Isn't Camouflage (as written) strictly better than Vanish? Seems unlikely that Blizzard will give Hunters a better version of an iconic Rogue ability.
With all due respect, there are those of us in the hunter community who feel this is long overdue. The hunter class is in many ways a "ranged rogue" so why not give them a form of "stealth". Not too mention, this would also, finally, give hunters a form of PVP escape. They currently do not have one.
I'm sorry, but your post really comes off as a tunnel visioned whine about how one spell used by one spec of one class will be nerfed by this change, when the math still says it's roughly breaking even (and it's a benefit for multiple spells of many other classes, druids included). The sky would not fall if Haste affected Dots. You would not be casting more to accomplish the same result-- mathematically you would be casting more to accomplish a greater result.
I've never denied that there are very real situations where faster hots would be better. I don't see how you can deny that there are very real situations where faster hots would be worse.
I've never denied that there are very real situations where faster hots would be better. I don't see how you can deny that there are very real situations where faster hots would be worse.
I think our disagreement is over portions and magnitudes. The situations where hasted Hots would be better seems to be in the 95%+ range, and they would be slightly better. The times when they are worse (Lifebloom against silence with very high haste values) are small and the loss not that great. Plus the problems can still be overcome by shifting gear to be more +healing oriented.
My conclusion is that having haste affect HoTs and DoTs is a net huge win for both. That 5% of loss doesn't come close to the 95% gain. Since you seem to be arguing that this change shouldn't be done for HoTs, mathematically that only makes sense if it would be a net loss to the effectiveness of HoTs. But I just don't understand how, for at least 51% of situations where HoTs are used, hasting HoTs would reduce their overall effectiveness. The math just doesn't support that claim.
You should look up how lifebloom works. If haste affects lifebloom, it will lower the amount of targets you can have a stack running on. Similarly, for a priest, if haste affects the duration of renew, it will lower the amount of targets you can have a renew running on at the same time.
Haste affecting the duration also gives problems with spells that have specific cooldowns. Should the haste effect lower the cooldown too?
On a completely different note, an image was mined that shows the three plate classes' (supposed) dungeon 4 sets. An interesting note that that it follows the Sunwell design of using the same models with different colors for each class (there are a few cosmetic difference, namely the wings on the helm and emblem on the shoulders).
This does bring up the question of whether this is going to translate into the actual raid tiers as well. The Blues have said that Naxx will keep the old set models, so I figure Tier 7 is safe. After that though the only thing that we know is that the 25- and 10-man models will be the same but recolored (or have more particle effects, etc.). As PvP sets are no longer taking the same models (reducing the number of extra colors that are being used) could it be possible that we will be seeing Sunwell/AQ40 style armor sets for most of Wrath?
If haste affects lifebloom, it will lower the amount of targets you can have a stack running on. Similarly, for a priest, if haste affects the duration of renew, it will lower the amount of targets you can have a renew running on at the same time.
This was already discussed. The fact that you can roll Blooms on 3 targets at the same time is completely arbitrary, as set by limits on the duration, GCD, latency and human reaction time. If haste affects Blooms, it's up to Blizzard to make a decision how many targets they want to lock you in for.
On a completely different note, an image was mined that shows the three plate classes' (supposed) dungeon 4 sets. An interesting note that that it follows the Sunwell design of using the same models with different colors for each class (there are a few cosmetic difference, namely the wings on the helm and emblem on the shoulders).
This does bring up the question of whether this is going to translate into the actual raid tiers as well. The Blues have said that Naxx will keep the old set models, so I figure Tier 7 is safe. After that though the only thing that we know is that the 25- and 10-man models will be the same but recolored (or have more particle effects, etc.). As PvP sets are no longer taking the same models (reducing the number of extra colors that are being used) could it be possible that we will be seeing Sunwell/AQ40 style armor sets for most of Wrath?
Some of the current D3 sets are recolored, and the blue reputation pvp sets are identical to D3 sets. I think they focus their artwork a bit more on the raid gear, just because you'll be staring at it longer.
This was already discussed. The fact that you can roll Blooms on 3 targets at the same time is completely arbitrary, as set by limits on the duration, GCD, latency and human reaction time. If haste affects Blooms, it's up to Blizzard to make a decision how many targets they want to lock you in for.
