When to use CoR, Amplify/Dampen Magic? - Page 9

Roywyn · 06/17/08, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by NinJOu

Hey Jarlyn,

Can you tell us if Amplify Magic affects Kalecgos & Brutallus spells ? (Like the arcane aura for Kalec and Burn / Meteor Slash for Brut) ?

Thanks

Brutallus - amplify the raid if you have two mages. Amplify tanks, warlocks and squishy people if you have only one.
No abilities deal more damage with amplify. And I think is can save a squishy burn target, or a tank through a hit streak.

Kalecgos - I think the arcane AoE pulse is affected by amp/dampen. His aura adds a debuff that increases arcane damage taken, this mechanic usually stacks with amp/dampen. And because his AoE pulse is affected by the debuff (that's the whole point of portal rotations), I guess amplify is affected as well.
I don't know about SBol volley.
Curse of Neverending is affected, but with a small coefficient. I think it added ~10 damage per tick or so. The extra damage does not scale as the curse progresses though, so your ticks go from 100-200-400-... to 110-210-410-..., so it's pretty trivial.
We amplify tanks, not sure about the raid though. The extra healing is good, but what kills people are Arcane-Portal, or Arcane-SBolt, or SBolt-SBolt spikes.

On Felmyst (and beyond as reported by other people), amplify is great and doesn't increase damage taken.

Originally Posted by Northerner

If anyone can actually show me a time that Amp Magic is not actually a net gain for a raid, I'd like to see it.

Old post, but still! Terestian Illhoof is the one and only fight where Dampening the raid (except for Terestian's tank) is good.
It cuts the imps' firebolt damage in half, which more than offsets the healing loss on the raid and the warlock/warrior/mage/whoever tanks and AoEs the imps.
It also reduced every tick if the sacrifice by the full amount of dampen, making it easier to live though.

I know, Karazhan is old and nerfed content, but that's my only use for Dampen magic besides farming Elementals for motes.

Aeryn · 06/18/08, 6:25 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Old post, but still! Terestian Illhoof is the one and only fight where amping the raid (except for Terestian's tank) is good.

Correction: you probably meant to say dampening. It's equally good on the Curator for the same reason (~800 damage/second by those arcane things; ~350 with improved dampen)

Rezdan · 06/19/08, 1:50 AM

Originally Posted by orcsgotbooty

Whenever you have 2-3 warlocks and one of your warriors has imp demo. It really is worth it to be either the 2nd or 3rd curse almost every single fight. To be honest I can't think of any fight I wouldn't put it up as long as the warrior with imp demo is competent with his debuffs.

I'm not in a very serious guild but we're still solidly progressing and are currently 5/6, 3/4, 2/5. They don't usually min/max class balance for encounters for example which usually means we have the following makeup:
4 Warrior Tanks
1 Prot Pally
6 Physical Dps (Rogues/Warrs/EnhShamm/Hunters/etc)
3 Warlocks
4 Other Caster dps (EleSham/Mages/SPs/etc)
7 Healers

Now, I'm trying to find some numbers(boss ap numbers maybe?) that justify the use of CoR since we have enough warlocks showing up each raid to put it up (even before new patch) especially with the fairly high number of physical dps in the raids.

Any way I can prove to em that CoR when used with x/5 Imp Demo won't result in significantly more dmg taken? I've linked to this thread and 1-2 others on the WoW forums but I'm positive the leadership is *not* even considering CoR atm.

edit: Missed out a word while typing. Also included guild progress.

Petersen · 06/19/08, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by Rezdan

I'm not in a very serious guild but we're still solidly progressing and are currently 5/6, 3/4, 2/5. They don't usually min/max class balance for encounters for example which usually means we have the following makeup:
4 Warrior Tanks
1 Prot Pally
6 Physical Dps (Rogues/Warrs/EnhShamm/Hunters/etc)
3 Warlocks
4 Other Caster dps (EleSham/Mages/SPs/etc)
7 Healers

Now, I'm trying to find some numbers(boss ap numbers maybe?) that justify the use of CoR since we have enough warlocks showing up each raid to put it up (even before new patch) especially with the fairly high number of physical dps in the raids.

Any way I can prove to em that CoR when used with x/5 Imp Demo won't result in significantly more dmg taken? I've linked to this thread and 1-2 others on the WoW forums but I'm positive the leadership is *not* even considering CoR atm.

edit: Missed out a word while typing. Also included guild progress.

I'm very much interested in direct evidence to support the useage of it as well. I know the 'top guilds' use it an all that, but my guild leadership seems to be concerned with the increased damage the tank will be tanking.

