I guess I'll add to the chorus that all this debating about Alpha(or even pre Alpha) spells, abilities, etc is just pointless. It's great to discuss new things, but this has gone past that in my opinion.

What I do find amusing is so much tit-for-tat arguing and class redesigning, "if Druids get this then class X should get that", it's starting to feel like the WoW forums.

It's really not...

It's known that Blizzard higher-ups read these forums and consider ideas posted here (See: C'thun fix, Consumables fix, et al), and the F&F Alpha is extremely small for good reason. The chance that they'd have TCers in it of the Aldriana, Kalman, Vontre, Binkenstein ilk is pretty low.

In this case, leaks actually help Blizzard, because we can point out obvious lapses of judgement, to avoid things like the Rogue 41pt Combat talent that initially looked as though it decreased DPS (Now known to increase DPS, but just barely).

Granted, if Blizzard wanted the information publicly available, they'd *Probably* make it public, but in this case they have plausible deniability in that "That information wasn't ready for release to the general public just yet, I don't know how you got it, it was alpha and under an NDA. We've already fixed it. Move along, there's nothing to see here".

Sorry, I really should have quoted for context. My statement was aimed at the Druid out of combat resurection argument, I certainly did not mean the entire thread.

Even so, most of the 'most useful' threads here have been either derails or based on extremely broad individual topics.

Case in point: Pre-Burning Crusade, right as Naxx came out, there was a thread about "Design your own T3", because many people were disappointed in the itemization of the tier 3 pieces. Two weeks later, Tier 3 became good.

In the case of a Druid OOC rezz, I personally dislike having a druid as main-healer for that exact reason in 5-mans. If someone randomly does something stupid and dies (and don't be a jerk, everyone has to PUG when they first hit the level cap), it wastes 10-15 minutes of the group's time running back to start clearing again.

It's definitely a valid topic of discussion, especially given the indications pointed out that it might be in the cards.

Speaking on a more meta basis about class balance, one of the things you have to keep in mind is that giving something to another class does not take away from your class. The concept is called "balance", but it is really a misnomer - the real objective is to have classes that are equally desired for the roles they are to perform, and for bonus points you desire a mix of classes as they synergize well.

I would say its totally premature to call any ability game breaking or stupid until at least we see the concepts for the rest of the classes. Sure, the druid changes are pretty fundamental and amazing looking - but until we see them in action, and have the other class changes to compare them to, we really do not know how they will work out in practice. Even fundamental changes - like OOC rez - are fruitless discussion until at least the concepts are out for all the classes.

Looking back at TBC, lifebloom was a perfect example, or even the swipe as it was in late beta - both were solid changes on paper, but only got underpowered or overpowered with scaling to where the encounters and gear were at 70. These abilities were tweaked many times to bring them into alignment over the long haul, and are now useful but not overpowered in today's environment - and definitely in line with the "on par" abilities of the other classes in that role, modified by role specialization.

Useful discussion or not, can we tone down the balance arguments until more information is released/leaked?

And, for all those mentioning a "spammable AOE heal for druids", did you fail to note that it was a HOT? You really do not get much efficiency out of a hot if you spam it.

Back when people were doing longer dungeons like blackrock depths and the like, there was a real difference between being able to res the entire group or just one person because you had trash respawn behind you. Running back meant reclearing the whole place. You also usually ran with two healers, so there was almost always a non druid healer anyway.

Since TBC, the dungeons are short enough that reclearing is rarely if ever an issue due to long respawn timers. Essentially lacking an out of combat res in 5 mans just means that you waste time running back. It doesn't add challenge, it doesn't add strategy, you merely spend more time recovering. I don't get turned down for groups because I don't have a regular ressurect, I just spend more time on the run than if I had one.

Convenience is good. Recovering from wipes in raids will be faster now which is also good. If you prefer flavor over convenience that's an argument you can make, but this is hardly an issue of balance.

The easy way to "balance" an OOC rez for druids is to give it a very very short range. That would make it difficult to do the "stealth-rezzing" people are so afraid of.

Hell I'd settle for trainable mana tide (with a real 31 point resto talent in its place), and undispellable earth shield.

It won't have to be instant. OOC resurrections in Arena are "win more" abilities. The only way you can possibly rez someone in Arena is if your opponents are incredibly stupid, or if the rest of your team is able to keep your opponents busy for 10 seconds anyway.

They could give every class a 10-second resurrection spell and it would not impact Arena at all.

This isn't true. If you lump in things like +haste gear, procs, Bloodlust, Berserking, you can definitely get off OOC rezzes in arena --especially 2v2. In a situation where it's down to a 1v1, I can see Roots->Rez working out.

