Havok

Given the lead time on print magazines (6 weeks - 2 months), this info is very much out of date IMO.

 

◊ zirky

Is anyone else worried about the tiered badges resulting in severe bag space issues?

 

Starfire

The trend seems to be that we always get more bag space and we also don't seem to be gaining "more" eq. In the sense that there -arent- more eq slots, so no real need to have more than we currently have now. We'll simply replace.

Additionally, with the homogenisation of hybrid gear, we'll be needing al ot less off-spec loot.

So no, no problems.

 

• Playered

In stacks: 4x T4 tokens vs 1x T7, 1x T8, 1x T9, 1x T10.

Thats beside the point, you wont be stockpiling old tokens if they are in fact, worthless to you.
Not only would you potentially not go to the content which drops them often/at all - you would just leave the badges rotting in the corpse or delete them due to the fact they are giving you gear you (already have) or have no further use for as you have access to the higher quality tierd loot.


Badges of Justice only stockpiled up for people in multiple stacks due to their constant use in aquiring higher quality loot every <x> patches, untill the Alchemy Lab on the IQD opened up ofcourse.

 

Cube

Or have a turnin system that lets you trade in a number of [Badge of Justice] for 1 [Badge of Justice +1]. It'll give incentive to run lower-tier content, but won't allow people that farmed the crap out of Naxx2 to get T9 badge gear that easily. It also helps with alts and gearing up new people, since they'll be able to apply their old badges for the new gear, but at a much lower rate of return.

 

Ja7us

This system is identical to the current system. Higher-tier items currently cost more badges, which is similar to them being traded in at a low conversion rate. The whole point of a tiered badge system would be to prevent people from buying the higher-tier items with the lower-tier badges, so a trade-in conversion doesn't really make any sense.

 

Mideci

I get your point. But even if they were as good as the TT, so long as they aren't as good as the DST, we were stuck running Gruul.

------------------

And as for bag space and badges, it's time for a Wallet that goes next to your Keychain. It's allowed to contained all the logical things: Battleground Marks, Heroic Badges, Engineering 'Membership' Cards (just came to me for whatever reason), perhaps letters you are delivering for quests since your keyring can also hold temporary quest keys (are you listening Corki?). I am aware Blizzard likes to limit our bag space and force up to not pepetually store old armor and weapons, but the Wallet would hardly be overpowered in this regard. It would free up maybe 6-8 slots that are wasted on currency of various forms at the moment. And if we go to different badges, the holding of more types of currency could easily make it worse. Enter the Wallet and the problem is solved.

 

Incoherence

An upward conversion basically gives you the same system as now, with maybe a bit more of a ramp-up. I would guess that a downward conversion (break your Badge of T8 into 5 Badges of T7, so that you can get the new trinket they added to Badges of T7 that's somehow best-in-slot) is more likely.

 

PsyBomb

meh, if they don't want T7 badges to rot around the time of T9, all they have to do is make good gems available to the lower badges. This gives a decent way to bleed off some otherwise-rotting badges, and would give top-end raiders a reason to go back to the older places without making it absolutely critical (unless you're in rabid need of said gems, anyway)

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Malleus

We've already been told that this trend will not be continuing - there will be no 32-slot specialist bags in WOTLK. The reason is almost certainly coding-related; the most slots you can have in your bags right now is four 28-slot specialist bags plus your 16-slot backpack, which comes to 128. Having more would require altering the way inventory works. And without larger specialist bags, it's not likely we'll get larger ordinary bags as it would devalue specialising.

Read it again, please:

PC Gamer: What else is changing?
Tom Chilton (Kalgan) : We’re also going to be doing away with spell-damage only type gear. We’ll be moving to a system that, as part of your talents, will let players convert healing into spell-damage and vice-versa as part of their talents. That way they can use the exact same gear, but their talents just adapt what it does.”

Emphasis mine. Healing can be converted to spell damage, and spell damage can be converted to healing. That means there must be gear with spell damage on it.

 

gnoop

Great, we can have all the healers and casters upset with each other for rolling on all the gear. While I do understand that caster gear might not be itemized for healers and vice-versa, is that really going to matter to many people so long as the primary stat gets upgraded? To quite a number of people, I'm guessing no.

