I've no source for this (I believe some Blizzard event anyway) where they showed the number of tradeskill recipes in regular WoW, TBC and finally WotLK. I believe the wotlk number was at several thousands at that point, perhaps someone might remember where this was originally addressed or if I'm totally off the mark here?

The number gave to me the impression that some of the crafts might be automatically (or randomly) generated ("green leather healing chest", "blue leather healing chest", "purple leather healing chest").

Some people like flavor.

Spices are what makes food taste good.

Druids not having an OoC rez is part of flavor of WoW. Seriously, some of us hate this homogenizing thing. One of the things I really liked about WoW is how every class feels different. I love playing a rogue for the energy mechanic, frost mage for the snaring and kiting, warriors for the rage mechanic (but not prot, because no rage = no fun).

I have lots of alts, but I want those alts to be different experiences. I don't want my druid to play the same way my priest does. Because then, what would be the point of me having both?

You must not be looking terribly hard. There have been multiple non-druids in this very thread who see absolutely no issue with druids getting an OOC res straight up, specifically because it unduly handicaps resto druids in 5 man instances. As others have pointed out, an out of combat resurrection spell is just a convenience ability, and attempting to compare it to a class defining ability such as battle res isn't fair to the druids. In a game where the greatest demand is for tanks and healers, making convenience changes that could encourage people to roll a druid (read: potential tank or healer) can only be seen as a net positive.

With regard to stealth runs, not only is the idea of stealthed rogues and druids skipping content to farm bosses talked about much more than it is actually done - except for lower level content that other classes could just power solo through anyway - but Blizzard has lots of ways to make stealth runs impossible without directly nerfing stealth or placing lots of stealth-detecting mobs in instances: Steamvaults has the control panels mechanic and Arcatraz has the meteor-dropping infernals to punish groups of fewer than 5 members. If Blizzard truly considered stealth + ooc res to be too powerful in tandem for one class to have both, they could take steps such as the above to actively discourage stealth runs. In other words, nerf the ability to creatively use the ingame mechanics - don't nerf the mechanics themselves.

Priests and Druids have completely different playstyles, and Druids having an OOC rez won't suddenly make the class identical to a Priest. On the flipside, Priests having a battle-rez may or may not devalue the Druid, but it still won't suddenly make both classes the same.

Ok, so I'm the druid healer in a group with no class with an ooc res. Should I really have to wait for 5-15 minutes with my thumb in my butt for that idiot rogue to run back because he stood in the fire, and I either don't want to waste my battle res or it is on cooldown? What does an out of combat res provide really? One thing, convenience. Personally I'm all for anything which reduces the amount of time I have to spend in the game, where I'm not actually playing the game. If you all die then fair enough, the mobs beat you and you have to pay the penalty and run back, but if you beat the mobs and your healer is still alive, why shouldn't you be able to resuscitate the one or two of your guys who went down.

Druids already can res every 20 minutes, so its not like theres even a lore reason against druids getting an out of combat res.

I'd be all for attaching a res ability to first aid (or something else everyone can get). Lore wise explain it as characters with 0 HP not actually dying until the group wipes. A Tank and three DPS waiting for the healer to run back solo is just as bad as a Druid healer with two corpses doing the same.

There's no need for a lot of things if everybody is careful and plays 100%. Seriously, why do you need to be elitist about this? Single person deaths happen too, not just full party wipes. People will get RNGed and 2-shotted in heroics, even in competent groups. If you tanked during the early/pre-kara stages of TBC, have you consciously omitted the resto druid in favor of holy paladin and stacked mages for sheeps? I seriously doubt many would have done heroic BF or Shattered Halls with a solo resto druid in early TBC. It was ridiculous. It shut resto druids out of a lot of heroic PuGs until the content became old news.

The other counter-argument was that you can bring off-spec ressers. Of course the caveat is that you lose a consistent CC. If you considered an average skill level, it was so much easier to have tank, paladin, 3 mages at heroic SP during early TBC, compared to replacing the mage with an elemental shaman.

