I think sometimes that from reading these threads people hear the word "benching" and conjure up these horrible images of being the last person left to be picked for dodgeball back in 5th grade P.E. The truth is, most guild's class channels work out amongst themselves who will be going or not going and the opportunity to skip out on a raid now and then and still get DKP can be a welcome break. I know I would much rather sit out a couple fights than be expected to respec and keep two sets of gear at an optimal state for raiding.
Since it seems that many fights in t6 (and some in t5) content require raidstacking, most of the time healers, i do wonder whether it is really is necessity or merely perfectionism to really bench people instead of making hybrids switch gear an role for one fight or so? Perhaps this is the reason Blizzard made some fights quasirequire much more healing than the usual setup? Another way to make hybrids viable?
We do change groups during a raid, because we can i suppose, but when we were learning Karatress and were short on healers we just made the enhancement shaman put on his healing skirt and spam chainheals and it worked well enough.
We are working on Kael at the moment so obviously i have no idea how it would fare on those stacking encounters in BT, but when i read 10 healers on Mother Sharazz and 9 on Guttorg, could those not just be done with the "standard" raids when the hybrids just heal? Or maybe some of them? Yes you'd lose some efficiency but how much is the efficiency loss of having many geared attuned people on the bench? Correct me if i'm wrong but if you just need more raw hps power on some fights, these things a x-specced hybrid can do just as well if he's got the gear?
I must agree with Whiteknight on this... it is way too easy to sub out for a 'real' healer and you get substantially more benefit. If they want fights that encourage Hybrid healing, they'll start implementing fights that require a high amount of healing in one part and low damage, and a high amount of damage with low healing in another part.
It's entirely possible that this is what bliz had in mind. However - as long as pure specs are significantly better than hybrids in an offspec role, it'll be optimal to simply swap in more pure classes or respec hybrids so that they aren't 'off'spec. As Sebudai said, respecs are pretty common. All of our hybrids have really good offspec gear and are totally willing to respec. Sometimes just for a fight or two.
Lose a swiftmend on a druid, and earthshield on a shaman, and a bit of manaefficiency, (which can be helped with pot chugging), is than really so much of a difference in t6? Provided you already have an earthshield and a tree in your raid. We don't have nonholy palas and we wouldn't want to lose shadowpriest manabatterys.
Originally Posted by Ribeye
I think sometimes that from reading these threads people hear the word "benching" and conjure up these horrible images of being the last person left to be picked for dodgeball back in 5th grade P.E. The truth is, most guild's class channels work out amongst themselves who will be going or not going and the opportunity to skip out on a raid now and then and still get DKP can be a welcome break. I know I would much rather sit out a couple fights than be expected to respec and keep two sets of gear at an optimal state for raiding.
I know too well that people have no problem with sitting out and getting dkp, its just reading "10 healers" makes me feel uneasy, as I know it would be very unlikely to have enough raiding healers on that day when we needed them, end even more unlikely on weekly basis. To let people port to Orgrimmar to respec for a boss or two then port again to respec back every lockout, isn't too appealing either.
I guess we'll see it when we see it....
Last edited by Kargoroth : 09/15/07 at 12:35 PM.
Reason: clarification
As said, we use 9-10 healers on Archimonde. 8 pure and 1-2 hybrids in healing gear. When you need this many healers, it's usually not due to the amount that needs to be healed, but more because of the multitude of heals that need to be thrown in a short period of time.
Lose a swiftmend on a druid, and earthshield on a shaman, and a bit of manaefficiency, (which can be helped with pot chugging), is than really so much of a difference in t6? Provided you already have an earthshield and a tree in your raid. We don't have nonholy palas and we wouldn't want to lose shadowpriest manabatterys.
I know too well that people have no problem with sitting out and getting dkp, its just reading "10 healers" makes me feel uneasy, as I know it would be very unlikely to have enough raiding healers on that day when we needed them, end even more unlikely on weekly basis. To let people port to Orgrimmar to respec for a boss or two then port again to respec back every lockout, isn't too appealing either.
