flyingtoastr

Short answer: ret scales with both.

Long answer: our entire class scales with both.

All of our specs require us to hit things. Our baseline class is melee oriented. We don't have any spell nuke to take the place of melee swings, so every spec requires as a baseline melee stats.

Now look at other things:

Consecration- spell damage/spell hit
Exorcism- spell damage/spell hit
Seal of Command- spell damage/weapon damage/melee hit
Hammer of Wrath- spell damage/melee hit
Judgement of Command- spell damage/spell hit
Judgement of Blood- spell damage/melee hit
Crusader Strike- weapon damage/melee hit
Avenger's Shield- spell damage/melee hit

Etcetera.

I'm talking about the class as a whole, not specs. We need our combat system revised badly, its everywhere right now.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

urotas

They removed the new 10% armor talent for druids in the latest alpha. It's fun to speculate, but we don't really know what they're thinking of doing. If the generic leather pieces don't have any extra armor, druids would have significantly less extra armor in WotLK compared to BC. If they're planning on doing away with crushing blows, losing some of that armor advantage may not be so terrible, though.

I think it would be far easier to make protection paladins use the same tanking plate as deathknights and warriors. Apart from spelldamage for paladins, you're basically using all the same stats, and using completely different stats to holy paladins. You could make strength available in all tanking plate, give protection paladins a strength->spelldamage conversion, and greatly increase the amount of block value gained from strength. This way they could eliminate block value as a separate stat in gear entirely, since deathknights won't be gaining anything from it. This would also make strength far better for protection warrior threat generation.

 

Prinsesa

You'd always need a conversion talent regardless of where you want to take things:

STR or AP to spell damage to make Warrior tanking gear compatible with Prot Paladins
STR or AP to (healing-viable amounts of) spell damage to make DPS plate gear compatible with Holy Paladins

Judgement of Command, Judgement of Blood, Exorcism, Consecration and Hammer of Wrath (don't laugh) all scale exclusively with spell damage.

Seal of Command scales as 70% weapon damage AND 20% spell damage coefficient.

Seal of Blood scales as 35% weapon damage and Crusader Strikes scales as 110% weapon damage.

All of these abilities are used by Ret.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

flyingtoastr

Not true. If they really did take this all the way (make our class completely scale with Attack Power) I would forsee healing spells that gain an AP modifier rather than a +Healing modifier. For example, instead of Consecration VI getting 95% of your spell damage added to it you would get something like 40% of your Attack Power in bonus damage. Its not a terrible stretch, we've seen some DK "spells" that act exactly as such.

If they wanted to keep the trees like they are now yes there would have to be a conversion somewhere. I would hope that they just scrap what we're using now and start fresh though.

EDIT: Just to clarify, this is all academic. I doubt anyone believes Blizzard will redesign an old and beat up class when they're busy selling how amazing their shiny new one is. My guess is that we will see an AP > SD conversion in deep ret and not too much else (along with our awesome 51-point Holy AoE res talent).

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

panny

Okay, that makes sense, but changing (or correcting) these skills to use the right type of hit mechanic should fix this right? Spell/melee hit/crit/haste being merged together fixes this.

I think I understand the point about the class being melee based (as a healing Druid/Priest/Shaman will use spells to kill things opposed to a healing Paladin still having to hit things). This is more of an accident due to the change to +healing giving free +spelldamage and I guess I don't see the big deal if the intended gear still good for your spec.

I mean, it's true a Holy Paladin's damage is primarily based on his melee (is it?) but does this matter outside a group. A Prot Paladin uses melee hits to build threat, but surely the main source of threat is reflective damage/consercrate? Does it matter that a Ret Paladin's Judgements scale with spellpower when the majority of his damage scales with AP (I'm mostly thinking of pre 2.3 shaman Shocks here)?

I don't see the problem with separating the class into specs when deciding which primary stat the character scales with (AP or spellpower).

Fix Spirit Wolves not responding to commands.
DK/Rogue

 

flyingtoastr

If I'm doing a full rotation (basically a maximized DPS/M rotation for say a Brut Fight like so: Crusader Strike/Judgement of Command VI/Exorcism VII/Consecration IV while autoattacking things to death with Seal of Command up) my spell damage scaling abilities (Consecration, Exorcism, JoC and SoC) make up about 25% of my total damage. Its not a majority of my damage but it is much more than (for example) shocks make up for enhancement shamans and a fair portion of my DPS.

For a holy pally on the other hand most of his damage is from spell damage, yes. However, to get Seal procs he still must actually hit the mob, meaning he does need some sort of melee stats combined with spell stats.

