Cranberry

Some current fights would translate well, others wouldn't, but these fights *were not designed with a 10-man group in mind*. Remember that. If 10-man Felmyst had Gas Bomb, maybe it would be a curse and not a magical effect but only affect two people.

That said, let's consider easy translations:

Gruul in a smaller room would work fine.
Magtheridon with, say, 2 channelers and 3 cubes (with the logic that one channeler should be down in time).
Addless Hydross with some added ability for interest (perhaps volleys) would work fine.
Lurker with only two platforms and fewer adds would be fine.
Leo would be fine, less his spellbinders.
Morogrim would be fine with fewer adds and graves.

Al'ar with 3 platforms and no Melt Armor.
VR would be fine with slower orbs.
Solarian would be fine with fewer adds.
Kael'thas has already shown himself to be downscalable in MrT.

Hyjal as a whole has really simple boss mechanics, so other than Azgalor's Doom everything should be fine.

Naj'entus would work fine.
Supremus as well.
Akama perhaps only one add door.
Teron would obviously have to not kill your raid, or perhaps have a longer wait before he does.
RoS would work fine, although requiring reflects on Deaden would be pushing class requirements
Gurtogg would work fine, less perhaps Arcing Smash and 1-2 target Bloodboils
Mother would work fine
Council would actually work okay too in its current incarnation if a warlock could also tank Zerevor
Illidan I can't speak to.

M'uru, less the MassDs, would work fine from what I know of the encounter.

Fights that would NOT work:
Vashj
Kalecgos
Twins

Also, a lot of people make the point of a 10-man having lesser chance of individual failings. That's true. However, the loss of one raid member in a 10-man is roughly equivalent to the loss of three in a 25-man. You can, except on bleeding-edge fights, have a dps die and get through it. That's not necessarily true in a 10-man.

 

Paga

I really feel that Blizz will keep the spirit of the fight alive between the two but the 10 man and the 25 man will be very different. Otherwise a 25 man guild can easily do the 10 man fight to just get more loot very quickly. I think it's pretty clear they want two different paths.

 

Liebestod

This is true, in some cases a 10-man fight would have a smaller relative margin for error.. if your 10-man Vashj strider kiter dies, it's probably over, no one's going to manage to pick it up or spam it with Netherweave Nets until it's dead.

That said, I think one can do better than just scaling down the encounters. Your 10-man Mag has 2 Channelers and 3 Cubes... I think we can be more creative to make up for the downsizing, though. Keep the 5 Channelers, only have a random one cast Shadow Bolt Volley at a time with an obvious graphic so an interrupter can react quickly enough. Up the infernal spawn rate and make them weaker so a dedicated DPSer is supposed to kill them. Keep the 5 cubes as well, but only make 3 of them active per Blast Wave... and make it so they have to be clicked in the right order to boot. Oh, and phases 2 and 3 were always kinda boring in between clicks, so let's have Mag shoot Void Reaver orbs too, with a smaller explosion radius. See? Probably as hard as the 25-man version now, and if not... just be creative, think of some mechanics which fit into the essence of the fight.

 

◊ Cadfael

Do we really need to bring our ideas for downsizing current bosses to 10 man size to proof something here ?

All the bosses in ZA are way more complex, require more coordination and awareness than basically everything in Molten Core, and that was a 40 man raid. Complexity may not exceed certain limits to not make it so that you need the very correct 10 classes there, but that's about the only limit.

When the announcement of the downsizing of the 40 man raids came, amongst the complaints were also doubts if fights could be made complex and interesting enough then. Well TBC came and yes, it could be done, Blizzard delivered fights with more complexities and more responsibilities. I for one have full confidence that it will work this time too. Besides the fact that we'll keep the 25man bosses with their abilities and probably get a few new features and mechanics with 10 new levels and abilities and one new class, Blizzard already demonstrated that they can do interesting 10 man content. Designing a 10man boss and making it stronger and more involved as well as doing the reverse and soften up a 25man boss so that it is doable with 10 players is certainly within their capabilities.

I only hope that this time, unlike in TBC, beta starts earlier or lasts longer so that people have time to test and deliver meaningful feedback for the then available max-level content. In TBC beta this was almost not possible, since there simply wasn't much time and consequently, there was few Karazhan and Gruul feedback (and Gruul was too easy, but the changed version never made it to beta). Consequently, levelling was fine and polished and the troubles started at max-level.