It was also blizzard's decision to allow haste to effect the GCD, which allowed resto druids to heal more targets.
Here's the main difference in hasting HoTs and hasting nuke heals:
Hasting nuke heals allows you to get X% more heals off on targets, which amounts to X% more direct healing, at the cost of X% more mana consumption if they're spam healing. If they're not, it means that they can get off their nukes that much quicker. In short, it allows you to heal, over time, X% more targets, because a good spam healer will hit targets that will heal as close to 100% of their target's damage.
Hasting HoT's doesn't let you do this. You keep a static number of possible targets to heal. While you MAY output X% more healing, it's doubtful, because HoTs don't tick when the target is at 100%. And you're forced to spend X% more mana per second at all times, because the HoTs should always be kept up on your targets.
EDIT:
I forgot to also mention that Gift of the Earthmother(as it's currently implimented) will drop the GCD to the minimum length of 1.0 seconds. Going by this, Blizzard has seemingly chosen the arbitrary number of 5 as the number of maximum stacks. This makes hasting HoT's even more undesirable because it will reduce the number of casts we can get off per lifebloom cast.
As PvP sets are no longer taking the same models (reducing the number of extra colors that are being used) could it be possible that we will be seeing Sunwell/AQ40 style armor sets for most of Wrath?
I think so, especially since PvP art will be different. It saves a lot of time using the same art for armor sets for three classes, so they can use the art development time for other things.
I'd like to know about level-based scaling mechanics. That is, things like Blood Fury, Predatory Strikes, hunter pet training points (and possibly overall pet health too?), etc., that all function as multipliers of your level.
This notion worked reasonably well from 1 to 60, as gear improved at a roughly linear rate through these levels. It stopped working as well from 60 to 70, a 17% increase in level that was accompanied by an average gear level improvement of roughly 75%. Assuming that we see the same sort of progression in WotLK (and I think it's a fair assumption that it will be *at least* that pronounced), then the 60 to 80 delta could well be a 33% increase in level that is accompanied by a 200% increase in average gear level.
So, has anyone observed changes to any of these level-based scaling mechanics?
Predatory Strikes already has a scaling component - I think it adds 150% of your level and +10% to the feral AP on your weapon. It's safe to say that they're at least looking at these bonuses.
... could it be possible that we will be seeing Sunwell/AQ40 style armor sets for most of Wrath?
The tier 7 images released so far have shown very different designs for the Warlock and Mage. It could be that they are only sharing models for the 'minor' sets. (Where exactly these datamined sets will drop is a different discussion entirely, as I believe they stated that the Naxx 2.0 sets will reuse the tier 3 models)
An interesting note that that it follows the Sunwell design of using the same models with different colors for each class (there are a few cosmetic difference, namely the wings on the helm and emblem on the shoulders).
This does bring up the question of whether this is going to translate into the actual raid tiers as well. The Blues have said that Naxx will keep the old set models, so I figure Tier 7 is safe.
There are images around of what are claimed to be T7 sets but given that T7 will re-use T3 models, I think it more likely that these images are showing T8. I recall seeing rogue, hunter, warlock, priest and mage and they were all completely different looking.
There are images around of what are claimed to be T7 sets but given that T7 will re-use T3 models, I think it more likely that these images are showing T8. I recall seeing rogue, hunter, warlock, priest and mage and they were all completely different looking.
The problem I have with the leaked images so far, is if you look at T4, T5 and T6, and the quality of workmanship/detail put into them, and then look at some of the "Supposed T7/8" models on the wiki, the quality of work goes way down. I just don't see it happening.
I don't think we've seen a true Tier set yet. To think that priests would go from this to this just doesn't seem likely. Even looking at the weapons and shields, there's been a significant step up in the detail and quality. To have beautiful looking weapons and dull armour just doesn't make sense.
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Hasting DoTs and HoTs also limits the developers' ability to impliment new exciting cool things because it means that every effect has to be either a DoT/HoT or a de/buff, but not both (or at least primarily one or the other). Like if some spell were to have a combined stun and DoT, haste would be a nerf to the spell, because haste would lower the duration (reminds me of how Surprise Attacks was a nerf when first implimented). While the examples we currently have are basically edge cases (UA, lifebloom), they're also the more interesting cases.
