Douglas

You're just considering it in isolation. Compare it to the other stats you might get (in the absence of talents, which can make some of the alternatives even better).

Spellpower: your DPS goes up (good), your DPM goes up (good), your MPS stays static (neutral).

Spell crit: your DPS goes up (good), your DPM goes up (good), your MPS stays static (neutral).

Spell hit: your DPS goes up (good), your DPM goes up (good), your MPS stays static (neutral).

Haste: your DPS goes up (good), your DPM stays static (neutral), your MPS goes up (bad).

 

slant

I think we all understand that haste shortening DoT/HoT duration while increasing DPS/HPS would be a negative change for several "special case" spells, particularly debuffs with a minor DoT component. My assumption is that all of those special cases would be changed appropriately. There are a number of special cases, which have already been discussed extensively in this thread.

For example, the devs would figure out how many lifebloom stacks they want players to have the ability to sustain with a given amount of haste and change the base spell's duration and healing to fit. For roots, remove the damage entirely so it's not hasted. For vampiric touch/insect swarm/etc, increase base duration and reduce damage done accordingly. And so on.

 

Cube

This wouldn't work. Remember, haste also reduces the GCD. So, with a hasted lifebloom HoT, the total number of players that a 3-stack can be kept up stays constant. The only thing druids get from a hasted HoT is increased single target throughput, unlike now, where we do get increased output to more targets.

In the leaked alpha, Gift of the Earthmother reduces the GCD to 1.0 seconds. With this talent, reducing the lifebloom HoT length through haste reduces overall effectiveness, because we get less casts per lifebloom stack.

 

• Playered

That's one area which haste helps most on, mana regeneration stats were deemed worthless because once you hit a stable amount you could never really surpass it and thus all additional mana/regeneration was worthless, especially true for DPS casters.

In order to have a purpose for putting higher and higher mana regeneration on gear there must be some reason for needing it beyond mana burning encounters...

 

slant

I see what you mean. I would allow gear haste to stack with gift of the earthmother to further reduce the GCD. Otherwise like you say haste would actually reduce LB effectiveness no matter what the base duration is.

Assuming rational design the mana regen buffs were definitely introduced with haste in mind. I think we'll be seeing a ton of haste on WOTLK gear.

 

Anaram

Lifebloom 7 second duration stacks pretty well against most silence/stun effects currently in the game which tend to be in the 4-5 second range. To make sure lifebloom doesn't drop during silence, you must keep constantly reapplying it. Hasting lifebloom would mean the stacks would drop increasingly easily during such silences. I'd hate the idea of being forced to collect a "non-haste" gear just for those special circumstances where haste is detrimental.

The system currently works fine for druids (both resto and balance). I personally really dislike fixing things that don't need fixing.

 

tedv

Except that even if haste affected DoTs, you'll need over 620 haste rating to get Lifebloom to tick fast enough that it wears off in less than 5 seconds. Then keep in mind that if the tank hasn't gotten any heals for 5 seconds straight, the final bloom from lifebloom is pretty much guaranteed to have no overhealing. So even letting it bloom isn't terrible. Which is to say, not detrimental.

I'll also note that the system doesn't work fine for balance druids either. Ask one of them how often they cast Moonfire or Insect Swarm in a raid. DoTs have horrible scaling because they don't scale with haste (or crit, but that's a different discussion). Even if balance druids were fine under the current system of spell haste, shadow priests and warlocks are not fine. Consider that the only way Warlocks top damage meters is by casting a spell that is NOT a DoT. Warlocks have 10+ damage spells but only use the two that aren't DoTs (shadow bolt and seed). Doesn't that strike you as odd? A sign that things really are broken and do need fixing?

 

glowacks

Seed of Corruption is a DoT, but obviously is used more for its explosion than its dot.

There's no way to make haste apply to debuffs left on mobs that works in a good way in every situation. Perhaps we could see some inscriptions that would make haste apply to certain spells in a certain way. In the end, we just need another stat that scales damage from DoTs. The most obvious way would be through something like "periodic spellpower" - a spellpower that applied only to DoTs and HoTs much like how crit only helps spells that aren't periodic. Haste will continue to effect the GCD and allow more casting of filler spells for DoT classes, but there's no reason why each class/spec should scale with absolutely every state, as long as there's a few.

 

Cube

Again, letting the bloom go off is detrimental, period. The HoT does more healing per second than letting it go off will, no matter what the haste is. Plus, the tank will have, at minimum, 3 seconds of lower healing to get the 3-stack back up. And lowering the HoT duration increases the chance of a HoT running off a tank during a silence-there aren't any bosses that use silence on a strict timer-they will use it whenever they feel like after the timer's up.

Balance druids will use IS or moonfire every 12 seconds, if they have the T5 4-piece bonus. Their main nuke is Starfire, true, but IS/moonfire are an important part of the rotations.

 

Anaram

Insect swarm is not used because it has too low DPSC (damage per seconds casting) on sufficiently good gearing levels. Allowing haste to make insect swarm tick faster still won't make it a spell worth using unless the real scaling issues are addressed first.

 

Anaram

7 second duration means that every single global cooldown has to be spent refreshing the hot to 100% ensure that it's still up when a 4 second silence ends - this is assuming the silencing effect it's not perfectly predictible. One out of 2 cooldowns has to be used against a 3 second silence.

