...
That's perfectly reasonable, sorry if I misinterpreted you - that's not what it sounded like when you first posted it though, two people both misunderstood you.
Maybe I was a bit unclear before but by saying that I don't judge I was mostly talking about keeping a 100% uptime on the judgments.
Originally Posted by Cromfel
Yes, I am suggesting nerfing Holy Paladin judging. As I have explained already 2 times, thats the goal what Blizzard tried to achieve. Only that they failed in it. Im confused with all the excuses thrown why Retribution spec shouldnt have any purpose or role in this game. One could think its childish jealousy, but I cant honestly say if thats the reason why many trash talk the tree. Its just 1 spec like others, it should have some purpose. I find it pretty funny that Priest dont understand it, when not too long time ago Shadowpriests were in same boat. Hated and mocked for being selfish spec... Look at them now. Is the communtiy complaining for them being useful?
While I'd love to see the retribution tree be a really nice viable raid spec, I don't want holy more nerfed. Nerfing judgments on holy doesn't really solve many issues, it will directly effect my grinding ability at the same time not to mention other aspects.
Instead I'd love to see talents put in the retribution tree that improve the judgments scaling with AP or such. Making them even more viable.
Yes, I am suggesting nerfing Holy Paladin judging. As I have explained already 2 times, thats the goal what Blizzard tried to achieve. Only that they failed in it. Im confused with all the excuses thrown why Retribution spec shouldnt have any purpose or role in this game. One could think its childish jealousy, but I cant honestly say if thats the reason why many trash talk the tree. Its just 1 spec like others, it should have some purpose. I find it pretty funny that Priest dont understand it, when not too long time ago Shadowpriests were in same boat. Hated and mocked for being selfish spec... Look at them now. Is the communtiy complaining for them being useful?
Edit: And what a coincidence that you are personally Shadowpriest
No, but shadowpriests didn't 'take' anything away from holypriests to justify their niche, your suggestion requires to nerf an ability that holy paladins have always had and in order to obtain it again bringing a ret paladin.
I already gave my suggestion personally as to how make ret paladins extremly welcome in raids, without any raid leader complaining about losing a heal bot - make them a support class that actively heals the raid by doing melee, so someone can enjoy the game swinging a big 2h'er and the raid leader is happy that he didn't lose a healer in the process - if you turn them into another average melee dps class that requires windfury to perform I don't think you'll get anywhere.
While I'd love to see the retribution tree be a really nice viable raid spec, I don't want holy more nerfed. Nerfing judgments on holy doesn't really solve many issues, it will directly effect my grinding ability at the same time not to mention other aspects.
Instead I'd love to see talents put in the retribution tree that improve the judgments scaling with AP or such. Making them even more viable.
It was he who declared it as holy nerf, not me. In my eyes it has no effect in your grinding capability if judgement timer got reduced from 20sec to 15 sec. Did it effect when the timer was ~10sec? No. You are exagrating this so called "Nerf" we are talking about. Its merely just a tuning in process of making Retribution more viable.
If I were to redesign judgement system a bit, it would look something like this...
Current judgement system is close to state of irrelevant when it comes to majority of content and gameplay. Many of them dont really bring anything remarkable, or even noticeable difference in the combat. in raiding environment effect is noticeable, but have no reason for Retribution to be meleeing in order to gain judgement benefit. Best example of this would be 5man groups and solo playing. Its pretty obvious that the low support what they offer need some changes. For Soloing, in many cases it is just plain stupid to judge any of the seals instead of damaging ones due monsters dying in relatively short time (Judgement cooldown wasted and mana waste).
Retribution tree should have main role as Support DPS, and their responsability is to offer some form of support while meleeing. Something small to have reasonable support utilitys when comparing to other hybrids who can offer good raw dps and good support. Retribution Paladins should have unique support role what is very obvious and why the low damage they offer should be considered as sufficient because they bring the good support tools.
Currently theres nothing what defines Retri, non-Paladins only see Retribution bringing low damage and same utilitys as holy/prot can bring, and they are absolutely right. Blessings are same, Judgements are same, and this creates similiar situation where Shadowpriests were when community hated them for their selfish spec. Now shadowpriests are having fun for their money, they arent "selfish" anymore as they offer great manaregen additions and great offhealing while doing dps. This is something that we want to reproduce for retribution.
