Healer mana has been a serious issue for us. Our first three kills we were scraping the bottom of the barrel for the last 15%. The only reason we got the kills is because EVERYONE who was capable of healing WAS healing. Ferals, shadow priests, all shaman. The only time it hasn't been an issue was the one time we stacked 10 healers.
Another luck factor that wasn't mentioned was number of people ported. If you get a run with 5-10 one or two person ports you're goddamn GOLDEN. I would bet anything that people who killed Shahraz very quickly did it on an attempt where more than half the ports weren't 3 ports. We've seen it make a gigantor difference. On our first kill we got a huge stretch, like 50% to 15%, where we got no 3 ports. I'm quite sure it was instrumental in allowing the kill to happen.
Healer mana has been a serious issue for us. Our first three kills we were scraping the bottom of the barrel for the last 15%. The only reason we got the kills is because EVERYONE who was capable of healing WAS healing. Ferals, shadow priests, all shaman. The only time it hasn't been an issue was the one time we stacked 10 healers.
Another luck factor that wasn't mentioned was number of people ported. If you get a run with 5-10 one or two person ports you're goddamn GOLDEN. I would bet anything that people who killed Shahraz very quickly did it on an attempt where more than half the ports weren't 3 ports. We've seen it make a gigantor difference. On our first kill we got a huge stretch, like 50% to 15%, where we got no 3 ports. I'm quite sure it was instrumental in allowing the kill to happen.
Drop snake traps, they almost guarantee you'll never see more then a couple 3-ports per fight
Like all manaburns you can only resist the damage but not the manadrain-component.
They should change the mechanics of it.
That it dies damage first and for example 2xdamage as manadrain. This way you can get partial resists and +spelldamage would help to increase it too (for priests).
After spending a full day on her with complete madness things happening - do snake traps actually work?(she's dead, but shes still utter pain)
Yes, it also targets totems and pets. From what I understand any time you don't have 3 people ported it targetted something that it couldn't port as one of the targets. Snake traps (and extra shaman) drastically increase the number of unportable targets.
I had read the Mother Shahraz thread before we attempted her and after a full night with 1 shaman we never saw anything except 3 ports, yet the thread kept talking about 1-2 ports. After further investigation it became apparent that those people posting had far more shaman than we did, hence the easier teleports occuring. With this in mind I told the hunters to drop snake traps and instantly we had a ton of 1-2 ports and the 3-ports became the rarities.
Also snake traps eat Mother's beams which is also pretty nice. In summary snake traps > Mother.
We had all our shamans lay down multiple totems, everyone have pets out, etc etc... and it didn't seem to affect the # of ports whatsoever. Keep in mind this is a low sample size. I wonder if you can't affect it more by laying down WF totems just before the FA is imminent. The targetting mechanic for teron and illidan p2 seems to suggest this could work.
It is probably hunter pets and air/fire totems though that cause empty FA's. I'd assume offtank/MT are also on that list (we've had non-dooms casted by az'galor before, and I can only assume thats when he targets the MT).
They mentioned they were going to fix the FA target issue in 2.2. Yet another fix that would offer some consistency here.
I'm willing to try out snake traps though - they're kinda cool on teron.
We had all our shamans lay down multiple totems, everyone have pets out, etc etc... and it didn't seem to affect the # of ports whatsoever. Keep in mind this is a low sample size. I wonder if you can't affect it more by laying down WF totems just before the FA is imminent. The targetting mechanic for teron and illidan p2 seems to suggest this could work.
It is probably hunter pets and air/fire totems though that cause empty FA's. I'd assume offtank/MT are also on that list (we've had non-dooms casted by az'galor before, and I can only assume thats when he targets the MT).
They mentioned they were going to fix the FA target issue in 2.2. Yet another fix that would offer some consistency here.
I'm willing to try out snake traps though - they're kinda cool on teron.
I seem to recall thinking that the Dooms that don't hit people get resisted. If they are resistable though I doubt it's affected by shadow resist, i'll see if I can catch it in any logs one of these weeks.
I'll definitely make them try the snake trap since at this point pretty much the only wipes are the very rare bad resist FA port with a melee/lash/melee combo and if someone is retarded with FA or exactly what we'd see less, bad ports, that just sounds too fun to not try.
