I'd say that, at the moment, there is nothing that fills the UBRS, AQ20, or MC slots really. Karazhan's difficulty level is really no greater than ZG was back in the day, and certainly not comparable to MC. (Prince is annoying, but he's not Ragnaros.)
At this point, I'd rather see them add something more MC-ish (in difficulty, of course!) rather than UBRS... Karazhan is really easy enough for almost any semi-experienced group of friends to at least start running. Heroics facilitate the gear growth needed to work up to later parts of Karazhan for most folks.
I still feel that the biggest gap in progression is the fact that Karazhan doesn't even come close to being SSC level in difficulty. There's still an extremely wide margin between a guild able to do Karazhan and one being able to do Hydross.
A stop-gap 10-man might help the situation quite a bit. (Although a 25-man would probably be better, but that's just my personal opinion.) Should be a nice move though, so looking forward to it.
When you say 5 man content do you just mean from the normal level 70 instances or are you including heroics as well?
If you aren't including heroics then there's the stepping stone between the two levels of content and if you were including heroics then I just don't see how you can call it a big jump to karazhan.
Is the beginning of Kara really that hard? On your first trip or 2 in it's really more of an issue of group make-up when you don't out-gear it. Attumen isn't hard - Tank and spank, one RSTS charge in phase 2 that won't one shot anyone. Moroes is easy with 2 shackes and a trap. Maiden is easy with a pally (small horde guilds may not have one I guess). R&J isn't hard if you have the interrupts. BBW is cake (I think the first time I did BBW I was the only one who didn't die while being chased and we still killed him with 5 or 6 up at the end). Oz is easy with the proper group if you can delegate each person a job and keep new people from freaking out. Curator isn't too bad if you can get some resist gear on an OT and hash out a working strategy for the adds.
So yeah, it's a jump, but not too bad if you can sub a person or 2 in or out for particular encounters.
At the moment there's nothing that fills that UBRS slot. There are heroics, granted, but that's 5 man. There's no "easy" 10 man raid in TBC, and I really miss that. UBRS could be tackled with a few pre-60s. I doubt you could do that with Karazhan, and certainly not in Heroics.
Karazhan can't be done until 70 due to the flying mount requirement for getting the Arcatraz key. I don't say this just to be a nitpicker, but rather that it seems to suggest there was conscious intent not to make available an instance to fill the UBRS slot as in pre-TBC. For whatever Zul'Aman may bring, should it come with changes to this motif, it will probably only result in outcry from both sides of the argument.
I've been following a lot of the reactions on the WoW forums as well as the fansite forums to our announcement of Zul'Aman. I've noticed that there's a little bit of confusion as to some comments that were made in various articles that said that (I am paraphrasing here) "Zul'Aman will be more casual than Karazhan."'
Of course, what most of us in the WoW community have come to realize over the past few years is that the term "casual" means different things to different people. In fact, I am at the point where I try to avoid using the term at all. I've come to discover that most players consider themselves "Casual" when it supports their argument and likewise, they think of themselves as "hardcore" when convenient. We have the largest Casual Hardcore (or Hardcore Casual) community of any MMO out there!
All joking aside, the clarification is this:
--Zul'Aman will be a 10-person raid zone
--Zul'Aman will be on a quicker reset than 7 days (some might call this "casual") --Zul'Aman will be MORE difficult than Karazhan and drop better loot (some might call this hardcore)(Emphasis mine)
--Zul'Aman will feature 6 bosses and it's our goal that you can kill them all in one night -- perhaps 2-3 hour clear times (some might call this casual)
--Zul'Aman will not have a key requirement. Nor will it have an attunement quest (some might call this casual)
--Zul'Aman will have a VERY challenging timed quest for those who choose to participate in it. This *will be* hardcore and will be very rewarding. Players do not have to engage in the timed run (very similar to the Baron run in Stratholme)
--We're tuning the first boss in Zul'Aman to require less raid coordination than some other raid bosses. He will still hit very hard so you'll need to be geared properly but it won't take 15 minutes to explain the fight. It will be a simple yet challenging fight. The other boss fights get more complex and challenging from there. If players want a basis of comparison, imagine ithe tuning of ZA started around Nightbane/Prince difficulty and ramped up from there.