If lifebloom duration was 5 seconds, that would mean you could not reliably keep it up against a 4 second silence even if you constantly refreshed it. Only if you were lucky enough to get the silence soon enough after refreshing (instead of just as you are about to) would you be able to continue rolling afterwards.

 

SanSul

For Alliance Ret paladins, Haste benefits only white damage. Haste is also very expensive on the item budget, and can come at the cost of crit rating. Crit benefits all Ret paladin attacks, save for consecrate, and crit also is useful if you have one of those crit rating trinkets. Crit procs vengeance, but with the 30second duration, the uptime is practically 100% now, so thats moot. There is also the 3% increased crit damage meta gem that is popular.

So correct me if I am wrong, but I believe its been established that alliance ret paladins will perform worse in haste plate.

Since Seal of Blood inherently does more dps and scales directly with haste, it allows Horde Ret paladins to out perform alliance and have wider gear choices. Blizzard has openly stated that Horde having signifigantly higher dps is "intended and will not be changed", but that is a thread all on its own.

 

Anedris

Can we stop for a moment and consider:

- Haste is currently a good secondary stat for DoT-based classes.
- Crit is currently a terrible stat for DoT-based classes.

Given these facts why is everyone focused on making haste affect DoTs when it is crit that is the real outlier and larger obstacle to homogenizing gear? As a shadowpriest I don't mind haste on my gear - it's not ideal, but it's not bad. I hate crit, and even with the Wrath changes crit will still be a weak stat (currently it takes about 6 crit rating to equal 1 spell damage while haste is 1:1. Wrath will double the effectiveness of crit, but that still makes it 3:1, perhaps a bit more valuable if the regen from imp. spirit tap is actually needed... that's still a terrible ratio).

 

slant

I think we'd all like to see DoTs/HoTs crit too. That was pretty well established earlier, and it's an easy fix. Haste is a much harder stat to make applicable to shadow priests, etc, that's why we're talking about it.

 

Ja7us

What? As stated, haste is a perfectly good stat for shadow priests right now.

 

slant

Really? Is it actually good, or is it the only stat other than spell damage that isn't entirely 100% worthless? It's certainly nowhere near as valuable as it is for mages, elemental shamans, or destruction warlocks, right?

 

flyingtoastr

At 1400 shadow damage Haste is roughly a 1:1 with spell damage (if I recall correctly) for Shadow Priests. It is not a bad stat by any stretch.

And on that note is haste really a good stat for a class which chronic mana problems like mages?

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

PSGarak

Is that for destruction warlocks, or affliction?

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

flyingtoastr

Shadow Priests, sorry for not clarifying. I honestly am not sure what it is for locks.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Jagiya

Haven't seen this posted in this thread yet, but one of my guildies posted it this morning:
EDIT: Hunter ability.

 

GSH

Isn't Camouflage (as written) strictly better than Vanish? Seems unlikely that Blizzard will give Hunters a better version of an iconic Rogue ability.

 

Prinsesa

An this is a problem because? Before haste gear existed, this was never an issue for Druids. After haste gear existed, but before it lowered the GCD, this wasn't an issue either.

That is exactly what haste is supposed to do: Increase throughput without increasing efficiency. This is as opposed to spell damage, which accomplishes both.

If a Warlock came on here saying "Haste sucks, it lets me cast Shadowbolts faster, but it eats my mana faster", we'd all say "THAT'S THE POINT!".

If haste is changed like this and it's not compatible with how you heal, you don't take it - it's that simple.

I think he means that Blizzard makes a final determination on how many players they want you to be able to keep LB stacked on and set it in stone from there - yes, if we go from current numbers LB would only ever be rolled on 3 targets if haste affected HOTs, but Blizzard could always arbitrarily decide to increase or decrease that 'locked-in' number.

Lifebloom 7 second duration stacks pretty well against most silence/stun effects currently in the game which tend to be in the 4-5 second range. To make sure lifebloom doesn't drop during silence, you must keep constantly reapplying it. Hasting lifebloom would mean the stacks would drop increasingly easily during such silences. I'd hate the idea of being forced to collect a "non-haste" gear just for those special circumstances where haste is detrimental.

If there's a period of raid-wide Silence for 5 seconds, and your Lifebloom expires 4 seconds in, not only did it bloom, giving your tank a large heal, you're also only 1 second away from being able to cast again.

If your tank was not topped off prior to the Bloom, the Bloom tops him off. If the Bloom was overhealing, he'd be at full health in the 1 second period of non-Lifebloomage, which would still be covered by the other HOTs from everyone else. If your tank can go from 100% to dead on such short notice, I'd like to think having Lifebloom tick 1 second longr isn't actually your problem.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Addled

More than likely, the Hunter will be unable to move while in Camouflage. NE hunters can do the same thing with Shadowmeld, except they can't do the cleanse debuffs part.

 

Prinsesa

The 'improved invisibility' part suggests that it works like a Mage's invisibility as opposed to a Rogue's stealth. Not being able to see anyone else is a pretty big drawback, I'd say.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Ja7us

Err, if the hunter can't see anyone else, I'm not sure how they'll manage to "Deal damage" to break the effect. I assumed it would work exactly like Shadowmeld except that you wouldn't be able to see the hunter if you were nearby.