But Blizzard did promise to design 5mans to be bite-sized content. That means more Magisters Terrace and less Shattered Halls. This would make the OOC res for druids quite unnecessary. Another rumor I heard about was indoor roots which, although unlikely to be made live, would lessen the need for stacking CCs.

Blizzard have promised that the druids will get indoor roots in WotLK.

"Entangling Roots can now be used indoors as well." --> Alpha realm.


Entangling Roots - "Roots the target in place and causes $o2 Nature damage over $d. Damage caused may interrupt the effect."

Theres no NEED for a summon either, just travel more. Or portals, or the zeppelin, just get rid of the exhaustion system. Convenience is a good thing because it increases your playing time compared to your waiting time in game. My tinfoil hat theory would be that the developers actually know about this but use the "class distinctiveness" and "RP element" arguements because its either a problem on the technical side to implement or on the game content side with not enough inconvenient waiting time.

I know there must be some incentive not to wipe or waste time/resources and usually the incentive is easier to implement as a penalty, but I personally have never met anyone who thought a corpserun is a fun element of the game after they have seen it once.

It's not a fun element, which is why you're supposed to not die. Of course there is no NEED for a summon, which is why it's good that's restricted to only one class.

I'll play a Meeting Stone in the next expansion.

I think the non-combat res is useful especially for the people new to the game. They won't understand aggro, the rogue (or whatever class) might overaggro on a perfectly normal pull, die and force the rest of the party to wait. Do that often enough and the average PUG disbands if they have to wait for a 5-10 minute corpserun every time.

Not every druid healer is a good/experienced player either, they might lose members from their group without wiping completely. That shouldn't be penalized more harshly than other healers, especially considering how HOT mechanics make it quite difficult to save people who overaggro in 5-mans (compared to, say, bop or PW:S). The lack of a ress is tough especially when pushing extremely hard content (5-mans can be hard when undergeared) or simply when trying to come to terms with how the class plays.

Had druid been my first class and I had I not leveled such that I always had a priest with me, I'm not 100% certain I'd have stuck with it for the healing due to the quite restrictive mechanics at the time. Addition of paladins to the horde since then have made it more likely that the group have a res, but I think the core problem remains the same: trying to play resto druid as your first class ever in wow can be quite punishing.

I'm the one that posted the discussed change on the wiki/forum and i'm pretty sure there's no mistakes. The effect-types on those items have not actually changed, only the base values.

As it looks most everything that had 3:1 healing:damage is now 1:1 with ~53% value of the original healing.

I've made a list of most of the changed effects at Wrath of the Lich King: 8391 Changed Healing Effects

Call me old fashion druid, but, I also don't think druid's should get combat rez etiher. Nor do I think that shaman should get any CC, the same way I felt that feral druids should not get a gouge or more stuns. It keeps the game interesting.

But the game does change. For e.g, using other roles was the major strength for druids and a chief strength for shaman/paladins. But this lost importance as wow developed, the class that suffered the most was the druid because it was not given much utility unlike the shaman and paladin because of it's strength in other roles, so when the ability to use your other roles lost it's importance it was left a bit in the dark. Which is why it got more utility, and eventually cat form got some sort of stun. However, although I grudgingly agreed in the end with the cat form stun, I'm glad the stun ability was rather restrictive, it wasn't a gouge, not a stun a gouge effect requiring combo points. Afterall rogues didn't have healing to begin with , but in time, First aid became a secondary profession, and lots of other mechanics were introduced to compensate, so much so that despite having healing the classes that had them became worse off, in particular druid's and priests, whiles those that didn't, in particular rogues simply excelled.

Forward to the WotlLK, and we see more homogenizing, but it is an indication of the continuous evolution of the game. They have at least done it in the right way. I mean, druid's getting flash heals and AoE heals, you can bet shaman will get an HoT and Paladins an HoT and an AoE heal, but like cat forms maim, it would have some restriction or just be a one off and in no way threaten the class who was given supremacy in that specialization, so a large measure of distinctiveness is somewhat preserved.

