weve come to a point where putting a feral druid in the MT group (and possibly a second enhance shaman) is more beneficial then giving it to hunters, increases the MT's tps by a significant amount, allowing for more raid dps..
Hunters:
BM hunter
BM hunter
Resto Shaman
S Priest
Feral
Healers:
Paly
Paly
Holy Priest
Resto Shaman
Paly
Any suggestions for how to change the groups would be greatly appreciated.
-I imagine the enhancement shaman would be better in your hunter group or even MT group.
-I'd swap a paladin into the MT group if the paladin has imp. devo aura + T5 bonus for any encounter where the MT is at risk of dying.
The unleashed rage buff from an enhancement shaman would only buff the shaman himself, the druid, and two hunter pets. Does not work on ranged attack power. Not nearly worth it when considering how powerful resto shaman healing is.
The unleashed rage buff from an enhancement shaman would only buff the shaman himself, the druid, and two hunter pets. Does not work on ranged attack power. Not nearly worth it when considering how powerful resto shaman healing is.
In the caster group the enhancement shaman benefits from nothing but the shadow priest and his buffs benefits nobody.
There is no downside to moving the resto shaman to the caster group. In fact, this would let him drop WoA for additional damage and healing.
The enhancement shaman in the hunter group would add improved totems to the hunters and feral, and give unleashed rage to the feral and pets. He would also receive benefit from ILOTP.
I don't see why the second shadow priest is going to the hunters and feral druid. Use some fel mana pots and keep your paladins judging wisdom. Get that shadow priest in your healer group, it's a huge benefit.
I don't see why the second shadow priest is going to the hunters and feral druid. Use some fel mana pots and keep your paladins judging wisdom. Get that shadow priest in your healer group, it's a huge benefit.
I think that the allocation of shadow priests depends heavily on the fight at hand. For example, shadow priests for healers is amazing for Najentus but almost worthless for Supremeus or Akama. There are plenty of examples of this and it's up to the raid leader to make the best decision at the time.
As far as shadow priests and their assignments, let's assume you have two shadow priests, and anywhere from 6 to 9 healers.
With 6 healers, 4 get a SP, because guaranteed, you'll have a tree druid and a resto shaman, both of whom should not be stacked in groups with other healers due to the utility of using them across the raid.
With 9 healers, you could give 8/9 shadow priest-age ... but again, if you're running with 9, you're so low on dps that your mages/locks/hunters *need* SPs to make up the differential.
I've found the key lies with giving one group of healers a SP, and spacing the others out around the raid. Your raid leader should have the ability to move people around ... put the people most likely to burn their mana in the SP group, and the rest can be swapped in as they drop.
For example, we run with 7 healers on Morogrim Tidewalker. 4 are assigned to MT, 1 to raid heals (mostly melee + hunters, from earthquake), and 2 to "grave area" -- one healing our paladin murloc tank, and one covering graves.
3 of the 4 MT healers and the paladin assigned to heal the murloc tank get the SP group. If the paladin who is the 4th MT healer gets low on mana, I switch him with one of the *other* MT healers who is highest in mana (from the SP group).
The resto shaman who raid heals just covers himself, and when he drops his Mana Tide, we switch him into a group that can most use it before he does, just to avoid wasting it.
Conclusion:
- healer heavy, all SPs go to dps
- healer light, most->all SPs go to healers
- healer medium, split them half/half
If you have the luxury of 3 shadow priests, then almost by default all but 1-2 of your healers get one (depending on who goes in the MT group -- i.e. resto shaman + tree druid + MT + MT + warlock => shaman/druid get no SP).
I just realized after coming back to this thread I made a typo in the group setup. Many of you noted the enh shaman in the caster group it should have been an ele shaman.
When forming a melee group, what is THE optimal (most raid dps) group set up?
-Enh Shaman
-Rogue
-Rogue
-Warrior
-(Rogue/War/Feral)?
Wondering what the best choice would be for the last spot.
And occasionally we do raid with a boomkin, for the good of the raid, should he spec into imp. faerie fire?
When forming a melee group, what is THE optimal (most raid dps) group set up?
-Enh Shaman
-Rogue
-Rogue
-Warrior
-(Rogue/War/Feral)?
Wondering what the best choice would be for the last spot.
And occasionally we do raid with a boomkin, for the good of the raid, should he spec into imp. faerie fire?
Thanks in advance.
Rogue.
Our DPS group is 3x Rogue, 1x DPS Warrior, 1x Enh Shammy.
Man if I could get a group setup like that every raid it would be next to impossible to ever pull anything except 1st on DMs.
Yea that is pretty much the best setup I could think of also if running 2 hunters.
One night for Karathress I got put into the melee group with me, enh sham, feral, 2 rogues. This happens once every century or so, but I was pleased with the buffs I got from that. Basically any combination of 2 of shaman/feral/spriest is welcome.
And occasionally we do raid with a boomkin, for the good of the raid, should he spec into imp. faerie fire?
Definitely make him get Imp FF, it's one of the only reasons to bring a Moonkin outside of the aura. You're certainly not bringing him for the DPS alone, and it's a pretty decent buff to have.