I guess we'll see it when we see it....
Who said you have to do Archimonde or Illidan with 10 healers? We definately don't use 10 healers. Not quite sure how many we use on Bloodboil, but its 8 I think.
I think sometimes that from reading these threads people hear the word "benching" and conjure up these horrible images of being the last person left to be picked for dodgeball back in 5th grade P.E. The truth is, most guild's class channels work out amongst themselves who will be going or not going and the opportunity to skip out on a raid now and then and still get DKP can be a welcome break. I know I would much rather sit out a couple fights than be expected to respec and keep two sets of gear at an optimal state for raiding.
Yeah, exactly. Many of our 100%-attendance raiders are quite happy to sit out and PvP, level an alt, or just alt-tab and do whatever else, and be available if needed. When I say I want to drop 2 mages and add a shaman and a resto druid for Shahraz, I've said that ahead of time, and the players involved are the ones who decide who it'll be. They either rotate informally or maybe only one person needs loot from that boss or whatever. It really doesn't cause any problems at all. I like to have 33-35 players around on any given raid night, and it really isn't a bad thing in any way.
Yeah, exactly. Many of our 100%-attendance raiders are quite happy to sit out and PvP, level an alt, or just alt-tab and do whatever else, and be available if needed. When I say I want to drop 2 mages and add a shaman and a resto druid for Shahraz, I've said that ahead of time, and the players involved are the ones who decide who it'll be. They either rotate informally or maybe only one person needs loot from that boss or whatever. It really doesn't cause any problems at all. I like to have 33-35 players around on any given raid night, and it really isn't a bad thing in any way.
We've been building our guild all the way through SSC/TK with this in mind. Not only does it offer flexibility but it also give people a chance to take a break every so often without crippling the guild. The real key is to make sure you aren't over saturating a given class. Also letting the classes micro manage themselves is something that has made the my life and our other officers lives much much easier. It promotes inner teamwork and takes any hostility off of me for letting raider x into more raids then raider y. I just have to specify what classes I want for a fight and tell them to tell me who.
Yeah, exactly. Many of our 100%-attendance raiders are quite happy to sit out and PvP, level an alt, or just alt-tab and do whatever else, and be available if needed. When I say I want to drop 2 mages and add a shaman and a resto druid for Shahraz, I've said that ahead of time, and the players involved are the ones who decide who it'll be. They either rotate informally or maybe only one person needs loot from that boss or whatever. It really doesn't cause any problems at all. I like to have 33-35 players around on any given raid night, and it really isn't a bad thing in any way.
Sitting out nowadays isn't very painful anyways. I can make pretty good money farming spiders in Black Morass when sitting out of Hyjal and there are elementals of almost every flavor within a stone's throw of BT. This is nothing like sitting at my corpse for 4 hours at the AQ40 entrance if I was the last priest to login for a raid, and sometimes it's nice to save a few gold on consumables and just take it easy while still getting raid credit.
Going to bump this thread for some general questions, please be kind.
My guild has made the leap into T6, finally. Gotten our second Kael kill, starting to get extra people keyed for Hyjal/BT and all that wonderful logistical stuff.
My questions are about Anatheron and BT trash:
For Anatheron, we've cleared to him 3 times now. Gotten a fair grasp of the abilities, but still seem to be missing something I think. Our trouble seemed to be two-fold. We had 7 healers, 1 for the Infernal tank and 4 on MT and 2 raid healing. Trouble was the Carrion Swarm debuff lasts longer than the cooldown of the ability, so we had people getting hit twice in a row and getting killed since the healers on that side had the debuff. We tried to have the 6 healers spread out, in 3 groups of 2, each gorup 60% away form the other, so try and avoid too many healers getting debuffed, but we still seemed to have trouble getting the raid healed. Is there a better setup to use other than circling around him and is there a better way to setup the healing to deal with the Carrion debuff?