Its simply the problem that by making certain spells (e.x. Consecration) scale with one stat (spell damage/hit in this case) you're making it close to useless to the other spec because they're using the exact opposite type of scaling. If all our actual DPS abilities scaled with AP for ret Holydins would be screwed and vice-versa.

Its a bit different for say Shamans since your spell damage scaling ability (Lightning Bolt) can replace your autoattack. With the way Seals work we're always stuck swinging at things and we'll always need some sort of melee stats to DPS in a raid setting (why shockadins suck: they need spell hit for Holy Shock but melee hit at the same time for Seal of Righteousness).

Incidentally this is why I forsee an AP > SD dump in ret. Combined with the consolidation of the different rating mechanics it would somewhat band-aid our combat system.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Oaken

I'm guessing that for some class/spec combinations, being taken off of your own loot table like you are today and mixed into a broader loot table is going to be a bit of a shock. Mages/warlocks/shadow priests have long made up a large volume of raids and seemed to have relatively few drops compared to the percentage they comprised in terms of actual raiders. We use a bid-based dkp system in my guild and caster dps gear goes for insanely high amounts relative to comparable pieces for the smaller groups. Dps Warriors, feral Druids, and a few others tended to be one-to-a-raid and had very little competition for their drops. Blizzard always seems to enjoy creating lots of dps plate for example, surprisingly large numbers of drops given the relative population of dps'rs actually in raids who can wear plate.

So, in short, its better for loot rot across the entire raid. But not better for some individual class/spec combinations.

 

Finkum

I'm still of the view that gear homogenisation is just plain silly. Reading the immediately preceding discussion about how to mangle paladin mechanics so that they can operate off a single gearset gives you one good idea why this is so (which is not to say that necessarily I think paladin mechanics are fine, but that is a separate issue).

The problem is NOT that each spec requires differently itemised gear; the problem is (and always has been) that 1) a significant proportion of drops are itemised such that they are optimal for no spec and 2) there hasn't been, prior to Sunwell, a way to turn drops that, while well-itemised, are unnecessary (due to the current raid composition/previous drop history/etc) into drops that are necessary.

Sensible, already well-accepted ways to mitigate or solve these problem are 1) better item design (duh) and 2) the inclusion of badge gear, tokens, sunmote turn-ins, reputation rewards, even t0.5-esque questlines, etc. A significant proportion of the 'What if all loot were badge loot?' thread discusses solutions that try to satisfy the requirements of fairness, practicality, and lore.

Gear homogenisation is a much riskier and more complex solution to 2). It necessitates either the reworking of a lot of existing talents and skills in a generally unweildy manner so that each spec can transform the homogenised stats back into the stats that are actually useful for them, or (more worryingly) the alteration of class skills such that they can benefit from the raw stats equally (loss of class/spec differentiation).

Additionally it has the follow-on effect of reducing the ability to customise your toon's appearance (bar the introduction of the much-requested "armor dye") and stats (unless every piece of gear sports multiple sockets). This is a non-trivial concern for many people, myself included. The irritation currently expressed at the similarity between the appearance of PvE tier and arena gear will only be exacerbated if all users of a given armor type appear the same outside of their tier gear.

Still, as is mentioned at least once a page, this is only the alpha, so I can but hope that Blizzard will yet repent and adopt a less radical approach to loot wastage.

 

Zaphid

Do you guys know that you just created 3+pages of posts based on something that might very well be datamining error ?

Reducing the amount of loot is desirable to some level, however i don't think we will see something like redoing 1/3 of existing items to fit the new formula, i for one can cope with the perceived lack of healers quite well, becvause it also means that when you get one, he probably knows how to play and isn't one of those "hai guyz i just respecced" people. The fact that you can't evaluate ones abilities by gear because it lets him spec anything and i have nothing else to evaluate him by could be the death of many PuGs.

 

Lamaros

You obviously haven't paid that much attention to the the discussion that has been talking place here, otherwise you would realise that the issues you have are well... lets take a look:

1. Bad itemisation is bad itemisation, and isn't really the point of this discussion. Bad equipment won't be used whatever system is in effect.

2. Item design currently does, or has in the past, resulted in items which are desirable by only one class or spec, or very few classes or specs. When that loot has dropped and those classes/specs already have it or aren't present then that loot is wasted. The proposed homogenisation will deal with this issue along the same lines of tokens and badge gear.