Changes
First of all, we are introducing new talent for Retribution. It will be called Lightbringer. This talent will be in very deep Retribution, to make this system provide some clear role and purpose for the Retribution tree to separate it from Prot/Holy. Taking this talent will allow Paladin to have 2 seals up and judgeable at any given time, only exception is that they can have 1 Avenger seal and 1 Guardian seal up at same time.
Lightbringer New Retribution Talent (Pre talent for Crusader Strike)
Paladin can now have 1 Guardian and 1 Avenger seal up at any give time and can judge either of them by using Guardian Judgement or Avenger Judgement. In addition to the normal effect, your Guardian judgements have party beneficial components available for Retribution Paladins party only.
Guardian Seals
- Seal of the Crusader
- Seal of Light
- Seal of Wisdom
- Seal of Justice
Avenger Seals
- Seal of Command
- Seal of Vengeance
- Seal of Blood
- Seal of Righteousness
Guardian Judgement Changes.
These changes are introduced to promote support nature of Paladin dps. These changes are only here to give small obvious group components to judgements so it would be seen as beneficial addition to any party to take Retribution Paladin in their group. We all know how playerbase think about Retribution Paladins, and they have right to do so. But we also know what happened to hate against shadowpriests.
*** Judgement of the Crusader ***
Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, increasing spell damage taken by up to 100.
In addition judging Paladin party can get 5% haste rating buff when Paladin attacks target (33% proc rate, 5sec duration).
*** Judgement of Light ***
Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, granting all attacks made against the judged enemy a chance of healing the attacker for 100.
In addition judging Paladin party will be healed for 20% of Paladins critical strike damage.
*** Judgement of Wisdom ***
Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, granting attacks and spells used against the judged enemy a chance to restore 100 mana, 1 rage and 1energy to the attacker. (Rage and Energy proc rate is 33%, mana proc rate is 50%).
In addition judging Paladin party can get 25mana/5sec buff when Paladin attacks the target (50% proc rate, duration 10sec).
*** Judgement of Justice ***
Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, preventing them from fleeing and limiting their movement speed.
In addition judging Paladin party attacks have change of dazing the target for 4 sec. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration.
Why?
Judgements offers mediocore support in raiding environment. But its impractical to force other Paladins from healing job to come aply new judgements when from time to time they will drop off. This would not create any imbalanced issues as the Judgement scaling in small scale gameplay is extremely thin, and in pvp combat duration is very short to even consider judging many 8 sec cooldowns to aply multiple seals. One could always claim that this would make Retribution overpowered, but lets face the facts. These changes would hardly make huge difference in pvp, only improvement would be that people actually see them gaining something from having Retribution Paladin. WOOT? Retri being useful? Sign me in! Judgement of light seems to be powerful, but think twice, its only fraction of the heal regeneration what Shadowpriests offer. Again, only producing small beneficial addition gained trough retribution spec.
It was he who declared it as holy nerf, not me. In my eyes it has no effect in your grinding capability if judgement timer got reduced from 20sec to 15 sec. Did it effect when the timer was ~10sec? No. You are exagrating this so called "Nerf" we are talking about. Its merely just a tuning in process of making Retribution more viable.
It really depend, since if you nerf it to 15 seconds people would still be able to use it in raids. They'd just have to refresh it more and make it even more annoying, but wouldn't really prevent it. But at the same time it will have effects on holy paladins in pvp for example.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but at the same time there are much more tweaks that can be made to make retribution judgments more viable instead of nerfing the base line.
It really depend, since if you nerf it to 15 seconds people would still be able to use it in raids. They'd just have to refresh it more and make it even more annoying, but wouldn't really prevent it. But at the same time it will have effects on holy paladins in pvp for example.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but at the same time there are much more tweaks that can be made to make retribution judgments more viable instead of nerfing the base line.
