll get 3 MT healers ported inside the couch, or on the MT, followed by some retarded beam - or a set of what feels like infinite wicked beams.

The problem is the way resist mechanics work in this game.
Tank deaths are rarely an issue, everyone thinks because I bring it up we have some abnormally high level of tank deaths, we don't, but it is still an issue.
You sure as hell can get instagibbed in full SR and T6 in the remaining spots, even with constant heals and AH (I've tried 200 through 365 SR, mid 200's has worked best for me). Even if it only happens once every 2-3 weeks, its still stupid as can be. People can surely do simple math here and prove to themselves it is readily possible without parries - add those parries in, and golly-gee, wonder what is going to happen - how the fuck is skill going to make up for that? 4000 sinister (50%), 9000 FA (50%), 7500 lash (33%), one paired hit (6,500, 3,500) and you're dead. Now add a parry in there, maybe add an offtank being ported, maybe some poor resists - in theory you can get numbers that are just absurd, so the chances of a more common and lethal combination happening are certainly there.

One opinion (that I've heard repeated numerous times) is that the problem with this fight is FA being put in a random spot.
Wouldn't this fight be simply better if FA was sent to one consistent and relative location? Wouldn't that have all the difficulty elements the devs appeared to have designed? and all the difficulty elements in a 1 camp strategy when they get lucky? Wouldn't it remove many port problems, or unavoidable death situations? Why does fatal attraction hit other members of the raid anyway? As the DnT poster said in a previous thread, FA's behavior almost appears bugged.

The problem here is the way they've basically taken 10 random abilities and mashed them all together in a soup and called it a winning encounter with little-to-no testing. This fight takes about as much skill as running away from the raid on grobbulus when you turn bright green. I'm sure grobbulus would be considered "hard" if the person running away did 10,000 NR damage per second. But the fight would still be dumb.

Also having two offtanks sit there and pick their ass all day is such a good example of how terrible this fight is. Yeah you can have two paladins come in there and OT - but how many guilds are realistically going to do this... and many this would be the only fight they're using an OT paladin for. If you have this option, fantastic, but you're still looking at a prot paladin, in full SR, getting silenced about 15% at random, casting heals. Its dumb.

This fight should be nuked from orbit, just like Gruul 1.0. After 7 or 8 kills of Mother Shahraz my opinion on her hasn't changed at all. And for that matter Illdari could use some serious tweaking. Its too long, too boring, too simple, and mostly too easy. Last time we wiped on Illdari I think it was because someone fell asleep. You can figure out if I'm joking.