The issue is that it destroys a few combos that are used at the start of a fight that the class was balanced around.

Wait, this may be a dumb question, but could you explain to me how the class was balanced around a few combos and when you regenerate energy? If anything it seems like you're going to be better off because of this change due to some skills taking different amounts of energy and being able to use them sooner?

Way off topic.. sorry. Just curious as to how this actually works.

I'm sure someone will beat me to this, but you can game your opener to hit so you use up your 60 energy, but immediately get back 20 from a tick. So effectively you have a pool of 120 energy in the opening second of a fight, which makes certain combinations of abilities possible that wouldn't otherwise be.

The effect of this change is to make rogue/cat openers in pvp less powerful.

Think of it like this:

You regen 10 energy per second when not full
You regen 0 energy per second when full

Using the special ability changes your regen rate from 0 to 10/sec in the middle of the heartbeat, so when the heartbeat credits you with extra energy, it applies some of the time at 0/sec and the rest at 10/sec. This is a different facet of the same change.

I understand that much, but was the rogue class really balanced around this, is what I'm asking.

Long story short, the 'extra' energy gained by the tick placement allowed for more moves (certain sequences of moves) to be used without hitting the energy floor and having to wait for a tick.

In fact it was possible to use something around 160 energy all at once (within the limits of the GCD) without having to sit there and do nothing waiting for an energy tick.

Who can really say? Are the openers of these classes balanced now in PvP? This change makes them weaker.

At the end of the day does it really matter what the developers intend? The game is either balanced or it isn't, irrespective of what the developers intend. Draw your own conclusions. You're probably a pretty thoughtful person (since you post on this board!) and have your own ideas on the matter.

Doesn't the use of the energy timing in that way require a mod to time energy ticks? I doubt Blizzard dev's balance Rogues around particular ui's. Or is there a system to do it without a ui bar?

I can generally keep a mental timer of when my energy is going to tick next if I pay attention, EnergyWatch just makes it easier, just like any other mod makes your life easier.

Is that possible with a full energy bar? There is no visual indicator of regen on a full bar in the vanilla ui. I only ask because the previous posts referred to openers. I claim ignorance if there are dps cycles that this also hampers.

We're talking out of combat, before a fight starts. If you can keep track of it all the way through zoning in to an arena until you first use an opener and be accurate about it, I'd be impressed. It's not too bad once you start combat, but openers practically require a mod for it.

No it is possible:

T0-T2 (T referring to tick so T0 would be the tick in question (either timing immediately before or after this tick)

T0 - 00
T1 - 20
T2 - 20

average this over 6 seconds and you get 40 energy per 6 seconds, which is .15 seconds per point of energy making 20 energy cost 3 seconds rather than the 2 it's supposed to.

T0 - 20
T1 - 20
T2 - 20

average this over 6 seconds and you get 60 energy per 6 seconds which is .1 seconds per point of energy making 20 energy cost 2 seconds, which is the intended value.

You can pop distract to go below max energy and get a feel for the ticks from that. Unfortunately if you need to land your opener before that energy regens you kinda screwed yourself, but you wouldn't have to remember the tick timer for as long as you suggest. Regardless, energywatch makes it a million times easier and you can execute the opener down to small fractions of a second.

I don't think Drag was asking "Are the openers perfectly balanced within the context of the entire game?" but rather "Did the developers intend for rogues to use timer mods (or their innate Rain Man ability to keep track of ticks in their mind) and therefore essentially begin every fight with 120 energy?" The underlying question being, is this a nerf or is it simply a mechanism to ensure rogue openers act in the way the developers have always intended them to?

Of course, as you say, whether what the devs intend is balanced or not is a completely different story.

I'm inclined to think that the devs have always viewed tickmods as taking slight advantage of the mechanics of energy regen, and that this change addresses that.

Obviously it's a ton easier with a mod, but yeah, generally I have a pretty good mental timer going during normal play. I'm one of those weird musicians that can tap out 5vs8 time and stuff like that though, so I may be an exception rather than a rule

Forgive my ignorance, by why 6 seconds? Aren't ticks at 2 second intervals? That would be 4 seconds in each case assuming T0 is time 0 (which is the discussion at hand).

T0 is the first tick at 2 seconds, T1 is the second tick at 4 seconds, T2 is the third tick at 6 seconds.

The question is that if rogues should be entitled to the first tick going off or not.


We can either start the fight right before hand (negating the 2 second wait because it's the start of the fight) or right after it, and incurring the 2 second wait.

edit:
This is getting kind of off-topic, just wanted to make the change known.

The only other reputations I can think of are for Karazahn, Eye of the Storm, Hyjal, and Black Temple.

The flaw in your assumption here is that T0 is not occuring at 2.0s.

Assuming that T0 happens at 1.9s:

T0 (1.9s) - 00
T1 (2.0s) - 20
T2 (4.0s) - 20
T3 (6.0s) - 20

This is how it is currently. This rogue is getting 60 energy in 4.1s, as opposed to 60 energy in 6s.

The fix changes it such that:

T0 (1.9s) - 00
T1 (2.0s) - 01
T2 (4.0s) - 20
T3 (6.0s) - 20

This rogue gets 41 energy in 4.1s - the correct ratio of energy-to-time.

In answer to the questions about openers, etc. - yes, this only affects openers, and can only be accurately gauged with a latency-incorporating energy-watch addon (think EnergyWatch with Quartz functionality).

All this does is help to level the playing field between Rogues who simply play the game, and Rogues who use every addon/mod/dirty trick in the book to squeeze a few extra DPS or partial seconds of stunlock out of their class. Is that inherently wrong? No. Should it be a benefit afforded by circumventing a mechanic via the use of an addon? No.

Hmm

To make it fully equal to the mana regen equivalent, I would have thought that they should immediately get 10 energy and then 2 sec later have their normal regen ticks initiate. This .1 counting mechanism is more balanced from a time perspective, but it isn't exactly the mechanic used for mana.

Though, I wonder what happens if mana regen changes dramatically when at full mana? The same partial gain effect?

Technically it's happening exactly the same, except that the change prevents us from negating the first 2 seconds by not attacking.

They're both happening in the same amount of time. Just that the first 1.9 (2) seconds of the one where we get the 'extra' energy are occurring while we're out of combat and in stealth, which negates their downside, while in the other option we have to wait them out.

The new system effectively is an average of the two effects giving us what ever energy we had extra based on when we attacked when the next tick was.

Either way this makes a few combos impossible and will adversely effect pvp.

On another interesting note, this is NOT happening to druids in cat form.

It happens when they shift, but NOT when they use openers, which means they can still skim extra energy.

I can't see how this isn't a bug.

Mana regeneration is a different subject, though. You deal with two forms of regeneration - inside the 5s rule, and outside the 5s rule. Outside, both are actually functional at the same time.

Energy is a static 2s tick. Under normal circumstances, you should get 20 energy/tick back (I can see a lot of potential for ugly bugs here, depending on how it was coded). The only exception is when energy regeneration first kicks in - when you've been at 100 energy for 2s or more, your first tick after you use an ability will return (20 - x) where x is tenths of a second since the last static tick.