ZA is a very cool looking zone. It will feature brand new troll models -- Forest Trolls. They are very impressive looking. There will also be a large amount of brand new item art in the zone. We'll get screenshots of this out soon.
I know this question is going to come up so I'll answer it now -- Yes, you can totally skip Karazhan if you're an amazingly elite guild who doesn't have time to key up for KZ yet can face the challenges of ZA without gearing up in KZ. Have fun storming the castle.
That post makes it fill the niche of "more content" for those who want it (10-15 man guilds that really need more content), stuff to go back to (challenging possibly) for people who have finished everything or just raid every night while their guild only raids 4-5, and stuff to get more gear on the way to the 25 mans and progress "learning" of encounters a bit more for those in the void between 10 and 25 man stuff.
Well in that case this zone can't come soon enough to start filling in the holes in gear between KZ and SSC/TK for some specs.
The great thing is that they're doing exactly what people on this board have asked before - that "easy" zones also have a hard mode to them.
Yes! I think it would behoove Blizzard to do even more of this. Just from an efficiency standpoint, you can get double the value (or even more... I'd bet heroic mech is run much more often than regular) just from adding multiple modes. Shattered Halls actually has *three* levels of difficulty.
They could add:
Toggle-able player-based dps/healing/ability nullifications... think Kael'thas-style weapons to pick up and use, with the caveat that if you *don't* use them, you get better loot;
Differing positions to kill a mob... imagine if the hallway strat on Prince were sanctioned, but you just wouldn't get an epic weapon from his corpse. Lurker is a fight that could be tuned for two sets of loot;
NPC assistance options, these fights have been in the game forever (Vael versus Rend sticks out), and the assistance could take many forms;
The options are myriad. In fact, speed runs are ultimately one of the *least* elegant ways to implement a "hard mode" -- they can exert perverse pressure to raid stack. The upside though is that they change they add a very exciting pressure to the entire dungeon, from the first trash mob to the last round of buffing before the last pull.
Well, he's right about the useless "casual" labeling. Seating the difficulty around Prince/Nightbane pretty firmly entrenches ZA's place in the raiding chart, and I think it's a good one. It looks like the instance is designed to be an extremely quick clear once on relative farm status, and really should have stuff to offer to everyone. Looking good.
This can't come out soon enough. Currently for my alt, and for friends of mine in other guilds, the only real options on our sever are Kara, Mag, and Gruul (and that's only 1.5 nites of play once you get 'em down).
One of the previews mentioned, though, that ZA will have less gear than Kara. I'm curious if they'll be able to fit in gear for the off-specs that Kara lacked, while still retaining enough other choices for the traditional raid specs.
I hope they find a novel way to add offset items without "polluting" the loot table, especially in a 10-man. The token system is just so good to add multiple options of redemption, but you don't want to make every drop so generic that there is no fun in hoping for a rare drop.
AQ40 helped fill a huge itemization void that existed for feral druids by providing tons of great feral items. Only problem is ... it provided tons of feral items and lots of people complained. Something like an "offspec token" that was not class-specific, but instead had a number of offspec-only rewards for multiple classes would be very nice, and could ensure that your one off-spec guy in a 10-man raid could get some good drops without making every boss's two drops be moonkin + ret gear every week.
Well, Tigole's clarification is well-timed. As I said earlier, I have a hard time envisioning how they're going to itemize a post-Kara 10-man... I guess bosses will just drop an item less than Tier 5 instances, as Kara does compared to the Tier 4 25-mans? Or several items less, because of the shorter reset timer? There are going to be some odd loot parity issues here, since there's no ilvl room for a "Tier 4.5" and it's likely that a ZA-farming guild would gear up its players far quicker than a TK/SSC-farming guild.