Also, going to be making our first foray into BT soon, to check out the first few bosses there. Any tips for the trash? Specifically any nasty abilities or things to be warned about for the Najentus/Supremus trash. Trying to find out what I can before we head in.
We had a problem like that early on. Mark the healers and make sure they spread out in a circle AND make sure they stand fairly close to Anetheron.
Healers by nature like to stand at maximum range of those they are healing. The problem on this fight is, when group 3 gets hit by Carrion Swarm, the only healer in range also has the debuff, so he can't heal. If the healers stay in a circle within 15 yards of Anetheron, they are in range of almost everyone.
We treat Aneth positioning kind of like Ouro back in the day. Triangle-based, so that at most a Swarm will only hit one group. We do also have one single healer off behind the MT that can only get Swarmed if Aneth targets him or targets the MT (2/25 chance) so there's usually one person constantly healing the MT with full effectiveness.
Clumping is key. People in tight clumps ensures that if one clump gets targeted, only that clump gets hit. People spreading out might bridge the gap between two clumps and get a dozen people Swarmed at the same time, which is bad.
Make sure Swarm is reasonably distributed, and rotate misdirections on Infernals, and it's hard to go wrong. (MD can be important -- having your Infernal tank get slept right as an Infernal lands can outright wipe you if not handled quickly.)
There's only a few trash packs that are particularly worrisome in the Naj'entus parts of Black Temple.
- The packs with generals can be handled a few ways, we just prefer dragging the generals over 100 yards away from the other mobs so they won't dispel crowd control on them. You can also just tank everything and kill the weaker mobs first I guess, though the raid damage taken could get nasty.
- The double Aqueous Lords right before Naj'entus himself can hurt. We found killing one, cleaning up adds spawned, killing the second works best. If you have a tank with an NR gear set it works well for tanking these mobs too since it heavily reduces the damage your tank(s) will take.
- The pack with a large amount of Aqueous Spawns directly after doing Naj'entus can be rather nasty as well due to high potential damage taken by the raid. Mostly a matter of good CC, spreading, and poison cleanse totems though.
I am not sure if it got fixed by now, but be careful with any pull including turtles before Naj'entus - kill those last.
The harpooners cast a debuff on someone that orders the nearest Dragon Turtle to attack him; if you already killed his turtle, then it's possible that a turtle of another pack aggroes on you, bringing alot of friends with it. We had that a few times with the pull before Naj'entus - all of a sudden we had the pack from the entrance adding all the way up there.
I am not sure if it got fixed by now, but be careful with any pull including turtles before Naj'entus - kill those last.
The harpooners cast a debuff on someone that orders the nearest Dragon Turtle to attack him; if you already killed his turtle, then it's possible that a turtle of another pack aggroes on you, bringing alot of friends with it. We had that a few times with the pull before Naj'entus - all of a sudden we had the pack from the entrance adding all the way up there.
Yea we experienced this last week which ended up causing a couple of wipes..
We've just gotten to BT to make a night of attempts on Illidan only to discover his door is closed and Akama isn't around the Illdari Council area to start the event but already up there.
Has anyone had this before?
We were able to get teleported up here and I've put in a GM ticket but if someone's had past experience with this and knows if a soft reset will fix this, we're starting in an hour.
We've just gotten to BT to make a night of attempts on Illidan only to discover his door is closed and Akama isn't around the Illdari Council area to start the event but already up there.
Has anyone had this before?
We were able to get teleported up here and I've put in a GM ticket but if someone's had past experience with this and knows if a soft reset will fix this, we're starting in an hour.
We've had this happen once. Yes, a soft reset did fix it.
We think it was caused by someone logging out on Illidan's platform the night before.
We've had this happen once. Yes, a soft reset did fix it.
We think it was caused by someone logging out on Illidan's platform the night before.