2a. You will note in the "What is all loot were badge loot?" that some people don't like the idea of making every single piece of gear in the game token or badge loot. Homogenisation is one way to address this issue without going down a "no actual loot in dungeons" road.

3. Homogenised gear will be less likely to be poorly itemised, as designers won't have to try and keep 30+ different possibilities in their head but can design around some basic principles and leave the class/spec adjustment to the class/spec balance. This should be a boon to itemisation.

It's not as hard as you think. Make all healing gear +damage gear? Just adjust the healing spell coeficients for the difference between old +healing and the new +damage. Considering all the balance change, new talents, etc that is going on with WotLK this is not the big issue you think it is.

This is just flat out wrong. If there is a warlock drop, a mage drop and a priest drop and I am a warlock I will pick the first. All warlocks will, and we'll all look the same. If there is a DPS caster drop #1, a DPS caster drop #2, and a DPS caster drop #3 then all of a sudden I have three items to wear, not 1. Combine that over every slot and you will find that the possible gear combinations for Mages, Warlocks and Priests is all of a sudden far far higher, not less.

In fact, this solution helps this is a way that your preferd situation does not. More badge and tier gear designed for specific classes means that specific classes will only be wearing their badge and tear gear, which will all look the same.

I'm glad Blizzard is designing things and not you, because you can't even see the contradictions in your own position.

e: If by "mangle" Paladin mechanics you mean 'fix' then yes you have a poi... wait, why wouldn't you want them to fix Paladin mechanics? Do you dislike Paladins that much?

 

Prinsesa

I welcome gear homogenization if only because it makes the pack-rat aspect of the game far less stressful. Currently, I have two 20-slot bags, two 18-slot bags and seven more 18-slot bags in my bank, yet I rarely have more than 10 empty slots for loot going into a dungeon.

Between PvP Healing, PvE Healing, PvP Ret, PvE Ret and Prot sets (with dozen different max threat, block or HP pieces, plus resist gear), I had to get ItemRack and a name-searchable bag system to stop myself from going a bit nuts, and I STILL have no idea what I'm going to do with all this stuff once I start replacing them in WOTLK.

I do agree that there is a line though - designing an entire healing subspec to use melee stats instead? That's a huge exception to add onto the piles and piles of junk that's clogging up WoW's spellcasting system.

That being said, I have nothing against redesigning the Paladin class as a whole if that brings better unity to our stat allocation, but keeping the current system and applying progressively larger and larger band-aids to it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth indeed.

It's not an isolated item with the adjustment. Wikidot found dozens of healing mods being changed to spell damage mods, all of which correspond with current TBC items.

And yes, they already did redo a third of all existing items when they implemented the "33% of healing is spell damage" change, this is not fundamentally different.

Finally, pardon me if I find your final remark about "PuG evaluation" to be extremely shortsighted and biased. You're supposed to measure people based on their performance, not on their gear nor their spec. Yes, there are some warning signs that can tip you off about a bad player, but even a star toon has to start from the basement, and if having basement gear automatically excludes you from participating, how are you supposed to get better?

I don't kick people because they try to heal me with a [Gladiator's Spellblade] and 30 points in Shadow. I kick people because they get me killed on the first pull of Slave Pens with 1 mob CC'd.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Finkum

I have in fact been following the discussion for some time; there is no need to be rude. Your whole post struck me as unnecessarily adversarial.

Addressing each of your points in turn:

1) You will notice I mention this only in passing. I agree that it is not the main issue at stake here.

2) No one is disputing that some drops are wasted/useful only once etc. I mentioned other ways that this can be addressed without gear homogenisation.

2a) Nowhere did I say that all loot should be badge loot. The thread encompasses many possibilites other than just badges/tokens, despite its name.

3) The item designers are clearly capable of making well-itemised items NOW (see the majority of Sunwell loot as an example). It's really not that hard. I am inclined to think regarding recent loot that poor itemisation, where it exists, is a result of developer bias (mages are supposed to need spirit damnit!), rather than incompetence.

This is an example of where homogenisation is easy. Spell crit and spell hit are examples of where it is hard(er).

Within reason, an abundance of different stats makes gear choice more interesting. There are of course places where this is not true (spell hit/melee hit mechanics for paladins are a good example). I am not opposed to combining stats where there is good cause, but I am opposed to combining stats just so that everyone who uses a particular armor type can make some use of every piece of armor of the said type.

