I saw the aq spell books to be more oriented towards scaling players up to meet with the standards with old PvE content. Introducing any spell at this point that has anything to do with healing or damage, specifically with so many various specs, would have a similar effect to that of throwing a rock in a glass house.
1 book per spec? For example moonfire, lifebloom and mangle.
That would certainly suck for the hybrids unless hybrid books drop more frequently than pure dps classes. You'd be running ZA for a long time to get all of your druids all 3. I guess as long as they aren't BoP you can AH them and make a little cash.
That would certainly suck for the hybrids unless hybrid books drop more frequently than pure dps classes. You'd be running ZA for a long time to get all of your druids all 3. I guess as long as they aren't BoP you can AH them and make a little cash.
I dont see the problem as AQ had 3 books per class as well.
Axid: It's been explicitly stated that the loot will be better than Karazhan, and that ZA will be tuned so that it starts at roughly Prince/Nightbane difficulty and ramps up from there.
Kara starts at ilvl 115 and ends at ilvl 125, with T4 clocking in at ilvl 120.
SSC starts at ilvl 128 and ends at ilvl 138, with T5 clocking in at ilvl 133.
So, there's a 10 ilvl difference between the start and end of a tier, and a 13 ilvl difference between tiers. There's no room between the tiers for ZA to fit in, so it'll have to overlap.
If I had to guess, I'd pick ZA loot to start at ilvl 123 and cap out at ilvl 133. If they have a set (T4.5, basically) it'll probably be ilvl 128. In other words, ZA loot would start out being a tiny bit worse than Prince/Gruul/Mag loot, the set would be as good as VR/Lurker loot, and the very best loot (probably gained from very hard timed encounter) would be as good as T5, with no ZA loot comparing to Vashj/Kael drops.
That sounds reasonable as a basis for itemization where epics are concerned and Blizzard stated earlier that they'd focus more on epics in TBC due to peoples' focus on colour, but the possibility of using the Zul'Gurub/AQ20 model for Zul'Aman loot remains an option.
Instead of having all loot being epic, the alternative of having the majority of the items be rare quality with a significantly higher item level (giving a different tradeoff of itemization points vs base armour/dps on the items) and with item budget optimizing stat allocations with a few epics thrown in as low-percentage drops and from the final boss - these epic drops being, quite likely, competitive with the best of T5 - but not enough different items that anybody could be kitted out in them entirely, 1-2 per armour type and a few weapons - the sort of things that make you go visit the place "just another time" even though you basically out-gear it, or makes you go "oooh!" when you do not out-gear it and get lucky.
Using that model most drops would be rares of iLvl 160-180 or so (a bit of handwaving here - could easily shift it 15 iLvls in either upper or lower bound depending on how well spent the item budget is and how sockets are used) with the few epics in the iLvl 130-140 range. One of the distinct advantages of going back to rares is that it requires a larger span of rare item levels to cover the same span in the item budget caused by, say, 10 epic item levels, allowing for more choices in what is otherwise a small span.
That said, I think you are likely right and it'll all be epics, if for no other reason than that some people seem to have an inherent dislike for replacing epics with rares and Blizzard seems to have taken heed of that in TBC, but the "few epics (but damn good ones) and many higher level rares" remains a fascinating possibility.
1 book per spec? For example moonfire, lifebloom and mangle.
There in lays a terrible gray area. Keep in mind the constraints that the spells learned must be trainer skills(no ms/earth shield/yata yata), and with that logic pertain to a spell tree.
Now try a paladin, say for holy they get a heal or a new wisdom(whatever), for ret they get an upgraded seal or blessing(likely might or that one seal that deals holy damage), then you get to prot in which case you'd end up with a new rank of BoP or devo or conc aura whatever.
Now switch over to something say a shaman.
Elemental they get a new shock or bolt, enhancement they get either stat or weapon totem(or lols lightning shield), then in resto they get a heal or a better mana totem.
Now take a second look at that and tell me who ends up getting the short end of the stick. The paladin gets various uses from all 3 new books as any spec, while the shaman gets at best 2. That's purely theoretical, but then you have to include the other classes and you get the picture.
Think about trying to keep balanced books that specify to each tree, while keeping it balanced in both PvP and PvE.... it won't happen.
If they add new books it would be nice if they were new ranks of the new skills that classes got between 61 and 70. Though that might be hard for some classes like warriors since most of our new abilities wouldn't scale with new ranks (intervene, victory rush, and spell reflect are all fairly static abilities). But I could definitely go for a new rank of commanding shout!
There in lays a terrible gray area. Keep in mind the constraints that the spells learned must be trainer skills(no ms/earth shield/yata yata), and with that logic pertain to a spell tree.