But I guess it's a shame that this instance will not really be casual-friendly. We need a UBRS, and instead we're giving an AQ20 when we already have a ZG (Kara.)
Though honestly, I think the comparison between ZG and Kara falls flat. ZG's shorter timer made it more casual-friendly. The fact that ZG was an open instance where you didn't have to clear for a night or two just to make progress attempts made it more casual-friendly. The Bat/Snake bosses - the ones which true PuGs could generally take - were easier than Moroes and Maiden (imo.) Kara is a poor replacement for ZG and it sure as hell doesn't replace UBRS... but now we're given a Tier 5 equivalent 10-man for those few guilds which are farming Kara but can't scrounge together people for Malgaur? Seems like that's a much smaller constituency.
[Edit]
Though I shouldn't understate the possibility that ZA may turn out to be a fucking cool instance for any raiding guild which can progress through it. But I don't think "the other Tier 5 instances suck" is sufficient reason to create a new one..
I still feel that the biggest gap in progression is the fact that Karazhan doesn't even come close to being SSC level in difficulty. There's still an extremely wide margin between a guild able to do Karazhan and one being able to do Hydross.
Kara really doesn't compare to SSC/TK, I agree. But this statement is flawed. Mag is arguably as hard as (harder than) Hydross and/or Lurker, and is certainly harder (via my experience anyway) than Void Reaver. Gruul is much easier than Mag (and SSC/TK) but is a decent learning experience for those taking the leap from Kara to SSC/TK.
Progression is actually pretty good in TBC in terms of creating a linear path for those patient enough to follow it. ZA will be great for those guilds who are sick of farming Kara due to lack of numbers for running 25 mans. Something else that may get overlooked in the "should this be UBRS 2.0" debate, is that ZA with its "better than Kara loot" is going to add another gear bump to people struggling with Hydross/Lurker/VR/etc. The positioning, lack of requirements for entry, quicker reset and quicker run times are only going to help world wide progression as a whole. Much much more in fact than it would as a new UBRS.
given a Tier 5 equivalent 10-man for those few guilds which are farming Kara but can't scrounge together people for Malgaur? Seems like that's a much smaller constituency.
Look at the Wowjutsu percentages for guilds that run Kara versus guilds that kill Maulgar/Gruul (let alone the ones that kill Mag). Even off the roughest of rankings that's a 40%+ share of guilds that kill/killed Attumen that don't down anything in Gruul's lair. Hardly a niche market I'd say.
Well, Tigole's clarification is well-timed. As I said earlier, I have a hard time envisioning how they're going to itemize a post-Kara 10-man... I guess bosses will just drop an item less than Tier 5 instances, as Kara does compared to the Tier 4 25-mans? Or several items less, because of the shorter reset timer? There are going to be some odd loot parity issues here, since there's no ilvl room for a "Tier 4.5"
There's a tiny bit of room. Most bosses in Kara drop ilvl 115 loot with the exception of Prince, who drops 125. SSC/TK starts with 128 on everything but Kael/Vashj, who get 138. Theoretically you could have ZA drop ilvl 120-125 loot for the early bosses and 130-135 for Zul'jin or the timed event. There's also some room that can be gained by "optimizing" items, like we saw with Naxx items where suddenly part of the armor item budget wasn't being pissed away on Nature Resistance.
I'm a little disappointed it's not a "UBRS"-like difficulty raid instance. At the moment you very quickly run out of things to do if you don't do guild raids. 5 man and heroic drops are such tiny upgrades to crafted and quest rewards you get as a fresh level 70, and those tiny upgrades are single items with low drop rates.