No. Realistically one of two things will happen:

1) One set of e.g. bracers will be vastly superior to all the others (one with 3 sockets, a good spread of stats, whatever) and everyone will want them. Others will be used only until this uber ser of bracers is available.
2) Some bracers will be stronger for particular classes (e.g. ones with heavy spirit and damage, low crit will appeal to holy priests). Things will work similarly to the way they do now, with the disadvantage that the items will be usable by many classes/specs, but designed specifically for none.

Additionally, if (as seems likely) gear homogenisation is also intended to reduce loot table bloat, then we can expect fewer sets of bracers being available per tier.

At the moment, all priests look (somewhat) alike within a tier (discounting tier gear). Assuming 1) above, all four casters will look alike, making the situation worse. If 2), then things will proceed similarly as they do now (except that, as mentioned, there will likely be fewer bracer drops in toto for all cloth users than there is currently).

Again, no need to be rude. You read as if you have some personal grudge against me. My interpretation of how matters will stand is not contradictory within itself.

I don't know how else to express the proposed AP -> +heal conversion other than mangling. It makes no sense logically or lore-wise. It's changing class mechanics to suit gear, rather than developing gear to suit mechanics, which is basically what my whole issue with gear homogenisation is.

 

Prinsesa

You're exactly right. If gear homogenization pushes through, then loot tables become less bloated.

If loot tables become less bloated, then given the occurrence of your point #1, it will be much easier for those classes to actually acquire the "best" bracer.

Consider [Wristbands of Divine Influence] vs. [Bracers of Martyrdom]. Both are in T6 content (and in fact there's a 3rd healing bracer that's craftable. The Bracers are absolutely better than the Wristbands from the extra socket.

Let's assume for a moment that both bracers still exist, but all the other loot was trimmed down from homogenization. Everyone would pick the Bracers, taking only the Wristbands if the Bracers weren't available. However, since Rage's loot table would be smaller, your chances of getting the Bracers would be higher.

In the end, that's still a good thing.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Finkum

Well I agree that where examples such as that you mention you exist (two items designed for a single class/spec, with near-identical types of stats but one being better than the other because of a slot, better weightings etc), then the additional bracers might as well be removed to reduce bloat. I also agree that this is a good thing.

However, loot homogenisation goes further than this and merges [Bracers of Martyrdom] and [Cuffs of Devastation] and turns them into something that has to be at least minimally useful for all mages, warlocks, and priests, regardless of spec.

This is the part I don't agree with, for the reasons I have outlined above.

 

Shakes

I don't think the aim is to merge those two items, I think it is to make the DPS one as good for a holy priest as the Wristbands are. In other words, not best in slot for that tier, but certainly something you'd wear if you didn't have the other.

 

Lamaros

I wasn't intending to be rude, though my post was adversarial. Hard to aviod when I strongly disagree with you.

I know, I suggested some myself. However they are general badge/token-esque or have similar drawbacks to this homogonised suggestion.

Or perhaps they've just learned? Either way this isn't the main point or my main problem.

Again, compared to the rebalancing of the game with 10 new levels and 10 new talents points and x new talents, and a new class and everything it's not really a big deal. Really.

This makes no sense really. And abundance of different stats is only interesting if there is lots of different gear that uses different stats that you want. If you have 50 stats yet everyone just wants y of each stat then the fact there are lots of stats is mostly pointless, everyone will just get the gear that has the best combination. Better to have a couple of simple stats that people actually use in different ways than a whole bunch of stats that everyone uses identically.

Except for all the badge, token, and other such gear? Or the odd piece that is still specifically designed for a certain class/spec? No one is saying do away with badge and token sets. They'll still be around.

You see to have the impression that homogenising gear in this way will mean that everyone will want the same gear overall. This is not necessarily true. Some classes might want a little more stamina than int, and some a little more +damage than spirit. So let us consider some examples:

A warlock wants 3stam, 2int, and 1spirit, generally speaking.
A mage wants 1stam 3int and 2 spirit, generally speaking.
A priest wants 1stam 2int and 3spirit, generally speaking.

We have three chest pieces. One has 2 stam, one has 2 int, one has 2 spirit, and one has 1 stam and 1 spirit.
We have three leg pieces. One has 2 stam, one has 2 int, one has 2 spirit, and one has 1 int and 1 spirit.
We have three head pieces. One has 2 stam, one has 2 int, one has 2 spirit, and one has 1 stam and 1 int.

So the warlock might get pieces 1 for the chest, 3 for the leg and 3 for the head. Or 3 for the chest, 1 for the leg and 2 for the head. Etc...