Now try a paladin, say for holy they get a heal or a new wisdom(whatever), for ret they get an upgraded seal or blessing(likely might or that one seal that deals holy damage), then you get to prot in which case you'd end up with a new rank of BoP or devo or conc aura whatever.
Now switch over to something say a shaman.
Elemental they get a new shock or bolt, enhancement they get either stat or weapon totem(or lols lightning shield), then in resto they get a heal or a better mana totem.
Now take a second look at that and tell me who ends up getting the short end of the stick. The paladin gets various uses from all 3 new books as any spec, while the shaman gets at best 2. That's purely theoretical, but then you have to include the other classes and you get the picture.
Think about trying to keep balanced books that specify to each tree, while keeping it balanced in both PvP and PvE.... it won't happen.
Eh, it isn't that hard - you beef up currently underwhelming skills. You could also give out some weird / unexpected ones - new rank of thorns, molten armor (increase the damage reflected), retribution aura, prayer of healing / binding heal, seal of light, volley, hurricane, conjure food/water (higher HP / mana totals at endgame), resistance auras/totems, enslave demon (increase the control time or decrease the penalty), stoneclaw totem, additional ranks on warlock demon pet abilities, and so on...
Any of those abilities could get new ranks without any effect on PVP; there are plenty of other abilities that they could give new ranks to though - overall, there are many ways they could do it without damaging the balance of the game. And it isn't as though they aren't willing to introduce items that have an effect on PVP through PVE.
Further, they totally have screwed up on the current PVE/PVP weapons for casters - the PVP ones are given strong PVE stats (lots of hit/damage) and the PVE ones are given PVP stats (crit/stamina) - yes, crit is falling out of favor for PVP, but still, Kael's Staff is ilvl 138 and the PVP season two staff is ilvl 136, but they gave the PVP one hit/crit/damage and resilience and the kael one 73 stamina or whatever and only damage/crit (no hit). They itemized the PVP one for PVE and the PVE one for PVP - they'll fix it eventually perhaps, but who knows. Anything like that illustrates an example where they pretty clearly don't mind if a PVE item has an effect on PVP and vice versa.
I'll continue to be hopeful for new ranks of skillbooks from the place - I like having continual character advancement.
I'll continue to be hopeful for new ranks of skillbooks from the place - I like having continual character advancement.
I don't think there's anyone who would prefer their character just stagnate and never progress. Rather, what people seem to be saying, and not unreasonably, is that new spell books aren't the best answer. There's boatloads of ways they could add some interesting character progression without the mandatory content spellbooks would represent. Hopefully we'll get more info and have something to talk about other than the pros and cons of spellbooks.
"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali
Well, I've made a post on it on Raids and Discussions fishing for a response - highly unlikely, but hey, sometimes (rarely) people get a response. Personally, I still object to the comment of "mandatory" being pegged to it - clearly the current game can be cleared with everything that is in it. It wouldn't be mandatory - just an extra boost. Yes, you'd be foolish not to take it, but people have already shown that you don't need it to clear the game.
Deliverance: Actually, that's a good point. I was just assuming they'd apply the Kara loot model, but with half the drops to account for the shorter reset timer (so, 1 per boss, and maybe 2 from the end boss).
However, they could also apply the heroic loot model: Guaranteed epic(s) from the final boss, good blues from the earlier bosses, and a chance at some sort of "special" loot from every boss. "Special" loot could be, hmm...epic gems, skill books, set tokens, BoP recipes, special currency for faction vendors, Nether Vortices, Primal Nethers, or anything really. I'd quite like epic gems...
What I really hope they don't do is have bosses which mostly drop blues, but have a couple of very good epics in their table. Bosses with an extremely valuable but extremely rare drop is an awful idea - it didn't work in ZG and AQ20, it didn't work with Thunderfury, and it didn't work in heroics (which is why they recently changed it). (It does work for "vanity" items like special mounts, however.)
Anyhow, that's getting very far afield. I agree that there's a lot of scope for useful itemization if they use blues - if they do it right. We'll see...
Deliverance: Actually, that's a good point. I was just assuming they'd apply the Kara loot model, but with half the drops to account for the shorter reset timer (so, 1 per boss, and maybe 2 from the end boss).
However, they could also apply the heroic loot model: Guaranteed epic(s) from the final boss, good blues from the earlier bosses, and a chance at some sort of "special" loot from every boss. "Special" loot could be, hmm...epic gems, skill books, set tokens, BoP recipes, special currency for faction vendors, Nether Vortices, Primal Nethers, or anything really. I'd quite like epic gems...
What I really hope they don't do is have bosses which mostly drop blues, but have a couple of very good epics in their table. Bosses with an extremely valuable but extremely rare drop is an awful idea - it didn't work in ZG and AQ20, it didn't work with Thunderfury, and it didn't work in heroics (which is why they recently changed it). (It does work for "vanity" items like special mounts, however.)