The interesting thing is, I don't think they use Imp Devo or Imp CoW at all, and if they did use maxed either one, would the result be a net gain in DPS done by the raid *and* reduction in DPS taken by the tank?

EDIT: Clarified an ambiguous point

Anedris · 06/19/08, 5:58 PM

Imp. demo shout combined with screech completely negates the extra AP from CoR and leaves the boss at 0 AP (or the minimum that boss AP can be reduced to). If you don't have screech I think CoR + imp. demo leaves the boss with something like 20 AP more than it would have without CoR (not sure of the exact number).

We use CoR with imp. demo but no screech on Brutallus and we do him with 7 healers.

Orbaxiin · 07/06/08, 5:22 AM

So just to be clear, in order for the AP buff from CoR to be almost fully accounted for, demo shout must have all five talent points invested into it? I remember reading somewhere else saying that only 2-3 points were needed.

Anedris · 07/06/08, 5:50 AM

That is correct. The 2-3 points is all you need to nullify boss AP when not using CoR (so if your guild does not use CoR there is no point going 5/5; of course, your guild *should* be using CoR, but some don't).

Raugturi · 07/21/08, 4:33 PM

Ok, I got busy with work for a while, but I'm looking back over this and here's what I have for data on CoR:

Any see any huge flaws or omissions? Also, I'm not sure that the table of armor values is entirely necessary, but if it is I'll make it much prettier for the Thinktank document.

Description (Rank 5): Curses the target with recklessness, increasing melee attack power by 135 but reducing armor by 800 for 2 min. Cursed enemies will not flee and will ignore Fear and Horror effects. Only one Curse per Warlock can be active on any one target.

Factors:

Will it outperform other curses based on current raid setup?
Will it potentially cause a wipe?
- Does the boss have specials that will be increased by AP?
- Do you have a warrior with Improved Demoralizing Shout (-420 AP) and/or are you using Screech (-210 AP)?

Benefit:

Boss Armor Values: The vast majority of bosses, other than those in Karazhan, have either 6200 or 7700 armor.
Damage Reduction from Armor: DR% = Armor / (Armor + (467.5 * AttackerLevel - 22167.5))
Comparison: Increase to melee DPS = (Reduction without CoR - Reduction with CoR)/(1 - Reduction without CoR)

Boss with 6200 Armor = 5.08% increase
Boss with 7700 Armor = 4.66% increase
Special Cases:
- Void Reaver (8800 Armor) = 4.40% increase
- Essence of Suffering (0 Armor ) = no benefit
- See Table for Karazhan bosses

To determine if the benefit of CoR outweights the benefit of a damage curse, simply look at your melee dps and determine if the increase in melee dps will be greater than the damage curse in question. For most 25-person raids the answer is yes, even with only a few melee dps. If you are the only Warlock in the raid, Curse of the Elements is now always going to be the preferred curse.

Wipe Potential:

The increase in AP from CoR is only 135 AP. However, for a boss this translates to ~68DPS and increases instants by ~223dmg before mitigation. Therefore, with bosses who have specials that are increased by AP, it is advisable to skip CoR unless you have a warrior with Improved Demoralizing Shout. You may consider having a Hunter pet use Screech either as a supplement to or replacement for Demoralizing Shout, however you will need to be much more careful with this approach as it provides only half the AP reduction of a fully improved Demo Shout.

Table: Known Armor Values

Karazhan
Name (Armor Value)		Reduction w/o CoR	Reduction with CoR	Damage Increase
Attumen the Huntsman (7500)		41.53%			38.78%			4.71%
Midnight (8200)				43.72%			41.16%			4.54%
Maiden of Virtue (6700)			38.82%			35.81%			4.93%
Julianne (6100)				36.62%			33.38%			5.11%
Romulo (7600)				41.86%			39.13%			4.69%
Strawman (7300)				40.88%			38.06%			4.77%
Roar (4700)				30.80%			26.94%			5.59%
The Curator (6100)			36.62%			33.38%			5.11%
Shade of Aran (3800)			26.47%			22.10%			5.95%
Kil'rek (3400)				24.36%			19.73%			6.12%
Terestian Illhoof (6700)		38.82%			35.81%			4.93%
Nightbane (7600)			41.86%			39.13%			4.69%
Netherspite (5500)			34.25%			30.76%			5.30%
Prince Malchezaar (7600)		41.86%			39.13%			4.69%