I don't think it's that big a deal though.

How many people actually get resurrections off in an arena setting? If you can't stop a 10 second cast that requires them to be out of combat, odds are you probably weren't going to win anyways.

I like this solution, it addresses all the current complaints without being overly complicated. Give it a 10 yard range maybe.

Goodness, yes please. I like the idea of a point-blank first aid rez for every class. Wipe recovery is a dumb mini-game.

Even if someone was able to get a rez off in an arena setting, the rezzer will find themselves severely mana drained and the resurrected opponent will have essentially 0 health or mana; any small amount of burst will bring them down.

The simple solution to all of this is just disallow the use of rez spells in the arena. It's not as if anyone uses them anyways right now.

All they have to do is make jumper cables BoE. Of course, then there would be a lot more in raid "battle" rezzing, with Rogues vanishing, Hunters feigning and Mages invising etc. It would really upset a lot of raid encounters.

I like the idea of Ressurect as a first-aid ability. It's universally accessible, not quite 'free,' and most importantly completely consistent with the game universe.

Re: rezzing in arena

Without actively trying to derail the thread, I can tell you this is definitely false. Giving druids a rez however will not be a negative thing, it will only put all of the healers onto the same level playing field with regards to recovery which can only be good.

Our 5v5 team got off lots of resses even at 2000 rating, so it is indeed a balance factor there and is something they would have to factor in.

So you're saying his argument is incomplete because ooc rez allows you an inferior way of doing things in 1v1 such as stopping a mage from drinking (as opposed to just HITTING HIM) and getting a druid out of stealth rather than waiting in bear form where you'll take less damage. Yeah, he's the one with the incomplete arguments.

Easy fix for anything OOC in arena...simply have everyone go 'in combat' as soon as the arena doors open, and stay in combat until the game is over. Period. End of discussion. This, incidentally, would also take away the problem of people eating or drinking OOC in arenas.

I don't know. It's possible to take this argument too far. For example, what about mages being able to conjure food/water. That's certainly a convience, and if you're in a dungeon/raid and run out of water (or forgot to buy some), it's a big hassle without a mage.

Should Blizzard give another class the ability to generate food/water?

Jumper cables aren't bound right now anyway, and the cooldown is bound to the player, not the item. Have 5 engineers in raid, but one set of cables? Pass it between the engineers until it works.

EDIT: Also, vanish-rezzes haven't worked since, oh, I want to say February/March pre-BC.

I think you just hit on one of the most potentially alarming things that could happen with Inscriptions - namely that you're looking at PVP vs PVE setups - and if these things work just like Gems (placing an inscription over one destroys the old) this will potentially make it exceedingly difficult for people to do both high end raiding and high end PVP.

Granted, any of that is pure speculation at this point (in terms of scope and actual effect of the inscriptions). The main difference between this and the previous split we have is that with gear, you can build up a set for PVP and a set for PVE, but with inscriptions, you're socketing yourself (the player). Really, this means that things like a Subtlety Inscription would be huge for PVE (potentially) and useless in PVP. A knockback Inscription is great for PVP but of limited use in non-solo PVE. Damage is great in all settings, but the level of min-maxing that can occur between the two...

I am eagerly anticipating seeing more of the inscriptions to really be able to start theorycrafting away.

I'm also continuing to hold out hope (not that they will, but hey...) that they decide to either move Gathering Professions to Secondary Professions OR create a third type of profession called "Gathering" which allows you to only pick one. Gathering Professions only provide Money/Fill the Auction House, which, while nice, is just plain not equivalent to a full on Profession. Not sure if / when they'll get around to revamping that system, but I think the best approach is giving everyone one gathering "slot". It would be a nerf to the double gatherers out there (Mining/Skinning is something I've done with alts) but really it would just make it so that the market wouldn't be absurd on those mats and would allow more flexibility in choosing your real professions.

Considering that Inscription, Jewelcrafting, Blacksmithing, Leatherworking, Tailoring, Enchanting, Alchemy and Engineering brings that current total of crafting skills up to 8, it seems very reasonable to allow for the flexibility to take two and get a gathering profession.

My raiding guild recently died half way through hyjal so I've put raiding on the back burner and I've been levelling a shaman. Often when looking for an instance group you'll be lucky to find a tank, a healer and 3 dps online in the relevant level range, let alone being able to pick and choose competent players. A perfectly composed raid-equipped consumable popping guild run is a distant dream and in reality you have to go with what you can get. What would you do then? run no instances from 1-69 and then tag along to 10/25 man raids in your levelling greens leeching badges and disenchant-status epics?

As for the only possible balance effect of this this druid ooc, arena ressing, you could just ban it from arena, like they have already done with rebirth.