Anyhow, that's getting very far afield. I agree that there's a lot of scope for useful itemization if they use blues - if they do it right. We'll see...
Fairly sure at this point having been previously mentioned that it is in fact a raid, has difficult bosses, and timed content that it will in fact be raid locked. If they used the kara loot model it would be 2 guaranteed epics per boss, up to even possibly 4 based around some sort of end boss 'head' sort of thing.
I don't see how trade-able spell books can make any content "mandatory". That's akin to saying that herbing (running the grind that is herbing's "content") is mandatory.... you can just buy herbs/alch consumables; you can just buy or trade spell books.
I can't imagine many reasonable people felt that the first few runs through ZG or AQ 20 were a grind: experiencing new, fairly well-designed encounters is enjoyable just for the experience, even if it is not particularly challenging.
On top of that, Kaplan's comments make it seem like the zone will be challenging to all but the very best geared in the world, since the optional timer can be used on the first night of the zone for Hyjal/BT guilds.
Last, if you really crave challenge for the sake of challenge, just un-equip a few pieces of gear!
To those of you that were able to blink into the zone: is it outdoor or indoor?
I can't imagine many reasonable people felt that the first few runs through ZG or AQ 20 were a grind: experiencing new, fairly well-designed encounters is enjoyable just for the experience, even if it is not particularly challenging.
The first couple times in no, they were a blast. Running Aq20 for the 700th time to get our Mt a rank of Heroic strike, a priest a renew , or me a Corruption wasn't just not fun, it reduced the level of fun had in every other aspect of the game.
I'm very much looking forward to ZA as a dynamic zone, where difficulty is adjusted by the raid involved in it. I just hope that doesn't include spellbooks we'll be farming until the next expac is released and we can just train them.
"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali
The first couple times in no, they were a blast. Running Aq20 for the 700th time to get our Mt a rank of Heroic strike, a priest a renew , or me a Corruption wasn't just not fun, it reduced the level of fun had in every other aspect of the game.
I'm very much looking forward to ZA as a dynamic zone, where difficulty is adjusted by the raid involved in it. I just hope that doesn't include spellbooks we'll be farming until the next expac is released and we can just train them.
I don't see why they couldn't implement the token system that has been so successful in the past.
Heroic Badges
Spirit Shards
BG Marks
Tier X Tokens
I've always preferred the path of gear guarenteed to earn in time, but not necessarily as fast as someone with fantastic luck on low drop rates. I agree that vanity items can stay on the old-fashioned low drop table.
Tokens could drop from ZA, each unique to each boss, and when you've killed all the main bosses, you can turn in a quest for a spellbook. Another quest would require you to kill the Jin'do v2.0, spellbook #2. Finish a expert timed escort quest, spellbook #3.
The same could be said for potential enchants, belt or otherwise
The spellbook drops in AQ caused me to quit the game. I didn't like raiding very much at the time and being forced to raid to try to keep up was ludicrous. Gear is one thing but not having a spell rank because you don't wish to raid is direct spit in one's eye.
I did return and got my spellbooks on my main but I was very unhappy about the whole process of forced repeated raids, or sitting at the back of the bus. Perhaps some epic could increase my toons damage as much as a new spell rank but psychologically it isn't the same thing.
The spellbook drops in AQ caused me to quit the game. I didn't like raiding very much at the time and being forced to raid to try to keep up was ludicrous. Gear is one thing but not having a spell rank because you don't wish to raid is direct spit in one's eye.
I did return and got my spellbooks on my main but I was very unhappy about the whole process of forced repeated raids, or sitting at the back of the bus. Perhaps some epic could increase my toons damage as much as a new spell rank but psychologically it isn't the same thing.
You know the spellbooks were BoE, right? If you didn't want to raid, or had bad luck with a drop, you could do what I did - farm up some gold and buy your book.
We made good money selling them. If they were tokenized BoEs (yeah, okay, nobody bought the Deadly Poison book after the first month or so), I'd have no problems with a spellbook system at all.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Fairly sure at this point having been previously mentioned that it is in fact a raid, has difficult bosses, and timed content that it will in fact be raid locked. If they used the kara loot model it would be 2 guaranteed epics per boss, up to even possibly 4 based around some sort of end boss 'head' sort of thing.
Um, check out page 4. ZA will have a shorter reset timer than Kara, will be harder than Kara, and have better loot than Kara. Logically, if ZA resets roughly twice as fast as Kara, we'd expect it to drop roughly half as much loot as Kara. Hence, 1 epic per boss. (Of course, logic is a great way to make mistakes with confidence...)
Speaking of which, I'd be interested in what the timer will be. 3 days like ZG? 5 like Onyxia? 4 days just to be different?
