Wowprogress.com seems to be up and running again.
Do you know of any other automatic trackingsites besides that one and wowjutsu.com?

There's warcrafter.net (US Guilds,EU Guilds)but I don't find it very accurate.

With the inception of Achievements being brought into the game I'm curious whether sites like these will or should (come wotlk) begin to rank progression based not only on first to kill the boss but also on first to complete the harder achievements associated with the bosses and how exactly would be a fair way to do this.

For example, currently in beta there is an achievement for clearing all of naxxramas without anyone dying during boss encounters. Such an achievement is much harder to gain then simply clearing the zone, as such should guilds who are able to complete this achievement be ranked higher than guilds who cannot? and if so just how much higher?

This has the potential to create a number of problems. How would one compare a guild clearing naxxramas 25man and completing all of the achievements (of which some are very difficult) to a guild who has cleared naxxramas and sartharian but not completed any achievements... At least from my current experience on beta, clearing naxxramas and completing all the achievements would rank 'harder' than just clearing naxx and sartharian without any of these achievements. (I know clearing it is in itself is an achievement I'm referring to the harder ones in general).

This point is raised for several reasons. It will continue to encourage end game raiders to be more competitive with each other even after reaching 'farm mode' it also encourages guilds to work on finely tuning their skill on the zones and to attempt the achievements that are in place.

Achievements at this point are planned to be available to view via the armory so it would require only an extension of the current crawler programs being used currently to track progression.

Interested to hear any ideas or thoughts on this issue

lintelotiel: Good question. I was planning to make an achievement-based rating where major achievements are boss-killing ones and those skill-based achievements would add some additional scores to the boss kills.

Note that the achievements make ranking process easier and much more accurate since you no more have to guess where player's items come from and whether it means a boss kill. Now guild members get an achievement granted with a kill date.

Blizzard going to make their own guild rankings. Quote from Worldofraids, Oct 10:
"To that end, there are ideas being tossed around related to Guild Ratings, where a guild receives a rating based on their PvE and PvP accomplishments."

This means there will be an official Guild Ratings Site with all the info.
I just hope that we will have separated PvE and PvP rankings and they won't make it too casual-oriented. Quest-grinding rankings anyone?
I think in future WowProgress.com will have some complementary features and it will be more community-oriented.

There's guildprogress.com : World of Warcraft, but their crawler seems to be pretty slow, and our guild is forced to queue updates every night. They also don't provide guild badges, which is a nice touch on other sites.

The problem with these automated sites is they don't filter guild kills from pug kills, so the ratings are somewhat inaccurate. Bosskillers is still the only officially maintained one that I'm aware of, but their interface kinda sucks.

Wowjutsu.com is back up and running.

First wave of 'kills' is just a result of who conquered the 'leveling boss' fastest. For this first wave they should be ranking based on hardest achievements to lesser ones. Everyone generally accepts what the 'harder ones' are, so it wouldnt be hard to do this.

10-man and 25-man. Personally I think they should be tracked as two separate lists/sections.

Achievements. A simple system would be to delegate achievements into one of two categories: "boss", or "points". An achievement such as Sarth with 3 drakes would be a boss. It would be used for rankings just like KT, Malygos, and other bosses would be (but obviously worth a lot more). Then the achievements such as Immortal, Shocking, etc could be points based. Some worth more than others, and each guild could have a total amount of points from raiding achievements.

How these points could be used depends on the current boss killing ranking system. It looks like it just assigns a certain value to each boss kill depending on when it was killed. So these points could be thrown onto that total, or perhaps only used to distinguish between two guilds who are of similar boss-killing rank.

Wowprogress.com includes heroic Sartharion with 3 drakes up into the rating.
There are also all the raiding guild achievements you can see by Realm or by EU/US/World with dates as ranked list.

Example: Heroic: The Twilight Zone :: WoWProgress - World of Warcraft Rankings and History

I agree the achievements should be added into the ranking system, otherwise guilds that have been working on them at the expense of regular farming will be penalized in the score. Also, it makes total sense to award points to the completion of the events in harder ways.

Maybe it's just me but wouldn't it be much simpler to just parse achievements rather than the gear on characters? For example when a guild kills a boss, you can expect ~20 players to have the achievement for the kill on the same day. Wowjutsu for example is still parsing by gear and giving credits for boss kill orders that does not make any sense.

my developer hat 2c

Not to mention that the fact that many Naxx drops are on multiple bosses' loot tables seems to be causing Wowjutsu real confusion (my guild is halfway through Naxx-25 and our credit is totally messed up by this fact).

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about... WoWJutsu isn't using loot to credit boss kills, though it is still tracking loot. It's awarding credit via the kill achievements.

Are you sure wowjutsu is tracking via achievements? Most in my guild has killed Sapphiron 10, but wowjutsu is crediting us with 14/15 in Naxx 10. (Kel'thuzad + 4 wings). My armory profile is definitely showing a Sapphiron 10 achievement as well.

Only explanation to this omission is that none on in my guild is wearing Naxx 10 loot from Sapphiron. (And I think this isn't uncommon in guilds which mainly do 25man).

wowjutsu may be using the acheivements, rather than the loot, but this is not reflexed in their FAQ, found here: http://www.wowjutsu.com/faq.html

It's possible that this just old out of date text, and it is tracking via achievements. Which frankly, given that you can buy T7 gloves and chest pieces, makes a lot of sense. Somebody who scares up 60 badges for a gloves shouldn't necessarily be given credit for Sartharion kill.

