Yes, I am barely crit immune, which is why I can not swap out my cloak, bracers or neck. I think 1 single defense or resil will enable crits, possibly 2. Pants/boot/belt are my only option and that's a large loss of armor/hp from those 3.
I'll be sure to post the logs when they are uploaded, but from memory my average hit was 5800 or so, and average max hit was 7800. Comparing them to a lot of others was the first thing I did after our first hour on the boss to make sure it was indeed worth me tanking. My avoidance is much lower of course, hovering in the mid 60's.
Also if I'm not mistaken the parry mechanic was going to be changed one day, but it won't be fixed next patch I thought? Or perhaps I'm getting hot fixes confused with patches.
Yes, I am barely crit immune, which is why I can not swap out my cloak, bracers or neck. I think 1 single defense or resil will enable crits, possibly 2. Pants/boot/belt are my only option and that's a large loss of armor/hp from those 3.
I'll be sure to post the logs when they are uploaded, but from memory my average hit was 5800 or so, and average max hit was 7800. Comparing them to a lot of others was the first thing I did after our first hour on the boss to make sure it was indeed worth me tanking. My avoidance is much lower of course, hovering in the mid 60's.
Also if I'm not mistaken the parry mechanic was going to be changed one day, but it won't be fixed next patch I thought? Or perhaps I'm getting hot fixes confused with patches.
Hmm good question about parry, now that you mention it I'm not sure if it was slated for 2.2 or not.
You're right crit immunity would be a bitch for you and having to swap out important pieces (legs/boots) for SR isn't a great option. You could probably get away using defense trinkets instead bb/hydross to get capped.
As our Shahraz MT I go with a kit of 259 SR buffed, 31k-ish armor, 21k hp and crit immune. I lose 10+% dodge though, but it's no problem. Less chances of dying to stupid game mechanics than without using SR.
I'm using a defense trinket with +hp use, heavy clefthoof boots and enchanted my SR bracers with defense. Using a fort flask instead of agi+fort elixirs to reach crit immunity.
It was not slated for 2.2. That means it will probably never be fixed.
Daelo said (if I remember correctly) that the Parry mechanic is being made a switch they can flip, much like the switch to make a mob non-Crushing. It will be turned off for Shahraz, and it will be added to the devs' arsenal of tuning devices for future encounters.
Daelo said (if I remember correctly) that the Parry mechanic is being made a switch they can flip, much like the switch to make a mob non-Crushing. It will be turned off for Shahraz, and it will be added to the devs' arsenal of tuning devices for future encounters.
They could at least drop the parry rate on Shahraz from 15% to, say, 5%.
They could at least drop the parry rate on Shahraz from 15% to, say, 5%.
You assume they can configure this while Daelo's wording makes it quite clear they need a development effort to make this configurable in the first place.
I read the "if I remember correctly" phrase as if they are implementing an on/off switch for parry, nothing was mentioned about how difficult it is to tune existing game mechanics.
Fixing the parry mechanic for this fight could quite possibly be the best thing they can do to help the randomness, aside from the obvious meele stacking issue. Most FA ports you can deal with and can come out alive as long as people are smart about moving and especially about taking healthstones/pots when they need to. Last night we saw mother turn to the meele for 3-4 seconds, I dont know why she does this but it seems to happen on quite a few mobs. Needless to say our tank took 24k spike damage in 1.7 seconds. That was a fun wipe.
Do most guilds find themselves using COR on Mother? I figured the faster it is to kill her the better, just a matter of time before some random bullshit like that happens so you might as well get her down fast.
Oh yeah we had a feral druid tank our first kill and a warriort anking the second, both with around 250 buffed shadow resist. They took off 2 pieces of shadow resist gear so they were mixing the BT/Hyjal tanking gear and the shadow resist, we found that healing the druid was much much easier and lived through spikes which would have potentially killed our warrior MT.
Are you insane? How much melee damage does Shahraz take in a given fight? How much shadow damage? How is this even something you have to think about?
Seriously, are people here without even looking at something as simple as a damage meter or WWS? Bets are your shadow DPSers are each doing less shadow DPS than the MT DPS. Certainly you're bringing more physical DPS than shadow DPS (probably 3-4 times, even)? Bets are your non-MT, physical DPS are doing a MINIMUM of triple the DPS as any one shadow DPS.
We just started doing this fight finally after farming up the SR. I really do wish they'd clarify in the patch notes for 2.2 what is going on with the parry mechanic. Fortunately we've found that threat in this fight is so easy thus far that both me and the druid we've tried have been able to shut off their autoattack a good way into the fight just for additional safety.
Its nice that you can work around it, but it really shouldn't be there.... Its kinda sad but even the extra power we'd get from our tank and two offtanks attacking/judging would make a notable difference. Even killing this cheap demon hooker 10 seconds faster makes that roulette wheel a bit safer.....