Definitely make him get Imp FF, it's one of the only reasons to bring a Moonkin outside of the aura. You're certainly not bringing him for the DPS alone, and it's a pretty decent buff to have.
I wouldn't be so quick in making a call for IFF.
What you have to understand is moonkin is very talent starved spec and asking for points in something that doesn't benefit him/herself severely gimps dps potential. Usually the moonkin would have to loose either 8% ~ 12% threat reduction or 20mp5 or a 12% spell damage coefficient. As you could imagine, losing any one of these would be devestating to any caster.
Of course, once you get into BT and melee DPS dps skyrockets there comes a point where some serious discussion could be had, but at SSC/TK level IFF really isn't worth the points unless your raid is extremely physical dps heavy.
I would never consider using a Moonkin druid without Improved Faerie Fire. The 'trade-offs' you've listed certainly do not compare to 3% hit for 10+ people. Not even close. 3% hit for a single rogue is more valuable than any of the things you've listed. Even at the SSC/TK level.
I would never consider using a Moonkin druid without Improved Faerie Fire. The 'trade-offs' you've listed certainly do not compare to 3% hit for 10+ people. Not even close. 3% hit for a single rogue is more valuable than any of the things you've listed. Even at the SSC/TK level.
The thing is, moonnkins become utterly useless without said trade-offs. You might as well bring another mage and forget IFF even existed. If warriors had to lose Imp Def or Shield Slam in order to gain something like IFF would you ask your tanks to do so? Or would you just bring another feral and not lose your sanity over the issue?
Another thing to note is that IFF is a 3 pointer.
You don't have to put in all 3 points. That can be a good thing or a bad thing.
The thing is, moonnkins become utterly useless without said trade-offs. You might as well bring another mage and forget IFF even existed. If warriors had to lose Imp Def or Shield Slam in order to gain something like IFF would you ask your tanks to do so? Or would you just bring another feral and not lose your sanity over the issue?
Another thing to note is that IFF is a 3 pointer.
You don't have to put in all 3 points. That can be a good thing or a bad thing.
Here's the thing you're not considering: The talent to drop isn't threat reduction, damage, or mana regen: It's Balance of Power. Get to 16% spell hit with gear alone and move a talent point out of 5/5 threat reduction.
Here's the thing you're not considering: The talent to drop isn't threat reduction, damage, or mana regen: It's Balance of Power. Get to 16% spell hit with gear alone and move a talent point out of 5/5 threat reduction.
The thing is, moonnkins become utterly useless without said trade-offs. You might as well bring another mage and forget IFF even existed. If warriors had to lose Imp Def or Shield Slam in order to gain something like IFF would you ask your tanks to do so? Or would you just bring another feral and not lose your sanity over the issue?
Another thing to note is that IFF is a 3 pointer.
You don't have to put in all 3 points. That can be a good thing or a bad thing.
I disagree. Moonkins become comparatively useless without Improved Faerie Fire and the moonkin aura. I don't see how 8%-12% threat reduction isn't enough for a moonkin druid when 10% is enough for an elemental shaman.
You're saying that if the moonkin doesn't spec for the extra threat reduction, mp5, or damage coefficient over IFF you might aswell bring another mage, when in all actuality the situation is reverse. Without IFF and the moonkin aura we are absolutely better off bringing another mage or warlock.
Also, your warrior comparison doesn't make sense. Here's a comparison that I think fits this situation; If arms warriors had to lose 2 points in Flurry in order to gain something like 2 points in Blood Frenzy would I ask my arms warrior to do so? Of course I would. Now obviously the arms warrior is going to benefit from their own Blood Frenzy, while the moonkin doesn't benefit from their own IFF, but in the end that really is meaningless.
My reasons to bring a moonkin druid, ranked in order of importance: Moonkin aura and IFF > Another combat rez > Another Innervate > Insect Swarm > The damage they deal.
Given you have 3 hunters that you want them grouped together for synergy. Would the best other two classes be to group with them for maximum DPS? Either a Shadow Priest, Resto shaman or Feral druid? Assume a 8 minute long boss fight.
All 3 hunters are currently BM, would we be better to have 1 survival hunter?
MT group:
Warlock
Tree Druid
Paladin
MT
OT (feral)
My hunters constantly tell me they prefer a feral over a shadowpriest, so in my case I have 3x BM hunter, Feral druid and Resto shaman, with that Shadow priest in G5. Potions are a good substitute for VT, but nothing matches LotP for 3 hunters + 3 pets.
Having said that, in fights where pets continuesly take some AoE damage, a shadowpriest is obviously preferred.
My reasons to bring a moonkin druid, ranked in order of importance: Moonkin aura and IFF > Another combat rez > Another Innervate > Insect Swarm > The damage they deal.
Insect Swarm is more important than another Innervate, imo, at least to a raid, since most Moonkin will use their Innervate on themselves
Aquan : Arkadu, I need an innervate, Sadris is tanking
Arkadu : Um . . . . pew pew?
08/09/07, 2:38 PM
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