What does this mean? well, notice that they are getting only one of the new type of spells (only 1 AoE heal to druids, only 1 flash heal too, only 1 HoT to shaman, only 1 HoT and 1 AoE heal to palas), this makes you able to go with any for 5mans and 10-mans without being too knowledgeable of the game, otherwise for 10-man's you'd have to really dig into mechanics, something a casual won't do, and if your content required that much knowledge it becomes in-accessible to all but the persistent or intelligent.

So they've given at least 1 type of the different types of healing to all, but for 25-man raids, you will still have your HoT specialist as the druid resto healer, your spot tank healer as the Pala, your AoE healer as the Shaman and your overall rounded healer as the priest. Raid organisers will still need to use the different classes to their strengths.

In the same way, we shall see Shaman get a CC in WotLK, but it will not be polymorph at all, which is a first rank CC, as is hibernate/shackle/banish but those 3 are heavily restricted unlike polymorph, note that the other CCs locks/druids/priests have are not that good at all - mind control, roots, fear. the next best CC after polymorph is Traps. Again Shaman don't really need CC, having the most utility out of any class in the game, but they will get it as it helps the casuals get groups. They will however get a weak CC, something on the Fear/MC/Roots level and likely involving a totem following the same philosophy, "not supposed to have it b/c of diversity reasons, but we'll give it just one, and with restrictions" afterall shaman do have slows which are good control.

Same thing with AoE, in the druid's case it is surprising the druid didn't come out big on AoE from the start, because in lore almost every spell used by druid's are AoE, however for game mechanics reasons and diversity, only the balance build was given one, now in time as more AoEs were added, they decided to finally fix that by making that druid caster build able to AoE, for in TBC, even paladins have a more useable AoE not being a caster at all. Druid AoE is one area I feel balance druids getting more is fully justified. You also see all priests get an AoE now, following the new direction of having less class restriction for smaller groups. Again for diversity purposes Priests are not an AoE class, they aren't in lore either, but to help even things out, they are getting one, but note, it again has a restriction. No cooldown, but it has to be channelled. Holy Nova is a first class AoE, it is Arcane Explosion that can also heal, however requiring talents, albeit only 11 in holy, shadow priests the primary dps wing don't ever take it so they got mind sear in WotLK. Have you not noticed how inconvenient having a channelled aoe, with a cooldown like Hurricane and no mechanic against pushback so interruptable if you don't have barkskin is? Well Priests have PwS to help that, but Shadowpriests in Shadowform will get pushback immunity, so the only restriction is channelling.

So despite having Mind Sear and Holy Nova (the mechanic of channelling ensure that you only use one or the other, keeping the Priest not really aoe philosophy as best as possible), note that again, the AoE specialist still is the Mage and the Warlock, in 25-man raids, you will need those classes for AoE and they've decided the balance druid will do a bit more catching up. However you can now have shadow priests lend a hand, and shaman who have Fire Nova, Magma totem, Fire Lord and Chain Lightning AoEs. So in 5-mans and even 10-mans, it is not essential to have a mage or lock to aoe, your priest can do that, if that was your dps and your druid, although if they weren't shadow/balance or discipline the damage would be weak. Dps casters can all do it now. Note that although Shaman have 4 AoEs, they are kind of restricted. Chain Lightning is spammable, though restricted to 3 targets, immensly powerful (hence the small cooldown/casttime). Fire Elemental has a long cooldown, Magma totem is the only continuous one at a quarter of the power of Arcane Explosion. As a Shaman, I would in AOE times, pop Fire Lord (unless I was saving him for later), followed by Fire Nova, then Magma totem, and spam chain lightning, my dps is quite good like that, after aoe I switch back to Wrath Totem. Chain lightning may not be a consecrate or arcane explosion, but I end up using it quite alot. Off course help should be given to the problem of the totem easily being destroyed, but note that mages can only do AE when they're AoEing, a shaman can contnuously magma and cast, because it's a totem.