As I said, it hasnt always been 20 sec. Dont act like it have been
If I wanted to jump into same arguments, I would be whining about Holy Pala + Warrior synergy nerf that directly leaded into Retribution nerf trough BoF / BoSac 2.2 changes. That would be counterpart on your argument. But thats not something what I want to do, I accept it.
As I said, it hasnt always been 20 sec. Dont act like it have been
True it wasn't, and that's why it sucked even more back then. Nerfing it again will not help anything. On another note, I like the ideas presented above. I believe I read them on the official Paladin forums too.
If I wanted to jump into same arguments, I would be whining about Holy Pala + Warrior synergy nerf that directly leaded into Retribution nerf trough BoF / BoSac 2.2 changes. That would be counterpart on your argument. But thats not something what I want to do, I accept it.
Well I complained about it a lot, and still do. The nerf was in total disregard to the retribution Paladin. Don't get me wrong, I'm retribution specced at the moment. But I don't see it viable for raids yet, and hoping for improvements because that's how I'd like to raid.
As I said, it hasnt always been 20 sec. Dont act like it have been
If I wanted to jump into same arguments, I would be whining about Holy Pala + Warrior synergy nerf that directly leaded into Retribution nerf trough BoF / BoSac 2.2 changes. That would be counterpart on your argument. But thats not something what I want to do, I accept it.
Err, it used to be 40 seconds too if you want to play that game.
No, but shadowpriests didn't 'take' anything away from holypriests to justify their niche, your suggestion requires to nerf an ability that holy paladins have always had and in order to obtain it again bringing a ret paladin.
I already gave my suggestion personally as to how make ret paladins extremly welcome in raids, without any raid leader complaining about losing a heal bot - make them a support class that actively heals the raid by doing melee, so someone can enjoy the game swinging a big 2h'er and the raid leader is happy that he didn't lose a healer in the process - if you turn them into another average melee dps class that requires windfury to perform I don't think you'll get anywhere.
Are you honestly trying to say that Judgement system is essential part of Holy tree? And that guilds take Holy Paladins to raid because of their judgement abilitys. I dare to disagree. Thats just one new way of the "Retribution as working spec is violation against human rights". Retribution tree has all the judgement related talents. See above example of BoF / BoSac nerf that was nerf to holy tree but lead into huge nerf to Retribution also.
Well I complained about it a lot, and still do. The nerf was in total disregard to the retribution Paladin. Don't get me wrong, I'm retribution specced at the moment. But I don't see it viable for raids yet, and hoping for improvements because that's how I'd like to raid.
Im pretty sure that it was pre-work for the Retribution changes. As those tools could become problem if Retribution tree got stronger. So all I can do is wait and see what Blizzard has to offer for Retri changes.
Are you honestly trying to say that Judgement system is essential part of Holy tree?
Empowered judgemented used to be one of the deepest holy talents, and yes, judgements are defently part of the reason why paladins are taken to raids - not THE main reason, but one of the reasons.
Empowered judgemented used to be one of the deepest holy talents, and yes, judgements are defently part of the reason why paladins are taken to raids - not THE main reason, but one of the reasons.
Improved Judgement have already been discussed and it was 20 point talent (23 maxed).
Err, it used to be 40 seconds too if you want to play that game.
And then if you want to go all the way, judgements used to be 30 seconds and could not be refreshed.
Judgements were "meant" to be a benefit for paladin in melee. That you can get around it (have your paladins run in and out to judge but without swinging their weapons) is nice for current raids, but not so great for the paladins who want to be a melee class in raids.
Not that I'm a fan of nerfing judgement duration to increase Ret's relative desirability: Let off-specs stand on their own utility, rather than using heavy-handed changes to "force" raids to want them.
(Honestly, I think the distraction of running in/out to judge for healing paladins is already a decent reason to field a Ret paladin)
My old guild had significant issues with having any sort of judgement uptime - we ended up just giving up on it altogether, and I like to think it would have been quite the boost to raid performance at a rather small cost (the inconvenience of one person). In essence, the whole argument feels to me like warlocks that don't feel like applying CoE (or don't consider it something important on their priority list), or, in my particular case - not feeling like applying thunder clap or demo shout. It's there, you can do it, so why not?