You are absolutely right, it is NOT very common, but that is not the point.
If it is even possible it is too much. Having something like this happen with a lash, sinister, triple FA with bad resists on the tank under 10% is one way to make your night sparkle with happiness.
I completely agree that the extreme combos need to be removed, but I think their frequency really does not justify the amount of complaints. My post was in response to a guy claiming the fight was FIFTY percent luck. I dont buy that. After she's patched there will probably still be some changes that need to be made to eliminate some of these, but I'm pretty confident that they will minor in the grand scheme of things. She will be a lot easier.
Maybe I'm more patient than a lot of people but I realize that you can't expect perfection from the start, even with good QA, and you can't hotfix everything. I am willing to accept that there will be an occasional bullshit wipe if it's a known issue with a scheduled fix unless it's just ridiculously common. It sucks for the minority that honestly does get screwed repeatedly, but at least you can leash her easily until its fixed. I'm pretty pleased with the encounter quality in BT/Hyjal as a whole. It could have been better but I wasn't disappointed.
Originally Posted by Quigon
A sinister/FA can lead to an unavoidable death - period. The fact that you have no seen this almost astonishes me, or makes me think you just forgot. You can pop an HS, pot and still easily be dead before the fourth pulse. 35000 resistable damage in 2.0 seconds is not skill.
Huh? Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, but 3xFA is 9000 dps until you get out of range (3k per player applied every 1 second), and sinister beam is 2000. So assuming you throw in the sinister beam anywhere, it's t=1: 11000, t=2: 20000, t=3: 29000, t=4: 38000 all resistable. It's not very nice, but I don't see how that's a guaranteed death. I'd consider it roughly acceptable to expect you to get a heal from an outside source or break the link within 3-4 seconds if you get bad luck. Sprint/blink allow the link to be broken very quickly and many classes have additional survival tools at their disposal, so you'd also have to get unlucky on the classes ported. The fight is certainly not well tuned in its current implementation, but we know a patch is coming with pretty major changes. I'm not saying it's entirely skill based, but good enough player performance makes her "good enough till patch". She's not broken enough to warrant the increased development costs of releasing a mini-patch to fix her.
If he means a sinister on someone who got FA'd (and not on the tanks), it will often lead to a death. Sinister only does 2000 damage upon being hit, but the impact from landing afterwards does half your health. A sinister being thrown in immediately before or after an FA is *probably* going to kill you. We've had people live through them before but it's the least avoidable death in the encounter frankly (except, of course, being ported inside objects).
After having done the fight quite a few times now, I'd say that I think it's extremely, extremely hard, and frankly probably too hard. We still usually kill her in less than 3 pulls every week, but one week we wiped on her for a day and a half. Very stupid design and all that. But to be honest, it really is the only truly hard fight in the the tier 6 dungeons, and BT / Hyjal are going to be pretty easy after Shahraz gets smashed with the nerf bat next patch.
But to be honest, it really is the only truly hard fight in the the tier 6 dungeons, and BT / Hyjal are going to be pretty easy after Shahraz gets smashed with the nerf bat next patch.
That's something that I've really become curious about as of late. How much more difficult would we consider BT / Hyjal if we hadn't first had to get past the Kael'Thelas and to a lesser extent Lady Vashj encounters? I'm of the mind that once you've beaten Kael, you've essentially completed the most difficult encounter in the game in terms of ramping up guild performance and accountability of every player. Obviously as your guild moves on, the encounter loses a lot of its shine and mystique in the face of players simply out-gearing the zone, but for it's place in the progression tree it's really an incredible encounter.
Is it all a matter of relativity? Would the BT / Hyjal encounters seem more epic if we never had to learn and experience Kael?