So can you see whiles able to AoE, the only truly restrictionless AoEers would forever be Mages and Warlocks, Balance druids will have Hurricane lose it's cooldown at last, but it's still channelled and marginally better off than warlock's and mages worse AoE, Rain of Fire/Blizzard. So Starfall is a welcome addition, but it has a long cooldown, and balance druids still prone to interruption with no other option after barkskin has ended unless they are being hit triggering owlkin frenzy..better AoE at last but still restricted, at least druid AoE has utility to make up for the poorer damage and restriction, making it useful for AoE encounters, but not the best at AoE. Shaman can expect to get a non-totem AoE in Earthquake, expect it however to have some restriction like cooldown or channelling unless it's low damage in which case it will be called Earth rumble and likely Arcane Explosion like, but I would very much be surprised if it ended up being like consecration unless it's damage was low.

So like Polymorph type CC is the CC holy grail, so too Arcane Explosion is the AoE holy grail. Notice how mages still dominate that scene. Blizzard decided that Warlocks should join in near equal mastery of AoE by TBC. Druids/Locks/Priests have always had CCs, (roots/seduce/banish/MC/Fear/enslave/hibernate) always been there) and although spells like Cyclone, useable traps, wyvern sting, repentance etc have all been added, mages still have the best. Warlocks are added to mages as AoE kings, like hunters are a step below for CC, so too are balance druids for AoEs, but Shaman/Priests also have AoEs and CC. So Shaman will almost certainly get one, restricted because already having slow mechanics (note only mages get full control in polymorph CC, slows, and AoE control)

The conclusion is, yes a certain amount of homogenizing is taking place, however it is to allow more flexibility to smaller groups. Mage still kings of CC despite new shaman cc, hunter traps, roots indoors & cyclone etc, Mages kings of AoE, yes Warlocks have joined them, and Priests too now have more AoE, but so did Paladins and Shaman, at least balance druids catch up a bit. Yes resto druids get Flash heal, Resto Shamans a HoT, Holy Palas a AoE heal and HoT, but Priests still remain the most versatile healers, Druid's the HoT/instant heal masters, Shaman the AoE heal masters and Paladins the spot heal masters. The measure of diversity is still preserved.

So, Druids will likely get an out of combat rez, although I don't think they should, healing based spells aren't normally restricted, unlike CC and AOE spells, so if druids do get an OOC rez, I expect something slightly different. Druids argue that Shaman get self rez AND OOC, so they should get OOC rez, I don't think that is justification at all for druids getting ooc rez, it is the same as Shaman saying druids have roots and cyclone so we should get CC, the classes are different, one has utility bulging out of it, the other has it's strength in application to it's role, the arguement goes back and forth, Druids.."shaman get slows, purge and interrupt also", Shaman.."Druids get an AoE"
and you can pointlessly go on like that forever, glad such arguments are not encouraged here. Blizzard will add things in the game as they fit, no matter if you Shaman see roots,cyclone as unfair and druids see chain heal, purge, slows, interrupts, self rez & ooc rez as unfair.

Imo blizzard has done so far an even better job in WotLK, certain builds truly were not on level and are getting buffs accordingly. Those that had isseus with PvP are getting help, those that had with PvE are getting the help there too. I think it is fair so far and I can wait to see what Shaman/Paladin/Hunters and Rogues get. I fully expect the HoT heal for Shaman and Paladins, the AoE heal for Paladins, a totem based CC for Shaman, Ret paladins will likely get a less restricted Repentance or something else, and shaman get a non-totem based AoE. I expect some sort of Paladin spell that allows the undead/demon only spells to work for a short time on all types of mobs.

A ooc res isn't flavor unless you consider other pointless annoyances like making orcs only able to repair in org, undead in undercity, etc. All it does is open resto druids up to 5 mans that don't include a dps spec priest/shaman/paladin.