There are certain things that you'd attribute to an offspec to do - many guilds use an OT to maintain Thunderclap/Demo shout (or even Demo Roar/Curse of Weakness) for min maxing reasons. It allows the tank to maintain higher TPS, while resulting in a rather minor DPS break for the other classes. Whether or not you decide to go that min/maxing route doesn't make *that* big of a difference at the end of the day, what matters is that the debuffs are up.
The problem with Judgement upkeep is that using a Ret paladin isn't aiding min/maxing at all in most cases - from what I've seen personally, this is directly caused by an unfortunately raiding unfriendly talent tree, along with some other issues (such as no innate threat reduction, making paladins spike severely on threat) - and by the fact that most (note, not all) ret paladins I've encountered have a very self-centric attitude, and it's not really about the raid benefit, it's just about being able to show off, or maintain a solo viable spec for pve.
At the end of the day, what that means, is that the call for a ret paladin to maintain judgements seems as though it stems from mere laziness. Yes, Judging as holy is inconvenient. I've tried it while healing, it's a pain. It throws you off of the whack-a-mole cycle, and it drops you on the healing meters, and may even result in a death here and there if your other healers aren't up to par. It's pretty obvious that those are all secondary issues though - such as being lazy, being too obsessed with meters, or being supported by sub-par healers.
In summary, from my own personal experience (and having lead SSC/TK raids prior to my guild change) - since the original idea of the thread was to inquire about the min/max viability/neccessity of judgements - yes, judgements are a huge benefit to your raid, and they are able to be kept up by a single Holy paladin. It *will* affect his performance. It is, given the current Retribution design, and general attitude of most Ret paladins, not worth to take a retribution paladin on raids for the sole purpose of maintaining Judgements.
Take this all with a grain of salt, I'm not making a secret of it that this is my personal observation in particular about the raiding attitude of the ret paladins I've encountered, and I'm sure there are some out there that are willing to do what it takes, but they are currently too few and far between to be able to make any across-the-board-blanket statement in favor of Ret.
I find judgments to be impractical at best. Why would you have two of your seven healers waste more than 10% of any given fight judging (global cooldown x3 + movement time/60s)? The WWS of Wisdom procs showed about 28k mana gained in 5:42. Those two paladins that judge spend (Judging 196x2 + SoL 280 + SoW 270 x3 = 2826 mana/min x5 2/3 min = 16k total) more than 16k mana just judging in that same time frame, not to mention the loss of 10% of your healing capability. At the very least the raid gets a net gain of only 20k mana. Something else to keep in mind.
I would judge a LOT more if lasting judgments was still in the game. Either that or make judging every 20s cheaper, because I sure as hell don't try to refresh a timer with melee swings.
Maybe other guilds that run with more healers can make it work, but we only use 6 or 7. Which isn't to say that I don't judge at all. I am just saying that it is harder than some make it out to be, not to mention the mana cost.
At the end of the day, what that means, is that the call for a ret paladin to maintain judgements seems as though it stems from mere laziness. Yes, Judging as holy is inconvenient. I've tried it while healing, it's a pain. It throws you off of the whack-a-mole cycle, and it drops you on the healing meters, and may even result in a death here and there if your other healers aren't up to par. It's pretty obvious that those are all secondary issues though - such as being lazy, being too obsessed with meters, or being supported by sub-par healers.
Calling it laziness as if that explains everything is sophism. If a fight requires any sort of positioning or makes being out of melee range helpful, that adds even more seconds during which the Judging paladin isn't healing. Even if it only takes 3-4 seconds per Judgement away from healing, the frequency of that still means that that paladin is now out of commission for 20% of the time. As we narrow down how many healers we use, every second like that counts even more.
And, of course, if someone happens to die for want of healing during that time, someone like you would be screaming to high heaven about it. It only needs to happen once to be a tremendous psychological disincentive; "if I Judge, people DIE!".
Beyond that, this is my standard comment when people start saying things about how Ret isn't useful on new content or on anything but "farm" content.
The US #4 guild uses a Ret paladin.
You can see him in all of their first kill shots too.