Um, check out page 4. ZA will have a shorter reset timer than Kara, will be harder than Kara, and have better loot than Kara. Logically, if ZA resets roughly twice as fast as Kara, we'd expect it to drop roughly half as much loot as Kara. Hence, 1 epic per boss. (Of course, logic is a great way to make mistakes with confidence...)
Speaking of which, I'd be interested in what the timer will be. 3 days like ZG? 5 like Onyxia? 4 days just to be different?
Possibly resets on Tuesday and Friday (or Tues/Sat)? There's no real reason that Blizzard couldn't implement a twice-a-week reset for it, and there are some advantages to that (consistent instance timer resets, basically).
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
3 days reset like at zg/aq20 in vanilla looks more realistic to me. So, changing reset days every week, leaving you maybe with a couple of problems with your raiding schedule.
We cleared those instances (zg/aq20) once a week on our nonraid evening in a 6 day schedule, second clear on one or two afternoons (for one of that two instances). But nowadays, i guess it will be much harder for us!
A lot of people finished school since vanilla was released and started working, coming home around 6 pm, just to login, finish one or two daily quests until mommy calls for dinner and start raiding soon.
That might bring us into some serious problems with having not that much pupils left nowadays. Of course, it might look different in other guilds, but my mates grow up with this game to adult state. Do you all startet with 15-?
The blue post stated, it might take an average guild 3 hours to clear the hole instance, but i guess that's not with 8 out of 10 green/blue toon geared people and there might only be one or two interesting drops for a t5+ player.
That's only 10 minutes of boss + loot, 15-25 minutes of trash per boss, assuming no wipe.
I think it's a great idea, having a second smaller instance with high level gear to equip your new main or loved toon further more, because there are certain slots karazhan won't take off. But i've no clue how we can handle all off this content. We are no perfect executing guild and need some nights (3-5) on our t5 content and hoping to see t6 content soon, well time will tell.
Who's to say that "more casual" necessarily means easier? The impression I got was that it was intended to be completed more quickly.
Remember! When WE say something is casual we mean it is capable of completion but unskilled and undedicated players. When Blizzard says this they often mean that it requires less time commitment.
3 days reset like at zg/aq20 in vanilla looks more realistic to me. So, changing reset days every week, leaving you maybe with a couple of problems with your raiding schedule.
We cleared those instances (zg/aq20) once a week on our nonraid evening in a 6 day schedule, second clear on one or two afternoons (for one of that two instances). But nowadays, i guess it will be much harder for us!
A lot of people finished school since vanilla was released and started working, coming home around 6 pm, just to login, finish one or two daily quests until mommy calls for dinner and start raiding soon.
That might bring us into some serious problems with having not that much pupils left nowadays. Of course, it might look different in other guilds, but my mates grow up with this game to adult state. Do you all startet with 15-?
The blue post stated, it might take an average guild 3 hours to clear the hole instance, but i guess that's not with 8 out of 10 green/blue toon geared people and there might only be one or two interesting drops for a t5+ player.
That's only 10 minutes of boss + loot, 15-25 minutes of trash per boss, assuming no wipe.
I think it's a great idea, having a second smaller instance with high level gear to equip your new main or loved toon further more, because there are certain slots karazhan won't take off. But i've no clue how we can handle all off this content. We are no perfect executing guild and need some nights (3-5) on our t5 content and hoping to see t6 content soon, well time will tell.
The way I was thinking, it'd go something like this. A new guild starts by clearing Karazhan...honestly, why there are some who have killed High King Maulgar prior to the Prince, most guilds would be smart "clearing" Karazhan before moving to Gruul. Once Karazhan is on farm, you start dropping off optional bosses in the instance (reducing the clear time to 2.5-3 hrs), leaving two and a half days raiding, one doing Gruul, another (splitting the raid into two) to do Z'A with a Magtheridon (or second Z'A because it's short timer) thrown in on the 1/2 day..
Eventually as you have Gruul and Magtheridon on farm, you move to just SSC and TK with the occasional Z'A "Speed Run" thrown in for good measure, because if they make the reward for finishing it very quickly rewarding enough, it'll keep you coming back until BT (granted, that's a big assumption).
So honestly, I think there is just enough content for a guild that can field 25 raiders once Z'A is released. Any more and you'd be required to raid 4 or 5 nights a week (which is optional), but little enough that you can do three seperate instances a week in three days.
One method that hasn't been mentioned would be reputation books.
This would also go some way to solving the Hybrid problem without polluting loot tables with 9 shaman books or whatever.
You could have for example:
Honoured:
Starfire
Tranquility
Maul
Revered:
Moonfire
Regrowth
Shred
Exalted:
Wrath
Lifebloom
Frenzied Regen
There would probably be some complaints though if say rogues only got 3 books where hybrids got 6-9.
07/16/07, 10:29 AM
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