This is an abstract example. It's just aimed to demonstrate that you can have homogeny in stats and gear, but if you give those who use the gear different requirements then they can still have different gear. Between each other and between those of the same class.

Just because you have shared stats doesn't mean the designers will just design one drop and leave it at that. They'll just design the same (or more; as I have said before) number of drops which will be usable to more people. So you can get bracer x, y, or z instead of hanging out for z and z only.

As the example above demonstrates, this is not necessarily so.

 

Fiola

Forcing a melee class to scale only with caster stats is logical? Would it make sense to you if caster classes were forced to scale only with melee stats? (AP coefficient for Fireball/Shadowbolt!)

What's the logic in making a class scale with stats NOT provided on their gear? It's as if Rogue Eviscerate and Hunter pets scaled off Str, ignoring the fact that neither class wears armor with Str on it. (such changes would be "logical", but neither is desirable)


You mentioned that Blizzard should be "developing gear to suit mechanics". Paladins used to have gear fit to our mechanics, in the old Str/+SD gear. You'll notice that that gear no longer exists. That category of armor got removed from the game, and it's (probably) not coming back. The only reason why AP->healing is being considered is because the gear being developed is moving away from paladin class mechanics.

If Blizzard's not going to make the gear for the existing mechanics, than the next best option is to change the class to fit the existing gear.



I honestly don't care what Blizzard settles on - but whatever solution they choose, it should address the core issues with current paladin mechanics + itemization:

1.) All abilities should scale with gear. AP increases hunter ranged damage and pet damage. +SD increases both healing and damage of healing/DPS Shaman/druids/priests. AP increases Enh. damage and healing and spellcasting. Etc. It's the exact same idea as Priests getting +dmg built into their healing gear. The gear doesn't have to scale all abilities equally - but all abilities should scale by some amount.

2.) The gear should scale the entire class. My character's class is paladin, not "Ret" or "Holy" or "Prot". I understand that they may decide to continue the current paradigm of things. But "Hybrid" should not mean "soaks up 4~5x more loot than other classes and requires respecs to fill different roles". That does not make me want to play a hybrid when I have alts who can fill the same role as a specialist.

 

Prinsesa

I'd like to think the basic framework is already there. Let's look at the [Cuffs of Devastation]:

1. Holy/Disc Priests: Nothing is wasted on the Cuffs. Spell crit is the least valuable stat, but is minimally useful for Inspiration and Divine Aegis (healing crits shield the target for percent of the amount healed).

2. Shadow Priests: Again, no wastage. Spell crit is still the least valuable stat, but is again minimally useful given Pain and Suffering (reduces SW: D self-damage), Twisted Faith (increases MB and SW: D damage per DOT on the target), Shadow Power (increases MB and SW: D crit damage bonus) and Improved Spirit Tap (MB and SW: D crits cause a mini-Spirit Tap effect).

3. Mage: No wastage at all. I don't think this requires a full breakdown.

4. Warlock: No wastage. SPI is probably the least valuable stat, but is minimally useful for regen via Fel Armor as opposed to 100% useless.

Other caster stats: Spell haste isn't wasted on any of the clothies, although the usefulness varies. Spell Hit is the big loser here, since it's still 100% useless for healing, but that will probably lead to healers buulding a 2nd hit-less set using items like the Cuffs as opposed to [Focused Mana Bindings]

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Finkum

Using these example weightings, there will remain 1 excellent choice per slot per class. In which case there is no reason to homogenise gear at all - you might as well leave things the way they are now.

This is my point, which I fear I am explaining badly.

Either classes and specs will still prefer different stat weights, and possibly different stats, in which case they are best served by some approximation of the existing system where each class/spec has an item specifically designed for them. Note that this is independent of the difficulty of getting said item, which we all agree can be severe and needs to be adjusted somehow (be it via turn-ins, reputation items, badge rewards or whatever).

Alternately each class and spec will want the same stats - either because the classes have been reworked to all gain similar benefits for a given stat, which leads to a lessening of class distinction; or because additional talents/skills have been added to turn undesirable stats into desirable ones, which is in my view clumsy and moreover very involved for some classes, notably paladins.

Obviously there is room for compromise here - shadow priests and affliction locks, for example, already share similar itemisation weights. Where homogenisation can be obtained without sacrificing class distinction or introducing clumsy (e.g. AP->healing) conversion talents I'm all for it.

 

Witchsong

I really can't be arsed with trying to find out whether the stuff you discuss is based on facts or is just your own ideas.

We know that in WotLK, there will be changes to itemization...