We've also found that a warrior with ironshields works better then a druid. The damage difference taken isn't huge physically under those conditions, but the warrior takes the magic better along with Last Stand/Shield Wall to just be a leg up. If you're not into dumping all those ironshields in though, I wouldn't even consider a warrior tank.
If only there was some way to remove the last little killer, repeated ports into large groups of people. We've actually managed to deal with a port into the DPS and into the ranged, but its just so draining and if it happens again thats really the nail in the coffin. My personal view as a game programmer in training is that any fight where a group can do everything perfectly and meet all statistical requirements yet still lose is just poor design. Luck does not make something harder, it just makes it frusterating.
I am pretty sure the Parry mechanic is not going to be changed in 2.2. It is something they want to do in the future.
As far as Judgements, Paladins can do this facing the opposite way, so they can stay up, it just will not be mana free (recast every 20).
We haven't had issues yet with ports on the raid / tanks, but it might be because we bring 10 healers to Mother. I think that the only RNG issue we could have now is just mass mana burns on the raid...
wanted to update everyone and highlight some upcoming changes in the 2.2 patch for some of our raid encounters. Many of these changes are not on test yet, and this isn't every single improvement that's being made.
Archimonde
...
Mother Shahraz
...
- In a later patch, we're blocking off some of the nastier places to get placed by Fatal Attraction, and the "Couches of Death" we'll be fixed. In the meantime, you should be able to mitigate a problematic Fatal Attraction teleport by tanking Mother Shahraz away from these locations.
- Also in a later patch, we'll be able to disable the "decreased melee swing time" effect caused by Mother Shahraz parrying a melee attack. The parry mechanic is exacerbating the already rather intense burst damage that Mother Shahraz can inflict.
Its quite unclear what he means, he lists changes for 2.2 some of which got hotfixed later, but under the changes which are for 2.2 he states certain ones will be in a later patch?
On the current PTR notes however neither of the last 2 changes are posted, so its a pretty safe guess that these wont be implemented in 2.2, let alone anytime soon.
There are reasons to use CoS or CoE instead of CoR even in a melee heavy raid, we did this for a long time and are only now starting to use CoR. It may have been better but if your tank is just barely at the point of having this possible, CoR can be a very bad idea.
As a reference, we ran with 2 resto shamans and 1 holy priest for a long time on this fight, the 25% armor buff was a gift to get it but nothing I could rely on if we wanted decent raid healing. We didn't do tank loot distribution ideally before Shahraz, and I was consistently getting smashed to sub 1k hp from just a little shadow damage thrown in during a melee/lash/melee period.
If you've got the healing so that your tank isn't at a risk of dieing, CoR is far far better, but if you're still worrying about keeping the tank up, you can last through a longer fight. (Many of our fights have been 8 minutes and longer)
Yes, once you've got a solid setup and everything is great, CoR is great, we had our fastest kill ever this week with CoR up and 5 shamans in the raid (4 resto 1 enhance, usually had 2 resto 1 enhance) without me dropping below 4k hp, but I don't think I would have wanted it up a month and a half ago.
A trick we use is having Resto Shamans spam Rank 1 Healing Wave with Totem of the Maelstrom whenever they have a spare global cooldown (i.e. raid is topped off). This provides a bit of MT healing (bugged Healing Way woo) and seriously increases the Inspiration/Ancestral Fortitude uptime. Like so: Ghando - WWS
Note the 460 average on Healing Wave...my only other Healing Wave use was a single max-rank NS heal. Even so, there's about 20,000 effective healing on the MT from Rank 1 spam. The other Resto Shamans didn't spam Rank 1 nearly as much as I did (bunch of slackers), but it definitely helps with MT healing.
Not extremely relevant to the current issues being discussed but I feel inclined to ask anyways because we have been having major disagreements within the guild about this. We got our first Shahraz Kill last night and on our kill attempts we couldn't have gotten luckier. Perhaps one port that barely edged the melee and one port that hit our single camp ranged group pretty solid but at that point the boss was at 5% and somehow we miraculously all still had mana. The stars just aligned for that one attempt. Sure enough, we got back for a second kill and get a full night of wipes. Our luck seemed extremely bad but we had attempts that were definitely good enough yet people died to FA on 3 ports and YES, bevlieve it or not, even 2 ports. Which is just ridiculous imo.