 

Groat

You've partially misinterpreted this (unless if you didn't - but I'm still going to elaborate on your comment further). They have EXPLICITLY stated during one of the interviews that the 10-man and the 25-man would not share the same RaidID. They will be sharing the same lockout timer (which is to say for any given raid dungeon, it will reset in 7 days on both the 25-man and 10-man version; if they decide to make a rapidly resetting one that resets in 3 days, it'll reset in 3 days for both the 25-man and 10-man version of it).

Ultimately what the new model will mean is that people who are doing bleeding edge raiding will be functionally required to do both versions each week up until you're all ahead of the gear curve mainly just because that's the only way to increase your Epics / week ratio. So certainly all of the end-game guilds will be doing 25-man Naxx AND 10-man Naxx just because you would want to be getting 50 epics per week instead of 30, even if 20 of those epics were weaker - they're still likely better than what people would otherwise be wearing.

I've been trying to dig up the exact interview where it was stated, but they were directly asked the RaidID question and were met with a direct answer that they would not share a RaidID. Quite frankly, that makes perfect sense - I don't see how it would be possible for them to share a RaidID - they're two completely different raids (10 vs 25); they'd have to extend their current model to set a lock on both versions which would take extra work just to prevent people from trying both versions. They have no incentive to discourage that (the best loot is always available in the 25-man version) and they said directly that they won't.

 

Jagiya

I personally welcome the idea of Tiered badge loot requiring reputation relative to it's dungeon. (ie. Shattrath Badge Vendor requiring Violet Eye rep, or none; as it's a baseline, and the Sunwell Isle Badge Vendor requiring Ashtongue / Scale rep) This keeps the stuff accessible, but prevents people from simply hoarding badges until that new vendor is unlocked, then skipping 3 tiers of content. On the flipside; I'm personally guilty of this. I specifically hoarded badges on my Rogue alt; having never entered a raid instance in BC. A few days after the badge vendor was released, I had him in Black Temple beating half of the raid in DPS.

The most fantastic part about having this awesome gear so accessible is that it really helps with recruitment. Everyone knows how difficult it is to pick up recruits - they very rarely come with gear unless they're a fresh transfer and every raiding guild on the server is trying to snag him. Whilst in the past we'd have to pick someone out of a Tier 4 guild and spend months gearing them up, we now have the option of selecting from a range of players decked in badge gear - providing a very smooth transition and closing that gap.

It'd be horrible to see "Badge of Justice" drop in Tier 4 content, "Badge of Honor" drop in Tier 5 content, and "Badge of Deliverance" drop in Tier 6 content. I don't want to see badges becoming obsolete with time. It's great to be able to go back and do the odd Karazhan or ZA to score badges for Alt Gear, Gems, or even Offspec gear. If badges didn't drop in Karazhan, the place would be a deadzone. Putting badges into that dungeon was the best way to breathe some new life into dead content.

Whilst putting a reputation requirement on newer tiers of badge loot wouldn't entirely limit it's accessibility, it would hinder people in my position; forcing us to bring our alts along to primary raids to soak up some rep. Gotta take the good with the bad, I suppose.

In this case; I don't think it'll be so ideal. In a DST scenario, there really is very limited incentive for those 9 other people to get dragged along. Let's just say (for example) DST dropped off... Vashj, for theory's sake. Whilst it may very well be quite easy for a Tier 6 kitted guild to go back and clear (pre-2.4) SSC, there really isn't a great deal of reason aside from "Hey, let's get BillyTheRogue his DST." Especially if it doesn't drop, week after week. For this reason, I really hope they do follow the recommended path of having such "game-breaking" items available from a rep/badge vendor. We also need to consider that with consolidated loot tables, our chances of seeing such items would increase.

I'd like to be of positive mind and feel confident in their ability to distribute loot appropriately, but given the trend... I really can't help but remain skeptical.

2 years ago we were clearing AQ and progressing in Naxx, whilst us Rogues were screaming for a weekly BWL run so we could get a DFT. Here we are today clearing BT and progressing in Sunwell, and the rogues are screaming for a Gruul's run so they can get a DST.

 

Lookit

The more apt comparison in this case is not Vashj, but rather Zul'jin. Currently for a T6 guild working on Sunwell, it's not at all unreasonable for interested members to set up a ZA run during offnights to help people get those last few pieces that they want. It is also fairly easy for a member to find a spot with another guild or even a pug for ZA. There is also a much better chance of being the one to get the piece of loot you're going for if it drops.