- Retribution Paladins, Death Knights and Warriors will share the same gear.
- Healing changes imply that caster items will be only +damage, and the coefficient of the healing spells will be increased.

Also, Blizzard have apparently said that the druid will be more focused around the restoration tree again in WotLK.

That's the stuff we KNOW as far as I know. Unless someone dug up something new?

Also, the new caster item system makes it possible for discipline priests to gear up for crit and spirit (spirit will be a valuable stat, finally, probably much more present on non-healer gear too), while at the same time keeping a normal amount of healing power. Basically, it will be much easier to choose the stats you want, which obviously is expanding on the socket-idea.

 

Ellyh

Actually for some casters, eg holy priests and affliction locks spell crit is almost entirely wasted.

Based on what I have seen so far in the talent trees I suspect there will be 2 basic types of gear in cloth.

Type A will have hit and crit and haste and some sockets

Type B will have Haste and either more power or regen (spirit mana/5) and sockets.

Thus the type A gear will go to mages and SB spamming locks, maybe disc priests, and they will socket for more hit/crit/power/regen as they see fit.

Type B gear will go to holy priests, shadow priests and afflocks as for these specs crit is by far the worst stat to get and they will socket for either regen, spell hit or power as they see fit.

Leather and Mail is going to be in the same boat e.g. boomkin love crit and trees think it sucks wholesale

If they are really serious about homogenising the gear they rely entirely on sockets/enchants to deal with the varying desires for hit/crit/regen and simply put a base of haste, power and int/spirit/stam on all items. This would be really really boring to my eye but would make itemisation much simpler for the devs.

As for the paladin gear question I think that making everything for pallies scale off melee stats is a good idea as pally gear is already an oddity within the current system. When you think of the archetypal paladin from legend you think of a baddass holy warrior smiting things with his shining longsword while wearing heavy armour. You don't think of some kind of caster/melee hybrid who runs on mystic power.

 

Finkum

Well if you presuppose that what I suggest can't happen then obviously yes other solutions are preferable. If I understand you correctly you're saying we can solve a problem by doing A or B, but A isn't a possibility so we have to make do with B, which doesn't really address the issue of whether A or B is better in the abstract (which is what I have been discussing).

My view is that a paladin is essentially three different classes. There are basically zero common actions between a holy pally and a prot one, outside of blessings. Your spec basically is your class. To me, the benefit of being a hybrid is not that you can perform multiple roles with the same set of gear (+ a respec); it is only that you can perform multiple roles without having to reroll. I stress however that this is just my view and I don't feel strongly enough about it to say it should be one way or the other.

 

Hildegard

Well how about making melee and spell hit into one stat as well as melee and spell crit.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Fiola

There will still be optimal items under a "homogenized" system. But that's not the point of gear homogenization. The important question is "how sub-optimal are the non-optimal items?"


ie: Kill super-raid boss X, and get his "Best-in-slot healing plate bracers". Problem: All the paladins have it. What else are you going to do with it? Give it to a warrior so he could wear it in Shatt? The drop might as well be a void crystal to save us the time of DEing it.


When we go from items being "100% useful for Class 1, 30% useful for class 2, 10% useful for class 3" to "100% useful for Class 1, 85% useful for class 2, 70% useful for class 3", it's improving the usefulness of any given piece of loot. Boomkin leather for a raid with no boomkins is useless. Same for Str/Int plate without Ret paladins, or Str/Agi leather without feral druids. We don't raid for the sake of void crystals.

 

Ayrish

I think this was mentioned previously, but would it be all that bad if for general gear drops (which this new system seems to be going for) that Holy Paladins would be using +spell power Mail gear? Sure they'd be losing some armor rating, if you're healing your armor isn't that big of a deal most of the time. For set pieces though, they could again have plate.

Currently Elemental want +dmg, +crit, +regen, +haste, maybe not in that order but those to some extent. Resto shaman want +heal, +regen, +haste, and +crit, again to varying extent though crit would be minor for Resto. Holy Paladins want +heal, +crit, +regen, with some +haste (you know the drill).

As you can see, the two Shaman specs and Holy Paladins all want pretty much the same thing. Maybe not to the same extent, but almost the exact same set of stats. You can even possibly make all three desire the same gear by tweaking their talent trees or base abilities.

If they do this, Paladins can still have plate for their set chest, helm, gloves, shoulders and leggings, but use "general" spell gear boots, belts and bracers. This way Holy Paladins aren't taking up a slot set of their own (since their set would be off a token), and the other pieces would have Resto and Elemental shaman also going for them.