Difficulty is a question of perception, and perception is always relative. So yes, they'd seem like a bigger deal. Kael'thas and Vashj really ensure that no guild without a very solid level of performance, analytical approach to DPS, great coordination etc. will even see T6-level encounters. In addition, a lot of the difficulty in the marquee encounters throughout the history of WoW raiding has come from new mechanics, new elements of fights that you'd never seen before and had to master to progress. That's not really the case in TBC...most of the difficult fights in BT rely on heavy raid damage and a couple elements you've already seen and mastered to get to that point (interrupts, personal survival, that kind of thing). Hell, even the Doomfires on Archimonde are fundamentally the same as Ouro's quakes. In terms of original mechanics, I'd say Shahraz is the most unique fight in T6 (perhaps why she's so difficult to learn, though there are some stupid elements that have already been covered at great length).
If he means a sinister on someone who got FA'd (and not on the tanks), it will often lead to a death. Sinister only does 2000 damage upon being hit, but the impact from landing afterwards does half your health. A sinister being thrown in immediately before or after an FA is *probably* going to kill you. We've had people live through them before but it's the least avoidable death in the encounter frankly (except, of course, being ported inside objects).
I thought that's what he meant but that wouldn't be 35000 resistable damage in 2 seconds, unless you can resist fall damage now. Even assuming the toss, many classes have the ability to deal with it. Slow fall, levitate, ice block, blink, safe fall, cat form safe fall, intervene/intercept, divine shield, and blessing of protection all prevent or greatly mitigate fall damage. That leaves hunter, warlock, and shaman. If you're not one of those classes it's not really an issue.
And I'm pretty sure your math is wrong. FA starts effectively at time 0 due to the way it applies and teleports, and lag/reaction. You get afflicted by it just under 1 second before the first damage hits, but it seems to be ticking immediately upon porting. So you've taken 18k resistible in the first 1.0 seconds - which was another issue brought up regarding the ability.
Its 27k + 8k. Pretty straightforward.
The sinful beam can 25% for over half your health at the same moment you've been FA teleported.
Also you say that you don't buy that the fight is fifty percent luck. What? The fight is practically 100% luck. She can single and double teleport all night, and a guild that has never seen her could one shot her with the right luck. Likewise a guild with 10 kills under their belt could wipe on a pull where she chain wicked beams, sinful/FAs, or ports the MT healers into furniture or onto the MT/melee over and over with low resists.
This fight is nothing but luck. Even when you master if you have about a 1 in 2 (at best) and probably more like a 1 in 3 chance of winning, even if you play perfectly. So yeah you can ultimately improve to some decent chance, but you still run a more-than-reasonable chance of wiping.
To Exigent, that's an interesting question, but I'm sure it varies from guild to guild. The hard parts of Kael I think came pretty easy to us, figuring out orders and handling the advisers easily, figuring out Pyroblasts after I think the first night when we had one wipe to the pyroblasts. Most of our wipes were to someone getting themselves killed and leaving us short on damage, so personally I'm more influenced by hard Naxx fights than Kael'thas as I never found him that hard.
As for Shahraz, I think as you do the fight more you see the problems more. On our first kill I thought it'd be easily repeatable, since we went from having OT's attacking and getting owned over and over again by parries, to stopping that and having a ~10% wipe and then a kill in the next 2 attempts. Anyone who's killed her once is likely to have a similar bias, because it feels like everything fell together. Then when she's on farm status and you still go "whoops tank got insta gibbed" "Whoops that FA was awful" that it just bothers you. Yes a lot of wipes are still from someone doing something wrong, but a 3 port to a semi bad spot can still lead to a death just from bad resists, and it gets very annoying.
Of course despite losing two rogues at like 80% and for some reason deciding not to leash, having a 3-port directly into the center of our one ranged stack at 30%, etc., was still a one-shot, albeit with 16 alive at the end. Of course that's with heavy raid-stacking... we bring 10 healers weekly at this point.
Of course despite losing two rogues at like 80% and for some reason deciding not to leash, having a 3-port directly into the center of our one ranged stack at 30%, etc., was still a one-shot, albeit with 16 alive at the end. Of course that's with heavy raid-stacking... we bring 10 healers weekly at this point.
We had both offtanks ported on top of me on the first FA of the first pull with both their backs turned. Then saber lashed immediately after for 22k.
It was literally instant, and possibly the most epic death yet.
Then we got our legendary illidan pair, so fuck you Shahraz - next week.
09/04/07, 5:27 PM
Similar Threads