It only makes sense in the context of healing and spell damage being separate stats.

You have two factions, so you give one the healing thread and the other one the spell damage thread.

If TBC were designed from the ground up with homogenized gear in mind, we'd probably only see a single thread from Sha'tar or something. The fact that Golden and Mystic Spellthreads will end up the same is simply indicative of the "Game experience may change over time" nature of MMORPGs.

TBh, like root indoors ought to be limited to balance druids, I think ooc rez for druids should be limited to Resto druids only, but then when you think about it roots indoors makes very little difference to feral and resto druids anyway, but genuinely helps balance druids the only druid build that would have time to use it anyway. OOC rez will benefit ALL the specs druids, However the impact of druids getting ooc rez in game is really negligible for all but resto druids (balance druids and Feral druids aren't discriminated against because they can't rez at all, so it again makes little difference to tham).

It wouldn't make druid healers more desirable than non-druid healers, neither would roots indoor make ferals/restos any more desirable than other tanks/healers/melees. Roots indoors would make balance druids more desirable in groups than they are now, which they need to be because they aren't desirable, but it won't make them more desirable than mages/locks in fact it won't make them as desirable as mages period. OOC rez would only make resto druids more desirable than they are for 5-mans..but not give em anything over the others.

Still, in the interest of diversity, I would not give it, however if it is given, which I expect it will be, and for all druids too, I'd enjoy it, and would play my resto druid more often.

Firstly, it is way too premature to whine about Druids getting or not getting an OOC resurrection. This is an alpha build we're talking about (it's not even yet implemented in alpha) and there is always a chance it can be removed.

Do Druids need an OOC resurrection? Yes, they do. That's not really a point of argument – semantics and "flavor" are relatively baseless arguments. If you played a Resto Druid back when heroics were important, you already know they need an OOC resurrection. As any Resto Druid could tell you, lacking the resurrection ability sometimes felt like it caused you to get turned down for almost as many heroics as you actually were able to go to, particularly the longer heroics like Shattered Halls or any Coilfang heroic.

Back in MC days, the fact that I could stealth and have a res got us loot from Rag once.

We wiped immediately after killing Rag on a failed pre-sons attempt(he was around 5% when he submerged, we weren't in position to handle the sons, etc.), and didn't have a SS or anything up-it was all popped to keep the tank up. He died, we wiped, and I had to stealth through the place and rebirth a priest so they could res everyone.

I really don't have a problem with an OOC rez for druids... except for the fact that it means I'll actually have to work during wipe recovery... :P

Shamans, Paladins, Rogues and Hunters have all not yet been implemented into the Alpha.

If it's really that "homogenizing" for druids to get an OOC rez on top of battle rez, then Blizzard could just have the OOC rez put battle rez on cooldown whenever it's used, so that there's some element of choice involved in whether to use the new OOC rez.

I'm saying that druids have enough equivalent abilities to other healers (Direct heals, HoTs, and AoE heals), so maybe druids should start getting more rogue-equivalent abilities? Paladins only have direct heals, shamans don't have HoTs, maybe they could get a battle rez to counterbalance druid healers.

So, your assertion is that healing from Flourish/Tranquility is somehow different than the healing from CoH or Chain Heal? Please expand more on this point.

If it makes no difference, then you won't mind giving rez ability to warriors, mages, rogues, etc?

Why are you grouping with idiots in the first place? If I go with a pug to MgT, and wipe repeatedly, I would blame my group for being terrible, instead of my class for not having enough tools to save the run.



Congratulations on missing the point. Battle rez is just an example. It's a balance issue. Healers specs/classes, right now, are pretty balanced. What we're saying is, fine, if you give druids a new, spammable AoE heal and an OoC rez, then maybe you should give other healing classes a bone. Right now, druids are shaping up to be one of the best healers in WotLK, with HoTs, direct heals, and aoe heals. To balance that, give shamans/paladins the equivalent of a battle rez, an innervate, etc. Doesn't really matter what it is, just give other healers something.