Serpentshrine Cavern
Name (Armor Value)		Reduction w/o CoR	Reduction with CoR	Damage Increase
Hydross the Unstable (7700)		42.17%			39.48%			4.66%
The Lurker Below (7700)			42.17%			39.48%			4.66%
Leotheras the Blind (7700)		42.17%			39.48%			4.66%
Fathom-Lord Karathress (6200)		37.00%			33.80%			5.08%
Morogrim Tidewalker (7700)		42.17%			39.48%			4.66%
Lady Vashj (6200)			37.00%			33.80%			5.08%

Tempest Keep
Name (Armor Value)		Reduction w/o CoR	Reduction with CoR	Damage Increase
Void Reaver (8800)			45.46%			43.06%			4.40%
High Astromancer Solarian (6200)	37.00%			33.80%			5.08%
Al'ar (7700)				42.17%			39.48%			4.66%
Kael'thas Sunstrider (6200)		37.00%			33.80%			5.08%

Hyjal Summit
Name (Armor Value)		Reduction w/o CoR	Reduction with CoR	Damage Increase
Rage Winterchill (6200)			37.00%			33.80%			5.08%
Anetheron (6200)			37.00%			33.80%			5.08%
Kaz'rogal (6200)			37.00%			33.80%			5.08%
Azgalor (6200)				37.00%			33.80%			5.08%
Archimonde (6200)			37.00%			33.80%			5.08%

Black Temple
Name (Armor Value)		Reduction w/o CoR	Reduction with CoR	Damage Increase
High Warlord Naj'entus (7700)		42.17%			39.48%			4.66%
Supremus (7700)				42.17%			39.48%			4.66%
Shade of Akama (7700)			42.17%			39.48%			4.66%
Teron Gorefiend (6200)			37.00%			33.80%			5.08%
Gurtogg Bloodboil (7700)		42.17%			39.48%			4.66%
Reliquary of Souls
 - Essence of Suffering (0)		0.00%			0.00%			0.00%
 - Essence of Desire (7700)		42.17%			39.48%			4.66%
 - Essence of Anger (7700)		42.17%			39.48%			4.66%
Mother Shahraz (6200)			37.00%			33.80%			5.08%
Illidari Council 					
 - Gathios the Shatterer (6200)		37.00%			33.80%			5.08%
Illidan (6200)				37.00%			33.80%			5.08%

Sunwell
Name (Armor Value)		Reduction w/o CoR	Reduction with CoR	Damage Increase
Brutallus (7700)			42.17%			39.48%			4.66%

Sydane · 07/21/08, 5:11 PM

Some connection needs to be made to the common debuffs on bosses, armor penetration, and the increasing value of CoR as related. I don't think the chart with all the armor values and percents is needed, especially since it is so highly impacted by other debuffs. Maybe just the base armor values chart (or a link to the post with armor values).

I'd highly recommend including this post pretty much exactly:

http://elitistjerks.com/714209-post62.html

I don't think the comment regarding CoE is necessary or accurate, people can determine the value for themselves based on raid makeup (and I've seen plenty of parses where CoR is worth more than even the combined CoE).

Where did the 68 dps number come from? It seems way low, but if it's right I'd like to see the data because I've never seen numbers that conclusive before. On a boss that hits for 5k (post mitigation), that would only be an increase of 1%, but it's an increase in AP of 10% or more.

Raugturi · 07/21/08, 5:26 PM

Thank you for the link to the CoW post. I will include that information to update my information and have it take into account all possible AP buffs/debuffs.

I don't think the comment regarding CoE is necessary or accurate, people can determine the value for themselves based on raid makeup (and I've seen plenty of parses where CoR is worth more than even the combined CoE).

Noted. I'll take that out and replace it with a note to look at raid benefit of CoE vs CoR based on raid setup. I'm still thinking for a vast majority of fights/raid setups CoE comes out ahead though. :-)

Where did the 68 dps number come from? It seems way low, but if it's right I'd like to see the data because I've never seen numbers that conclusive before. On a boss that hits for 5k (post mitigation), that would only be an increase of 1%, but it's an increase in AP of 10% or more.

That is from a previous comment in this thread, here:
When to use CoR, Amplify/Dampen Magic?

Which is based on this discussion:
Demoralizing shout et al.

I didn't actually read the entire discussion though, so if this is still being debated I'll either leave it out or recalculate based on the available information.

Edit: What's http://elitistjerks.com/714209-post62.html doing not in this thread anyway? :-) Somebody just throw that on the wiki and I'll call it a wasted afternoon.