At level 70 there is NO raid content accessible to people who don't do the whole guild raid thing. You can't just kludge a 10 man raid together as a PuG like you used to be able to do back in the level 60 days. I really, really miss that. I have no idea why they decided against 10 man PuG raid instances.
But I guess it's a shame that this instance will not really be casual-friendly. We need a UBRS, and instead we're giving an AQ20 when we already have a ZG (Kara.)
How in the heck can you even make a statement like that after a post from the devs that states the instance will play to both "hardcore" and "casual" players and that at the same time the very words hardcore/casual are silly, overused, and most often used in a self serving manner?
Don't forget that there is *plenty* of room for ilvl 130+ blues - much like how ZG had blues that were comparable to Tier 1, ZA could have blues comparable to T4. Not better, but not a terrible fill-in either. 2-3 of these, plus 1 epic off each boss (ala ZG) would make for a rewarding instance. Lets not forget to include Epic Meta Gems, quest/factionable Cloak/OH/Shield Enchants.
Don't forget that there is *plenty* of room for ilvl 130+ blues - much like how ZG had blues that were comparable to Tier 1, ZA could have blues comparable to T4. Not better, but not a terrible fill-in either. 2-3 of these, plus 1 epic off each boss (ala ZG) would make for a rewarding instance. Lets not forget to include Epic Meta Gems, quest/factionable Cloak/OH/Shield Enchants.
I think all the enhancement shaman would be in tears of joy if there was an OH in there :P
I'm a little disappointed it's not a "UBRS"-like difficulty raid instance. At the moment you very quickly run out of things to do if you don't do guild raids. 5 man and heroic drops are such tiny upgrades to crafted and quest rewards you get as a fresh level 70, and those tiny upgrades are single items with low drop rates.
At level 70 there is NO raid content accessible to people who don't do the whole guild raid thing. You can't just kludge a 10 man raid together as a PuG like you used to be able to do back in the level 60 days. I really, really miss that. I have no idea why they decided against 10 man PuG raid instances.
But the UBRS loot wasn't even the best loot you could get at level 60. The Dire Maul itemization was much better. Also, when MC was released it most certainly wasn't a PuG raid instance, and was someone above stated, ZG wasn't casual/PuG friendly at all in its first iteration. As time progresses and more of the raid game gets fleshed out (much like it is now with Zul'aman) there probably will be successful Karazhan PuGs.
What we all need to remember is that its still very early in the BC raid game compared to where we were with the "golden days" of AQ40/Naxx raids last year. What was commonplace then is out of the ordinary now. But it might not always be that way.
Originally Posted by Fellwraith
[Y]ou will tank 3 mobs, and only 3 mobs. 5 shalt thou not tank, nor shalt thou tank 4. Thou shalt not tank 2 mobs unless it is on the way to tanking 3 mobs.
Kara really doesn't compare to SSC/TK, I agree. But this statement is flawed. Mag is arguably as hard as (harder than) Hydross and/or Lurker, and is certainly harder (via my experience anyway) than Void Reaver. Gruul is much easier than Mag (and SSC/TK) but is a decent learning experience for those taking the leap from Kara to SSC/TK.
Progression is actually pretty good in TBC in terms of creating a linear path for those patient enough to follow it.
Well, I specifically did not mention Gruul/Mag because they are really "Onyxia" style encounters, and not full raiding zones. While a guild can cut their teeth on 25-man stuff in Gruul's Lair, it still isn't going to give much loot or much of a learning curve compared to a full raid instance.
It's all well and good to be able to hop around and kill VR/Gruul occasionally, but that doesn't make for a very coherant or focused raid scenario for a developing guild.
Either way, I'm pleased to hear Tigole's clarifications on the matter. For instance, I would have rather welcomed having ZA available right now. Our guild is on a summer raid break due to many vacations, so SSC is off for a few weeks--but Kara feels so trivial that nobody particularly wants to do it. Having something a bit harder to putter around in while bored after killing Gruul/VR quickly in the first raid night would be welcomed.