Hopefully, PVE instances get introduced/staggered much like PVP seasons. They are already linked with regard to the loot you get out of either of them, so not releasing 5 raidinstances at the first day spanning 3 tiers (or 2 depending how you feel about it) and thus causing a feeling of missing out for those that can't run through all of them fast is probably also hinted at by the admission that not all raidinstances are going to be there on day one. I expect one PVE tier per PVP season.

 

LaOrange

Aside from the PvP/10 man/ 25 man/badge venues, there is also crafting to consider.

The blacksmithing module: there are 2 upgrades, keeping your weapon/armor always the best there is at your progression level, 'till you reach 'heart of darkness' and 'sun mote', where there are no more upgrades.

The tailoring module: you get a set that give you the stats you need, in abundance, while neglecting some stats that although you want, you don't need.

I think they should combine both modules, an upgradeable set that uses nothing but craft mats at first, then uses naxx mote, then uses godonlyknowsprimalofunspokenevil, thus giving incentive for keeping what ever your craft of choice is, and not dropping it for LW or whatever craft that will give you the most non-gear buff in the expansion.

 

Axanor

I guess I don't see why they're just not trying to recreate the AQ20/AQ40 model here mixed with MgT/TK25 in order to produce the content.

I understand why they want everyone to face Arthas. But giving the 10-man players slimmed down 25-man fights just seems to be inviting a whole host of complaints from both sides. I'm all for Parallel progression. The system where 10-man loot is a tier below 25 man loot and the instances come out concurrently is actually something I've argued for. But making the 10 and 25 man versions resized copies of each other seems to be taking it to the point of absurdity. Not to mention the fact that most of us running the 25-mans still run the 10-mans in our off-raid time, I can't imagine the tedium that clearing 2 versions of the same instance in 1 week would create.

 

Lezwyn

I hope Blizzard takes the complaints about 25man instances being relatively less of a visual accomplishment as an incentive to add other rewards besides loot. For example, what if there was a board in Dalaran that would hold the name of the first guild to complete X instance? A problem with that is it doesn't do anything for not-cuttingedge guilds, but I'm sure there are other options to pursue to keep it being rewarding.

 

Alvira

The problem I think is with resources. I believe ideally, parrellel progression is what they and everyone would want. But parellel progression with different content. The main problem is with resources. Even blizzard will be hard pressed to come out with different content, and yet be able to keep up seperate parellel progression raid paths.

This would mean that just on the raid level, they would need to created double the content each time. I think that at this point in time, they are just not able nor willing to create seperate content based on the two paths. Its literally double the dungeons to create!

While the raid game is mportant, it may simply not justify spending quite that much resources just to ensure to two totally distince and seperate pregession paths. Hence, the 10 man and 25 man version instead. So, at the end of the day, its does boil down to resources and dollars and cents.

They did the same with heroic dungeons and normal dungeons. You might argue that ideally, "heroic" dungeons should be totally seperate content/dungeons created with end level 5 man grouping. But from a resource point of view, it would be too much for them to do. So, you have the normal versions and the "heroic" versions of 5 man dungeons.

In an ideal world, I want seperate dungeons for leveling, another different set for 5 man end level grouping, another different set for 10 men raiding, and a final different set for 25 man raiding also. But Blizzard, even with all the money they are making, are probably not in a position to give us quite that many different distinct dungeon content. Its a question of resources.

 

Veneda

Titles. Custom character visualization adjustments. Custom emotes. Pets. Mounts. Number of options is unlimited.

But I'm not sure if we are reaching core of the problem here. Thing is, there will be still recruits willing to join top guilds - but supply of recruits for middle ground 25 ppl raid forces will deplete again. Some of the people raid mainly to see the content (in terms of "new boss character", not "new boss mechanics") and 10 ppl instances will provide them with that. Additionally, if a solid player from 10 ppl content guild decides to move to "heroic mode", he will be motivated only to join top dogs there - why would he join guild that is doing instance he has finished many times already, while he is already killing next tier bosses in his 10 ppl crack team?

 

Metrosexuelf

Unless I missed something they were pretty clear that they were not going to add another (hero) class over and above Death Knights until the next expansion after WotLK. Considering that is probably three years off and dozens of things can change it is probably a bit early to speculate.