Most Ret paladins are useless and stupid. This is true. But, most of every class and spec, by population, is useless and stupid. The high functionality threshholds for non Holy paladins just makes this more obvious than it is for others; a mage who struggles to do 600 DPS is something you can only really find by examining a meter of some sort.
Really, I'd reccomend any Horde guild consider using a ret paladin, or at least trialling the idea. Seal of Blood is really quite exceptional, and for a number of reasons actually allows a reasonably geared player to be fully competitive as damage. For a number of mechanics reasons there, it's actually much much easier for a blood elf to perform at full value as DPS. Give them windfury and watch what happens.
There's nearly a 10% DPS loss going from Blood to Command, so I can't say the same for Alliance guilds, unless you find someone truly exceptional. It's really quite depressing to compare numbers, and one of the major topics that needs to be addressed for Ret.
I just personally feel that Paladins standing in the back and spamming FoL simply aren't getting the most out of the class. Yes, it's more difficult to keep a judgement up, but it hardly seems impossible.
I find judgments to be impractical at best. Why would you have two of your seven healers waste more than 10% of any given fight judging (global cooldown x3 + movement time/60s)? The WWS of Wisdom procs showed about 28k mana gained in 5:42. Those two paladins that judge spend (Judging 196x2 + SoL 280 + SoW 270 x3 = 2826 mana/min x5 2/3 min = 16k total) more than 16k mana just judging in that same time frame, not to mention the loss of 10% of your healing capability. At the very least the raid gets a net gain of only 20k mana. Something else to keep in mind.
...
Did you really just say ONLY 20k mana? Are you being serious?
I'm sure no Paladin would tolerate Warlocks not keeping curses up because it eats into their rotations, or tanks not keeping Thunderclap/Demo Shout on the mob. Not judging is selfish and is absolutely detrimental to your raid, bottom line.
Did you really just say ONLY 20k mana? Are you being serious?
I'm sure no Paladin would tolerate Warlocks not keeping curses up because it eats into their rotations, or tanks not keeping Thunderclap/Demo Shout on the mob. Not judging is selfish and is absolutely detrimental to your raid, bottom line.
Tank dying because he took a spike while you were retargetting and judging is somewhat detrimental for the raid I'd guess.
Please, it's not like paladins don't do it out of selfishness or because we want to top healing meters. You don't have that many free time to do stuff when healing.
And unless there's a shadowpriest in my group, 400ish mana every 20 seconds can be quite detrimental to performing my main function.
You have to press one button if you make a macro for keeping your judgement up on a mob. All you have to do is sit within range to judge.
Saying that you're too busy concentrating on healing to use up one GCD might be a valid excuse... a valid excuse on why you don't have 100% uptime. Not a valid excuse for never ever putting it up there.
Imagine if your warlocks said that they weren't specced for Malediction and they were too busy DPSing to refresh their CoS/CoE (not that a lock would ever let CoS fall off.... you get the point though)
Wake up folks, take a deep breath and wake to the reality. None is denying that judgements can be kept up. Fact is that at some cases it is impossible to keep it up 100% of time without putting MT or some important healer under risk of death. Yes, people do try keep judgements up as much as possible. But some times it just aint smart. This arguing is turning plain retarted when we all know how things really go ingame. You are merely just arguing over small details where you draw the line if the judgement is kept up 100% of time or best possible uptime.
And unless there's a shadowpriest in my group, 400ish mana every 20 seconds can be quite detrimental to performing my main function.
If you're good enough at managing your casting you can pay that 400ish one time for however long a fight. And why do people refuse to compare Judgment of Wisdom to Shadow Priests? The two are probably giving the same amount of mana back to the raid in general, probably JoW more(I haven't examined numbers on this). I'd like to see a raid bring a Shadow Priest who doesn't like keeping VT up.
Yes, there are exceptions, some fights are too healing or positioning intensive to guarantee 100% judgment uptime. Some.
You're right, Paladins don't refuse to judge out of selfishness. It's laziness.
You have to press one button if you make a macro for keeping your judgement up on a mob. All you have to do is sit within range to judge.
Saying that you're too busy concentrating on healing to use up one GCD might be a valid excuse... a valid excuse on why you don't have 100% uptime. Not a valid excuse for never ever putting it up there.