Sydane · 07/21/08, 5:41 PM

I guess it just seems to me like 68 dps is trivial, even 223 dps is pretty small, and I was under the impression that it would vary with the strength of the boss (like CoR on Teron will hurt a lot more than CoR on Lurker), but that's just an assumption of mine that I don't really have any numbers to back up with.

I'm glad you're taking the time to put this together, as you can see, the available information is scattered around three or four different threads and is quite disjointed to find if you're actually trying to figure stuff out.

Roywyn · 07/21/08, 6:30 PM

Originally Posted by Raugturi

I didn't actually read the entire discussion though, so if this is still being debated I'll either leave it out or recalculate based on the available information.

The demo shout thread is from pre-BC *cough*
I did a little write up of the damage/AP figures in different debuff combinations:

* A level 73 boss (and most other level 73 bosses) have 340 attack power.
* Attack power can be reduced to 0, but not below that.

* Boss melee attack damage consists of base damage and an attack power component.
* Attack power debuffs can reduce the attack power damage to zero, but they will not affect the base damage.

* Removing the 340 AP of a level 73 boss reduces its damage by 14.25%, and the the 85.75% base damage remain.
* Or, looking from the other perspective: The 340 AP increase the boss damage by 16.62%.
* That means that 1 AP increases boss damage by 0.04888%.
* Or, every 20.457 attack power increase boss damage by 1%.

* A boss with 0/5 Demo has 40 AP left, or 1.955% bonus damage.
* A boss with 2/5 Demo has no AP left.
* A boss with R5 CoReck and 0/5 Demo has 175 AP left, or 8.554% bonus damage.
* A boss with R5 CoReck and 5/5 Demo has 55 AP left, or 2.688% bonus damage.
* A boss with R5 CoReck, 0/5 Demo and Screech has 0 AP left.

* A boss with R4 CoReck and 5/5 Demo has 10 AP left, or 0.4888% bonus damage.
* A boss with R3 CoReck and 5/5 Demo has 0 AP.
* Rank 4 CoReck is -640 armour / +90 attack power, Rank 3 is -465 armour / +65 AP. Rank 5 is -800 armour/ +135 AP.

Please don't copy paste that!
I just put up all the condensed information that was scattered around into one spot.
You should keep in some info about AP/damage figures, the "CoR5 + 5/5 Demo" figure should appear since that's the standard for most guilds on most fights.

Originally Posted by Sydane

I guess it just seems to me like 68 dps is trivial, even 223 dps is pretty small, and I was under the impression that it would vary with the strength of the boss (like CoR on Teron will hurt a lot more than CoR on Lurker), but that's just an assumption of mine that I don't really have any numbers to back up with.

It AP scales relatively for mobs, see the info above.

Brutallus does ~4.4k DPS (after mitigation/avoidance, taken right from WWS) on double druids.
An uncountered CoReck 5 would add ~300 DPS, or ~6.5% like in the figure above.
Is is a lot? Will it kill your tank? I don't know, but you now have a rough idea what it does.

Source to read up more: Curse of Weakness

Raugturi · 07/21/08, 6:54 PM

Thank you, I will definitely be reading that whole CoW thread tonight to update all this tomorrow, and no I don't plan to cut and paste. Like Syndane said, and as this whole thing shows, it's just a matter of getting all of this info into one spot. Right now it's so spread out it's hard to find, and there are too many variables to say "use CoR on these bosses" or "use CoR when you have X melee dps or more". It really is going to vary from group to group and fight to fight, so I think just a nice easy to read summary of all the pertinent information will be the best bet.

Honestly though, I like to just use trial and error. If we wipe and the assessment on what went wrong doesn't work out to "the tank took too much damage" I keep putting up CoR. I find it's far more entertaining and gives the healers a more exciting time for their money.

UnholY_Prince · 07/22/08, 12:47 AM

Honestly though, I like to just use trial and error. If we wipe and the assessment on what went wrong doesn't work out to "the tank took too much damage" I keep putting up CoR. I find it's far more entertaining and gives the healers a more exciting time for their money.

The problem with this approach is, the majority of times in these situations, CoR wasn't the difference between the tank taking too much damage or not; even w/o CoR he probably would have died. Assuming you have 5/5 Improved Demo Shout, the addition of CoR is largely negligible and is far outweighed by the extra DPS added.

NinJOu · 08/06/08, 6:23 AM

Do somebody know how much PA a lvl 70 mob has ? I'm tanking the void sents on M'uru and i'm trying to figure out what spec i should use.

Thanks