The beauty of the 10-mans is that it won't require the full power of a guild's raiding force to run it. Much in the way my guild has 2 groups that run timed ZA for bear mounts every reset, squeezed in after raid or on off-nights, in Wrath I'm sure there will be interest in running 10-mans. And if there isn't interest in running it because the guild has progressed beyond it, but there is still 1 or 2 pieces you in particular are looking for, I'm sure that between alts and friends it will be fairly easy to get runs together, simply because you only have to coordinate between 9 other people and not 24.

 

Copernicus

The basic goal is pretty simple - healers who get healing gear can wear that gear in non-healing situations. It avoids the situation where the T6 Priest/Shaman logs onto a Rogue to "have fun" while soloing.

In terms of leveling, quest rewards, 5-mans, and possibly even 10-mans, it means that gear will be easier to get and distribute. While leveling a healer class, I'd never have to make a choice between pointless healing gear for group play vs DPS gear for solo play.

A robust DKP system will handle 25-man gear where DPS designed gear goes to DPS players and healing designed gear goes to healers. And then when stupid healing gear or DPS gear is on rot, it can at least go to someone else who's been waiting on an upgrade.

 

Jagiya

You're right - ZA is a much more appropriate example; however I chose not to use it because I tend to feel that most people run it because the guaranteed bear makes it so attractive. We also clear ZA on a twice-weekly basis for bear mounts; however once Halazzi hits the floor and the bear has been looted, the raid quickly and suddenly becomes very empty. The only people interested in continuing are all on their alts, trying to score a free Hex Lord or ZJ Trinket. I only used Vashj because it's a good example of outdated content with nothing to offer a guild who is investing 2 nights per week into Sunwell progression.

 

Prinsesa

Wasn't that the original intent of the 33% healing to spell damage conversion? A Holy Priest with 1800 healing is also going to have 594 spell damage.

Do you mean to say that this kind of conversion is not sufficient, that healing classes require more spell damage on top of that to maintain a decent killing speed? This is a genuine question, as I would think that the main aspect missing from a healer trying to solo is the lack of DPS talents. That is, a Resto Druid would not have the Wrath pushback resistance, the 2x crit multiplier, 10% more damage from Moonfury, etc., etc.

===============================

Regarding tiered badges:

While I was very enthused to learn that I'd be able to raid anything and everything in WOTLK as a 10-man group, I have to say I'm slightly disappointed at the tiered badge system.

I don't have the time to raid 25-mans, but I do have a lot of time to run one or two heroics every weeknight and raid Kara and ZA on the weekends, so I've managed to accumulate and spend probably more than a thousand Badges on my Paladin. My ability to tank in ZA was enabled primarily by picking up the great badge loot, and it has kept me playing for a lot longer than if I was stuck with the original badge vendor where the best gear was a 50 badge helm.

What happens in WOTLK when badge loot becomes stratified? I have 0 Ashtongue reputation and 0 Scale of the Sands reputation, so that would have locked me out of the 100 badge tanking pants.

It'd be great if I could still aim for the ZA themed badge loot, but under a tiered system I might be locked out of that as well.

Unless they keep adding loot to the ilevel 110 bracket, I'd run out of pieces to pick up, and I assume this would apply to a much greater percentage of the casual people as well. That is, the ilevel 110 items would be the most popular, since they'd be the easiest to acquire, without any raiding requirements.

I suppose my dislike of the stratification comes from the fact that anyone in BT is already picking up BT loot, so they're not at all being cheated just because Joe McAverage can pick up less well-itemized pieces, regardless of being the same ilevel.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

flyingtoastr

I don't think is has to with "Joe McAverage" picking up 141s. I think badge tiering has more to do with the devs wanting to put some sort of progression back into PvE endgame. Right now there is no incentive for Mr. Joe to try anything other than his weekly kara and bear boss. He can sit on those dozen encounters every week without progressing and still get new and exciting loots every few weeks.

With multiple badge levels you will actually have to work through content to improve your character as was originally intended with PvE. In order to get newer and shinier loot you will have to push yourself into newer instances and experience more content instead of farming kara for two years. Now that everything is also going to be a 10-man instance there really isn't much of an excuse (other than laziness) to not try to progress.

As long as its implemented well I see no problem with this new system.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

orcsgotbooty

Yeah I totally agree with you there, I was kind of ignoring DST because of how ridiculous it is to drop off Gruul.