 

Shadout

Other than your point of allowing 'everyone to see Arthas' (maybe we should just imprison the bosses instead of killing them? We could have a Zoo in Shattrath With Illidan and Arthas! It would even allow Blizzard to release them 10000 years later. Win/Win), there is just one good reason: Its easier.

Making a totally different design for an instance, new bosses etc. takes a hell of a lot more time than this strategy. Just see how afraid they are to spend more time on making specific pvp, 10 man, 25 man item designs.

Maybe its not the best way to do things, but probably the most realistic way of having both 25 man and 10 man raid progression going. A 10 man every year is just not going to cut it if you want any real 10 man progression.

Yeah, this is really a point where Blizzard could improve raiding, and make it rewarding without just giving better items.
I could come up with a board on each server for "First kills" , "Fastest kills" (Which also allows later guilds to commpete in raid stacking), "Kill with least amount of healers" and endless other possibilities.

Beside that, they could use the Bear mount idea for plenty of bosses.
Take Brutallus: Give an extra item (from the normal loot list) if people kill him in less than 5:30 min, Add in a special pet, mount or similar if people kill him in less than 5 min.
Could be used for various bosses or even whole instances as it is with ZA.

This sort of timed kills and other challenges would also help making the 10 mans more challenging for those coming from 25 mans.
RandomNPC: "Soo, you can kill Arthas in 10-man, grats. Now go kill him in 5 minutes instead of 10, and you will get the title of "Shadout the pwnerer" or whatever".
(Now some jackass wasting our time in the "10 mans can be harder than 25 mans kkthxbye"-debate will surely argue that if it would be possible to kill Arthas in 5 rather than 10 min, why not make him enrage there instead?! Because Blizzard clearly wants more people to raid 10 mans, so even if it is theoretically possible to make insanely challenging 10 mans, we have all reason to believe they wont do it!)

It surely will. 25 mans will become even more elitist than it is now, and it will be interesting to see how Blizzard will react to it. Make 25-mans even harder since that will be what the remaining 25man raiders want? Or 'nerf' it to allow more to go from 10 man to 25 man, like it is now?
Not sure if they have thought that through yet, if they have, they haven't commented on it at least.
This will kill some 25 man guilds for sure but really, is that an issue in the long run?
Those broken 25 man guilds who cant find recruits will merge with each other etc. and find a new balance. Just like it happened with the 40 man --> 25 man progression.
Many of the 25 man raiders ' staying back' might even be more dedicated, and the 'middle-tier' 25 man guilds might become more coherent, with everyone raiding for the same goal, rather than some raiding for epixxx, other for seeing new content, others again for the challenge, and some for the "first kill" competition (and most probably a bit of it all).

It will be a change, but I doubt it will mean much beside reducing the 25 man player pool. Sure, less players to recruit, but also less guilds recruiting.

 

tmagalhaes

Think you did indeed miss something.
The only thing I recall is then saying that they would take a close look at how the Death Knight works before adding more hero classes. If they would come in a patch or a new expansion was never brought up I believe.

 

Shadout

Really, even if they havent been totally clear about adding new classes through patches, them speaking about class balance, and how it makes sense to screw everything up by adding a new class, because they at the same time had to balance things again due to new skills and talents, points toward only wanting to add new classes with new expansions.

Also, I bet they wont add many new classes tbh, no matter how awesome some of them could be. At some point it gets confusing. 15 different classes would also go against Blizzards strategy of having games thsts somewhat easy to understand the basics of. Just like they don't have 10 different races in their RTS games.

Or having 15+ different classes to chose from in 10 man raid instances?
Currently with the amount of classes its somewhat acceptable for the most 'difficult' (=raid-stacking) 10 man bosses to expect nearly 1 of each class represented.

By only adding them with expansions they make sure it wont spin totally out of control, and nothing they have said so far points toward them doing anything else.

Not refusing the possibility of adding new classes in patches is likely just the usual "Anything can happen"-crap.

 

rhea

I don't think Blizzard will add anymore new classes because of just that, it's too much. Just throwing ideas here: a 3-way real heroclass talent tree, separate to the normal talents. Eg. a mage can be a battlemage (equip a shield, stuff), archmage (aoe frenzy) or magelord (more diverse spells) etc... It could even combine two different classes, a hunter and rogue could both spec demonhunter... Just additions to their normal abilities, sharing important raid abilities over more classes... I could go on forever.