Look at the Wowjutsu percentages for guilds that run Kara versus guilds that kill Maulgar/Gruul (let alone the ones that kill Mag). Even off the roughest of rankings that's a 40%+ share of guilds that kill/killed Attumen that don't down anything in Gruul's lair. Hardly a niche market I'd say.
Given that ZA is stated to start at Nightbane difficulty, I don't find this comparison to be fair. I'm not sure how to check for myself, but what percentage of Nightbane-killing guilds haven't killed Maulgar? How many still fall into this category when you exclude guilds that have only killed Nightbane in the past month?
Originally Posted by Vykromond
There's a tiny bit of room. Most bosses in Kara drop ilvl 115 loot with the exception of Prince, who drops 125. SSC/TK starts with 128 on everything but Kael/Vashj, who get 138. Theoretically you could have ZA drop ilvl 120-125 loot for the early bosses and 130-135 for Zul'jin or the timed event. There's also some room that can be gained by "optimizing" items, like we saw with Naxx items where suddenly part of the armor item budget wasn't being pissed away on Nature Resistance.
Well, again... if ZA starts at Nightbane difficulty but drops ilvl <125 items... I guess that'd be somewhat counterintuitive, though not impossible. But we'll see. Same can be said for "optimized" loot. But then again, if optimized loot is better than T5 loot, the issue persists..
Originally Posted by Malan
How in the heck can you even make a statement like that after a post from the devs that states the instance will play to both "hardcore" and "casual" players and that at the same time the very words hardcore/casual are silly, overused, and most often used in a self serving manner?
Just because the term doesn't have a solid definition and is often used stupidly does not mean it can't be used to any gain. Clearly a post-Kara 10-man is more hardcore than a pre-Kara 10-man.
Originally Posted by Deris
Don't forget that there is *plenty* of room for ilvl 130+ blues - much like how ZG had blues that were comparable to Tier 1, ZA could have blues comparable to T4. Not better, but not a terrible fill-in either. 2-3 of these, plus 1 epic off each boss (ala ZG) would make for a rewarding instance. Lets not forget to include Epic Meta Gems, quest/factionable Cloak/OH/Shield Enchants.
I think for the most part, the only reason why ZG blues were comparable to Tier 1 purples was because a lot of Tier 1 purples had terrible itemization... that can't really be said for Tier 4...
And in any case, if it's an ilvl 125 purple or an ilvl 150 blue, it doesn't make that big a difference.
I think they should have had Kara and sister instances to drop tier 4 gear and complimentary items and then 2 or so 25 mans that scaled in difficulty in such a way as to required having farmed the ten mans first for a set period. They then they could concentrate more on adding new 25 man content exclusively instead of now having their cutting edge raiding community sort of hanging without any clear direction.
As awesome as Zul Aman might be, I can't imagine it being more then a fun distraction for progression guilds. Unless they plan on giving us ZA soon and another content patch a fairly short time after, it seems like there will be a pretty long stretch of farming for the top 1%.
But the UBRS loot wasn't even the best loot you could get at level 60. The Dire Maul itemization was much better.
You have basically toss most of the loot the game launched with out the window in these debates because very late in the beta cycle - and by "very late" I mean after nearly all the items had been designed - Blizzard completely reworked (gutted?) spirit. Which until that point had been the prime stat to have.
DM loot reflects what Blizzard had learned by watching palyers and it was designed with a better idea of what all the given stat's values really was.
You have basically toss most of the loot the game launched with out the window in these debates because very late in the beta cycle - and by "very late" I mean after nearly all the items had been designed - Blizzard completely reworked (gutted?) spirit. Which until that point had been the prime stat to have.
DM loot reflects what Blizzard had learned by watching palyers and it was designed with a better idea of what all the given stat's values really was.
What was the old function of Spirit, out of curiosity?
07/12/07, 12:55 PM
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