We use the scatter method, We used to have the whole raid plus shahraz facing west and everyone would be facing west when they got ported every single time no questions asked. We told them to mix it up and not always run forward, like they should run SW, E, etc. It worked fairly well until we had like 10 attempts in a row with the worst FA ports ever. We moved the raid to a pillar, keeping her in the center in order to reduce the area around us that would effect our single ranged camp. Also to mix it up a little we kept healers and a few mages and what not facing in different directions for the whole fight, like maybe having their back to the boss facing against a wall. That way we figured they could just run straight when they get ported. Sure enough, healers started facing different directions after getting ported then they were beforehand. I am quite certain that almost all the ports were facing SW or W which was always the way Shahraz was facing.
I am now quite convinced that she always ports you facing the way she is facing. The other officers were just insisting there was no rhyme or reason to it and its pointless to try and figure out. Even if we use the scatter strat though, people just seemed to be completely confused and almost stopping altogether not realizing what way they were facing because before they could expect to always face west but not necessarily anymore.
I read through most of the post and I apologize if this question was already answered, I must have missed it somewhere.
Are you insane? How much melee damage does Shahraz take in a given fight? How much shadow damage? How is this even something you have to think about?
Absolutely, as you and zilch both mentioned - one of the worst parts of this fight is the prismatic shielding.
I read the parry mechanic as "never going in" as well. I mean, cause thats what he says...
- In a later patch, we're blocking off some of the nastier places to get placed by Fatal Attraction, and the "Couches of Death" we'll be fixed. In the meantime, you should be able to mitigate a problematic Fatal Attraction teleport by tanking Mother Shahraz away from these locations.
- Also in a later patch, we'll be able to disable the "decreased melee swing time" effect caused by Mother Shahraz parrying a melee attack. The parry mechanic is exacerbating the already rather intense burst damage that Mother Shahraz can inflict.
Later patch... This was posted almost 2 months ago.
We haven't had issues yet with ports on the raid / tanks, but it might be because we bring 10 healers to Mother. I think that the only RNG issue we could have now is just mass mana burns on the raid...
Yeah, a decent portion of our success with the fight (8 pulls total for our last 6 kills combined) is definitely attributable to bringing a lot of healers. We put 2 resto druids and 2 paladins, or 1 resto druid and 3 paladins, depending on composition, on the MT. Two others stand a bit off to either side of the raid and have the priority of (ported people > assigned Lash OT > raid healing), and everyone else just heals the raid. Priority #1 is just making sure the MT never dies. You can recover from anything else, even 6-8 deaths to a horrible port, but not from your MT dying.
Here's a WWS from a really, really ugly Shahraz: Wow Web Stats
Repeated ports 5yd from the entire ranged stack that forced everyone to reposition. A disgusting amount of mana burning (Mother Shahraz - WWS -- more Wicked than Sinful + Sinister combined), etc.
Yes Ghando, like I said we use CoR now, it was great this week, and it's certainly a valuable curse (In fact we had a rogue hit like 1700 dps or so on Shahraz this week because of how our raid was setup) but on many earlier kills, it wasn't worth the risk. We had 2 shamans who were hitting me with small heals whenever they could to help with ancestral healing but they didn't have many free GCD's (Though it might work to say it's our healing strategy that wasn't ideal) and it just wasn't up enough to justify CoR killing me on combos where I lived with 400 hp.
I still very highly recommend CoR, but in some situations I'm just saying it's not stupid to not use it. If your tank is just barely geared (like I was when we were first doing Shahraz) and you're not getting a very high up time on ancestral healing, it can be dangerous, and I'd really suggest asking your tank what he thinks (FWIW I was recommending CoR a few weeks before we did start using it, but for our first few kills I do think it would have wiped us plenty)
Then again, maybe I'm skewed in opinion because we don't seem to get too many just terrible ports since we tank in the middle, and she very rarely likes to do a knock up saber lash on me.
I am now quite convinced that she always ports you facing the way she is facing. The other officers were just insisting there was no rhyme or reason to it and its pointless to try and figure out. Even if we use the scatter strat though, people just seemed to be completely confused and almost stopping altogether not realizing what way they were facing because before they could expect to always face west but not necessarily anymore.
This is true. For us we're facing her down the path towards the entrance to the room, and sure enough every single person is always facing that direction. I've made it a point to remind people of this and tell them that they HAVE to change direction or them and two other tards will be holding hands running down the path together.
There are two major factors that make this fight considerably easier.
First is to use Los since mother cannot port people to a place she cannot see, they are safe from being ported onto too, as well she cannot directly target those people with beams.
Second is a odd mechanic, for Fa portals the spot she chooses will randomly be along a direct path or line from herself to anyone she can see. Limit FA portal positions by knowing this and using LOS makes this fight a tonne easier.
Working from just these 2 principles a good guild should be able to limit the 'randomness' and 'bad ports'. We beat her with just 2.5 nights spent using this and other strategic moves into what is now a very easy fight.
09/19/07, 7:19 PM
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