It happened to us last week, after we killed Council we stopped for the night without talking to Akama. The GM's fixed it, although it took about 2 hours.
Hateful strike. An melee attack that hits 2nd highest current health player in melee range for ~7000 hitpoints. Supremus - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki
Originally Posted by WoWHead
Hurtful Strike: A massive melee ability applied to the second highest on his aggro list. If there are no other melee targets in range, it will be performed on the main tank instead. Supremus - NPCs - World of Warcraft
My guild will be attempting Supremus tonight for the first time and we're finding conflicting information about whether Hurtful/Hateful strike targets 2nd highest threat, 2nd highest HP, or maybe a combination of the two? I googled, searched the EJ forums and couldn't find a definite answer. Can anyone help to clarify?
We treat Aneth positioning kind of like Ouro back in the day. Triangle-based, so that at most a Swarm will only hit one group. We do also have one single healer off behind the MT that can only get Swarmed if Aneth targets him or targets the MT (2/25 chance) so there's usually one person constantly healing the MT with full effectiveness.
Clumping is key. People in tight clumps ensures that if one clump gets targeted, only that clump gets hit. People spreading out might bridge the gap between two clumps and get a dozen people Swarmed at the same time, which is bad.
Make sure Swarm is reasonably distributed, and rotate misdirections on Infernals, and it's hard to go wrong. (MD can be important -- having your Infernal tank get slept right as an Infernal lands can outright wipe you if not handled quickly.)
Well the idea is right, but we don't treat the fight like "Ouro" per se.
If you have an even spread as opposed to 3 clumps, you should take less damage overall. He doesn't have a 120 degree arc to his swarm.
We also use SR on top of spreading out, and it trivializes what is otherwise a hard fight.
At this point I'd say azgalor is the hardest of the zone... but only due to his trash making the fight longer as a whole vs archimonde.
We've just recently made it into BT/Hyjal and I was wondering if anyone had thoughts on a progression kill order between the two zones. I don't know first hand, but it seems like is some latitude in kill order past Supremus in BT and there is always the option of pushing in Hyjal, where 8 waves per attempt probably dampens the learning curve. What has your experience been so far?
my guild experienced that despite the waves in hyjal, there is still a very good progression. this is caused by the relatively easy boss encounters (in fact we spent more wipes learning the waves than the actual boss). We did 1-4 in Hyjal, then played the temple until shade of akama and finally spent trys on archimonde. I think especially the psyche needs some rest after kaelthas before you try the next hard endboss (archi), who can be very frustrating because you need many more pulls for him than for every other encounter beforehands (at least this was true for my guild).
I must agree with Whiteknight on this... it is way too easy to sub out for a 'real' healer and you get substantially more benefit. If they want fights that encourage Hybrid healing, they'll start implementing fights that require a high amount of healing in one part and low damage, and a high amount of damage with low healing in another part.
Reliquary comes to mind, actually.
Well, it would if the bloody stupid ghost gauntlet didn't fuck up your OOC time nearly every attempt. It's an interesting ressurection of an idea for trash but the invisible AOE mobs and difficult-to-time patrol spawns means nearly every attempt seems to start with at least a few reds to kill in what should have been your pre-fight OOC time.
Well, it would if the bloody stupid ghost gauntlet didn't fuck up your OOC time nearly every attempt. It's an interesting ressurection of an idea for trash but the invisible AOE mobs and difficult-to-time patrol spawns means nearly every attempt seems to start with at least a few reds to kill in what should have been your pre-fight OOC time.
You might be doing this wrong then. Have the raid leader call when to move, and give him detect invisibility. We haven't had "adds" more than maybe once in 15ish kills.
You might be doing this wrong then. Have the raid leader call when to move, and give him detect invisibility. We haven't had "adds" more than maybe once in 15ish kills.
I was just timing it in my head to avoid the blue and purple patrols. Reds are patrols too?
09/15/07, 11:19 AM
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