As for the Wallet, I would LOVE this, bagspace is the bane of my existence, bye bye all my pets and pre BC armor


Sorry to double quote but I didn't want to double post.

I think the real problem isn't that Joe McAverage is picking up 141, but why doesn't his guild after farming KZ for over a year, try Za and actually spend time trying to down the bosses in there. At least on my server the kara guilds don't even do za and its a shame, Blizzard makes content for small groups that is challenging (challenging if your just kara geared, if your in t5-t6 the timed chests are your challenge) but the small groups that asked for this content, don't use it at all. Maybe kara with "t4" badges, za with "t5" badges, and then if magisters terrace was a 10 man, make them drop "t6" badges. There would be much more incentive for small guilds to experience the game instead of semi afk kara every week, and then 25 man raiders wouldn't rofl (as much) at the badge gear because it would actually be earned.

 

Prinsesa

@flyingtoastr: Fair point regarding progression becoming more of a driving force for acquiring badges, which is why I'm only slightly (as opposed to greatly) disappointed. I suppose it's not going to be so bad given the laxer requirements for even high-end raiding come WOTLK.

===

Regarding the DST: Isn't it a niche item? I don't think anyone is missing their [Tsunami Talisman] or [Hex Shrunken Head] too terribly. DST is an exception only because its such an incredibly powerful item whose scaling leaves it best-in-slot long after you've left the relevant content in the dust.

As long as Blizz avoids making such an outstanding item, I don't think we'll run into many more issues - gradual increases in stats are boring, to be sure, but it's the innovative stuff that leaves you farming Gruul for 2 years.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

seminarca

Ehh, "an incredibly powerful item whose scaling leaves it best-in-slot long after you've left the relevant content in the dust" isn't exactly a niche item, it's a must have for absolutely any class/spec that uses auto attack as a means to deliver damage. You (or I) might be misinterpreting the meaning of niche.

 

Prinsesa

Perhaps I did use the term vaguely there. To clarify, I meant that it's the only item of its kind. I don't think there's anything else out there for any class that increases your DPS so much that you have to arse your guild into doing content 2 tiers back for a chance at it.

Warglaives maybe? Except they drop off Illidan, whose drops probably stay relevant to all but the most well-equipped Sunwell raiders.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Starfire

Talents are mostly irrelevant to gear. Most holy priests will end up with -most- of the dps talents in the holy tree anyways. There's quite honestly maybe 2 holy talents and 1 discipline dps talents which aren't normal to take and its -very- easy to pick up one of those with any healing spec with some minor sacrifice. (And to be honest, the other dps talent, is lacking).

It's purely and simply gear for us to be able to smite. We should almost always have Divine Fury, what we normally would lack is Searing Light (10% more smite damage) and Surge of Light (which isn't even always a straight dps upgrade).

With 1200 +damage I can beat respawns in most Outland zones, if not all.

 

Shakes

It depends on the class.

As a shaman, due to having no pushback on lightning bolt, if you can't kill them before they get to you you're reduced to flametongue + searing totem + shocks every cooldown. Which isn't unworkable, but it's not great either. Therefore stacking +damage tends to have a pretty huge gain as it leaves the mobs with a lot less when they get to you.

Swapping out the majority of my healing gear for ilvl inferior damage gear, even though I only gain about 200 damage and 10% crit, is a huge win in kill speed for me.

And even then, my abandoned warlock without a single epic still kills faster than I do. For most healing classes, talents matter more than gear. I'm not complaining though, it used to be 3 second lightning bolts + water shield gave much less mana (hence I had downtime on top of slow kill speed), which was just horrid.

 

Nathariel

I saw something slightly different when I read this quote, more a mid-point rather than having both types of items drop. Lets take the Shaman T6 bracers as an example as the remaining stats are almost identical.

[Skyshatter Bracers] and [Skyshatter Bands]

What if we turned them into 1 item that instead of having 73/25 healing/damage and 39 damage as the stats, it was something like 50/25, and there was a talent deep in Restoration for 50% of damage to be healing, and a talent deep in elemental for 25% of healing to be damage. Or even having more than 35? points in one spec would allow you to use the conversion. (This value would have to be high enough to make sure you couldn't get both)

With a balance of the other stats, you would be able to have an item that would be useful to whichever spec you were currently, without making the item overpowered for hybrids.