That said, I wouldn't even discuss about them because Blizzard obviously won't add 2 new classes in WOTLK and don't think they have that much even ideas regarding heroclasses. So it really isn't related to this topic except DK.

Here's new nexus stuff: World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King

 

Talgog

Patching in a whole "class" isn't going to happen unless it is an expansion in all but name. Think for a moment what a class entails in its effects on the rest of the game world. If you can't think about those consequences, and I'm sure some of the programmers here would love to jump down your throat for casually suggesting something like this, then you shouldn't say "Oh hey, they could just patch it in."

 

Psonica

Regarding Arthras in a 10 man mode ... is there any indication that you would actually defeat him rather than just face him in this version. What if they made a Majordomo (having a chest spawn with goodies as the fight is over and the boss 'teleport' away (to the 25-man instance)) and added in a Brutallus comment that you should bring 24 of your best friends to have a real go at him. I wouldn't see that as a problem since experienced and well-geared 10-man groups would still be able to fight him and perhaps scratch him a little while it would take a full 25 man raid with exceptional players to defeat him.

 

malthrin

Reposting this from the Benefactor's Bar discussion, as it seems this thread has gone the same place:
The "why is it worth doing 25-mans" question boils down to this: how will doing this more difficult content make me demonstrably superior to people who have not done it?

The obvious parallel is difficulty level in other video games. How am I demonstrably better for beating Halo on Legendary? Umm.. an achievement? Maybe I got to see an alternate ending? These are tiny cosmetic things, and they are not why I did it; I did it because it was there, for a challenge.

I don't really see how WoW is any different. None of us are in Sunwell because we think that this gear will last us forever; it'll be replaced at 80, if not before. We're here because we enjoy the challenge. We'll still be doing 25-mans in WotLK if that's where the challenge is.

 

tmagalhaes

Those are all perfectly valid assumptions, I'm leaning towards the same.
But I was replying to a post that said "[Blizzard] were pretty clear...". And that, they were not.
Yes, looking at the current statements made about class balance one would think that the only reasonable time to add a class would be with a new expansion.

But keep a clear head and don't assume anything unless it's on the live realms.
Some of the WoW Classic class reviews were pretty dramatic, they completely changed the roles some classes played and those were done in patches.
Yes, a class is a lot more than a class review, it includes quests, support NPCs, a lot of design time, itemisation, etc etc.

Basically, while yes, it is highly unlikely that we see a new hero class before the next expasion, lets not set that in stone, blizz has made no statement on the subject and i would not put it pass them to pull something like that out of nowhere if there's a lot of positive feedback on death knights and requests for more classes.

 

f1reburn

On the 1-Up podcast there is more discussion along with interviews with J. Allen Brack and Jeff Kaplan, where all these things are discussed slightly more thorough than the written interviews.

 

Cube

They'll probably allow both 10 and 25-man raids to "kill" him. I think the Metzen interview stated that both 10 and 25 man raids will kill the same things, lore-wise. However, he's far too important a lore character to really die, I think, especially if they want to make Warcraft IV. I think he'll pop up again.

And the lore reason for 10 people not being able to kill him is a bit far fetched, because it took 40 top-geared raiders to kill C'Thun, and Arthas solo'd something that looks like our tentacle spawning old-god overlord. Given that(and considering that Metzen stated that the Lich King is the most powerful entity in the warcraft universe at this time), does even 25 people sound like a good number for any reason other than gameplay?

 

Douglas

It's not the same thing at all -- I'm talking about having you do harder content to unlock easier content for me (or rather, the entire server). The people who did the harder content would, in theory, have no reason at all to do the easier content, ever. The whole point is to ensure that there's a reason to do the harder content, that reason being it's all that's available for starters.

Another way to do it is to skip the "beat the 25-man version first" aspect, and just say that the 25-man version of an instance always opens exactly two months before the 10-man version. So, like, at WotLK launch, there are 5-man heroics and there's 25-man Naxxramas. The 5-man heroics give gear roughly equivalent to T6. 25-man Naxxramas gives T7. And two months later, 10-man Naxxramas opens up and gives gear roughly equivalent to T6, and some folks start raiding that.

 

Psonica