Update: Oops, I should have just looked more. Found this: http://www.wowjutsu.com/notes.html

New scans seem to be picking up achievements and more accurate kills as of the last day or two. Older scans before the update the other day still have some odd results. When I re-scanned the guild last night it picked up all the achievements, but it did not do that 3-4 days ago when the site was down but still taking scan requests.

My main concern is really the ordering at this point, and having a desire for them to come up with a better boss/point-based scale if they are going to try to integrate 10 and 25 man stuff into the same list. Even if 25-man kills of the same boss are weighted higher (say 15 points vs. 10 points or something) that would be a vast improvement on a single 25-man kill ending up ranking a guild above another which has cleared all 10-man content, or a single end-wing kill ranking ahead of a guild with a lot more non-end wing kills--especially the case if, for instance, a guild had killed Patchwerk and many other bosses but not killed an end wing boss would be ranked below a guild that had only cleared the 3 spider wing bosses.

It's interesting because the points still seem to show on the tooltip...if you ordered by points, the #2 is way ahead of the #1 guild ranked (50 vs. 35 points), and our guild (which is #10) has the 0.02 points less than the #1 guild, and would be #3 overall on points. We have 2-2.5 times as many points as the 6 guilds listed directly above. So, with that large of a difference I'm not sure a super-strict "boss order" sorting makes for logical presentation. Although it did make sense when there was a high level of competition on the Sunwell gateway/benchmark bosses, I feel like the old system was better for generalized ranking.

As Blizzard has said that all future content will have parallel 10 and 25 man versions, I would suggest having a point scale for the bosses in either zone which is rated based on their accepted difficulty. If a guild has two checked off, they would get credit for the larger of the two, whichever that may be. For instance, if they had cleared all of Naxx-10 and half of Naxx-25, they would get credit for the points of the bosses they had not killed in Naxx-25 at the Naxx-10 points, and the highest of the two on the bosses they had killed in both. This would allow for flexible rating in the case of certain bosses being considered as hard or harder on a 10-man version (Sarth-10 with 3 drakes comes to mind), or the opposite where the 25-man version is obviously more difficult than the 10-man version (KT, for instance, given the added MC dynamic.)

It made sense to move away from integrating the 10-man points back when ZA was skewing the rankings of T6 content, but now that the content is starting fresh with a parallel methodology it seems as if it would be much easier to integrate the two into a singular ranking system--even if the 10-man versions were to be ranked quite a bit lower in some cases. At least as the bosses/boss count matches, you are looking at apples and apples unlike before when trying to rationalize the addition of ZA vs. raid content was a lot more subjective.

Just as with 2-, 3-, and 5-man Arena ratings, 10-man and 25-man pve rankings should be completely separate.

What I'm wondering is if they will reset WoW Guild Rankings :: WoWProgress - World of Warcraft Rankings and History some how with Ulduar and subsequent dungeons. There's going to probably be only one achievement to base rankings on. Are they going to add to the new points for the rankings from Ulduar to the existing rankings or start over fresh? This first little block of raiding is not exactly reflective of the quality of guild. Some guilds couldn't be bothered with achievements or vanity mounts and probably wouldn't put in the effort of Sarth 3D. Many other guilds might have been set back a day by leveling etc. Only when Ulduar comes out with the playing field be even (which is evident by how easy the content is now). Almost everyone will have the same gear at that point.

So my guild kills Sartharion 3D now and it puts us at 16.43 points. Another guild killed him last week and is over 17 points. When Ulduar comes out is it an uphill battle for us to move up ranks? I liked the fact that in TBC my guild was able to move from rank 150 US to rank 50 US when BT came out because we worked hard for it. I alwlays felt like wowjutsu, though imperfect, was about as good as it gets. I know the jutsu/wowprogress guys post on here. How will you account for the fact that Ulduar will likely have one achievement to base rankings on? Will it be a clean slate or will the fact that Guild A decided to work on a gimmicky achievement a day sooner be affecting rankings all the way to icecrown?

This the major problem with wow progress and in my mind invalidates their whole process. We have the 75th Sarth 3D, but because we had slow leveling, our original sarth is in the 200's and we're ranked 85th. I would think the 3D is >>> than just Sarth. Interestingly enough, the 75th guild is 91st to get 3D.

I just wish WoWjutsu would update correctly. It has all the dates wrong for like 3-4 guilds on my server including mine. Just kind of dumb how it isnt updating based on the date achievements were received like one would think it would with how easy it is to find on the armory.

First, unlike other sites, WoWProgress does rank guilds by every encounter and every achievement, the site has separate lists for each achievement. If you are first at boss A people will see it, if you are 200 on boss B people also will see it.
Second, the encounters are now easy and don't grant much points. Harder bosses will grant more points so being 1 day ahead on a hard boss will be like being 1 week ahead on an easy boss.


You'd better show the dates instead of the position (because WoWProgress uses kill dates to define score), the positions are so different because the encounters are easy and many guilds completed them in the same day. The 75th guild defeated Sarth 3D on next day after your kill while they were several days ahead on the other bosses.

WoWProgress gives you much more info and smart people will see it. If you want to show your Wowjutsu rank (which even does not count Sarth 3D), well go ahead.

Wowjutsu doesn't seem to be updating the realm standing properly

We have Cleared everything apart from Malygos 25man which gives us about 35.17 points, yet we are listed for the last 2 weeks as realm 11th under guilds with 20points who have not cleared as much as we have.