Imagine if your warlocks said that they weren't specced for Malediction and they were too busy DPSing to refresh their CoS/CoE (not that a lock would ever let CoS fall off.... you get the point though)
Problem is that the only fights I feel safe for trying to keep judgements up are farm fights. I know that I won't run oom, I know that I can safely have the time to get in position and throw a judgement from time to time without the tank dying... problem is, what's the point if the fight is on farm?
Mind, keeping judgements up is a *fun* thing to do when playing healer whack-a-mole, it's just can be compared to weaving a curse into the dps cycle of a warlock (which last much longer than 20 seconds if i'm not mistaken).
Problem is that the only fights I feel safe for trying to keep judgements up are farm fights. I know that I won't run oom, I know that I can safely have the time to get in position and throw a judgement from time to time without the tank dying... problem is, what's the point if the fight is on farm?
Mind, keeping judgements up is a *fun* thing to do when playing healer whack-a-mole, it's just can be compared to weaving a curse into the dps cycle of a warlock (which last much longer than 20 seconds if i'm not mistaken).
For me there's three basic stages to learning a fight. First you study, you "know" a fight by reading strategies, watching videos. You prepare yourself and know what should happen. Second, you learn the fight. You see what the abilities of the boss are in person, you learn the timing. Third, you execute the fight. Study/preparation -> learning -> executing should be a three/four/five attempt process, if not less. When you can anticipate how fights go you can plan your time better.. IE: keeping up judgements.
Hell, on learning encounters I don't keep improved scorch up 100% of the time, simply because I'm learning and sometimes it falls off because of bad timing. Know what? Once you get down the timing, when to move here, move there, you find time to put scorches up.
"Saying that you're too busy concentrating on healing to use up one GCD might be a valid excuse... a valid excuse on why you don't have 100% uptime. Not a valid excuse for never ever putting it up there."
Honestly don't understand the issue some pallies have with doing judgements. Yes it takes a bit of time out, but have any of you tried playing a shaman? There you have to deal with 4 buffs on a 2 minute timer (some on lower such as searing) and you also have to deal with redropping them in fights which require a lot of mobility. If a shaman can drop his totems and keep them refreshed (and good shamans do) then a pallie can rejudge every 20 seconds.
I'm sure no Paladin would tolerate Warlocks not keeping curses up because it eats into their rotations, or tanks not keeping Thunderclap/Demo Shout on the mob. Not judging is selfish and is absolutely detrimental to your raid, bottom line.
That warlock you're talking about would eventually land a curse on the boss anyways. He doesn't have to break any rotation for it. If that said warlock wouldn't put curse of weakness for example then he would probably put another dps curse that benefits him.
The only thing he'd lose is dps. And that's not the issue for Paladins, the issue is that I might be risking the death of my healing target, especially when you're in a raid that try to minimize the amount of healers making them be very careful with their moves.
Originally Posted by Kasi
Honestly don't understand the issue some pallies have with doing judgements. Yes it takes a bit of time out, but have any of you tried playing a shaman? There you have to deal with 4 buffs on a 2 minute timer (some on lower such as searing) and you also have to deal with redropping them in fights which require a lot of mobility. If a shaman can drop his totems and keep them refreshed (and good shamans do) then a pallie can rejudge every 20 seconds.
There is a huge difference between rejudging every 20 seconds and dropping totems every 2 minutes. Because of the way paladins heal with FoL spam you lose a considerable amount of healing each time. Especially when you have to run to the boss each time.
While I have to cast FoL on 4 those melee dpsers standing next to the boss, you as a shaman can cast chain heals instead. That's a whole different healing mechanic. And on top of this I have to remember the individual reblessing of some people that prefer other blessings that I've given their class.
Nobody here is saying that they don't judge, but keeping a 100% uptime is unfortunately a dream you might have to wait for a good while. Because if I'm going to get moaned at for not rejudging while I'm risking having my target dead, then you better bring a retribution paladin. You see, it's not the Paladin's stubbornness but the rest of the raids.
As we've said many times before, I judge when I can. Not the other way around.
07/15/07, 6:43 AM
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