And just to take Flying Toaster's comment seriously, let's make a rundown of all the current abilities that are adversely affected. Keep in mind that, aside from a hundred or so haste from gear, you can also get 35% from bloodlust which would have severe impacts on some of these.
Vampiric Touch - Small amounts of haste would make the rotations fail to line up well, causing small gaps in VT uptime. Refreshing early to erase these gaps would be a DPS loss. Net effect: loss of group mp/5 either way
Misery - probably trivial
Shadow Embrace - probably trivial
Deep Wounds + Blood Frenzy - I don't like this debuff anyways, but it could lower uptime, especially in rage-starved situations.
Immolate - Makes for less incinerates per immolate, causing a net DPS loss at high crit values. While consistent haste wouldn't cause this because the incinerates would line up to, variable haste from procs or bloodlusts or what-have-you might create a small immolate for long incinerates.
Unstable Affliction - This is a case where if you remove the DoT portion entirely it's still a worthwhile spell (in PvP), that you absolutely wouldn't want the duration lowered. Having bloodlust make the spell only give 12 seconds of dispell protection instead of 18 would be just silly, especially in a PvP situation where the ability to refresh the debuff isn't always available. On the other hand, in PvE the DoT portion is more important and the bomb is flavor. Currently the best example of a two-sided spell that mixes mechanics in a way that discourages this implimentation of haste.
Lifebloom - In addition to the rolling issue, it also acts similar to UA in giving dispel protection to the target. Same arguements follow: it would be dumb if your better haste gear meant that your dispel protection could fall off in under the duration of a single cyclone.
Note also that with the talented GCD dropping to 1.0 seconds, haste actually lowers the number of targets it can be used upon, rather than holding it constant as such a change would do currently.
Rejuv/Regrowth - Something about swiftmend, I'm a bit unclear on this one.
Entangling Roots - Best example of a utility spell with a meaningless DoT, where haste shortening the duration would be a serious nerf and a meaningless buff.
Flameshock - Now plays wierd with Lava Burst, dunno if it's a good thing or not.
Deadly Poison - Higher chance of the stack falling off, making possibly for a DPS decrease instead of a DPS increase.
Seal of Vengeance - Same deal
Lacerate - Not proc-based, but still harder to stack
Consecrate - If the duration is lower than the cooldown it means you can't use it to provide protection from stealthed rogues. Creating gaps in the cycle may also impair paladin tanking somewhat if you're trying to establish control over moving adds.
DK plauges - More plagues means more damage on plague strike. Being able to stack them up is a defining class ability. Hasting their DoTs may be a DPS decrease (more data needed).
The most obvious answer isn't always the best. If you want to make haste affect DoTs, look for a different method. Personally I would recomend having haste increase the duration at constant tick speed, or increase tick speed at constant duration. It's not thematically as hasty, but it avoids all of these problems entirely.
Rejuv/Regrowth - Something about swiftmend, I'm a bit unclear on this one.
Without the T6 2-piece bonus, Swiftmend is on a 15 second cooldown. It drops to 13 with the bonus.
Rejuv is a 12 second HoT, and Regrowth lasts 24. However, rejuv gives a much larger swiftmend than regrowth, so it's preferable to eat the rejuv than the regrowth. A shortened rejuv reduces swiftmend's overall efficiency, by increasing the number of casts needed to keep rejuv up at all times.
In all honesty, this is a minor issue, because Swiftmend is more of a "oh shit" button than a spammed ability(as much as a 13 second C/D spell can be "spammed").
I think our disagreement is over portions and magnitudes. The situations where hasted Hots would be better seems to be in the 95%+ range, and they would be slightly better.
Let's not start making numbers up. There are quite significant situations where making a hot faster means nothing more than using more mana to accomplish the same effect, and it's certainly far more than 5% of all encounters.
If it were indeed 95% I'd say the problem wasn't that big. However, all my instinct says it's much much less than that.
With all due respect, there are those of us in the hunter community who feel this is long overdue. The hunter class is in many ways a "ranged rogue" so why not give them a form of "stealth". Not too mention, this would also, finally, give hunters a form of PVP escape. They currently do not have one.
The fact remains, though, that no one knows what class, if any, will get it. It could very well be a mob ability. No one knows.
How can you help?
I can shoot things and then make my pet move toward them.
With all due respect, there are those of us in the hunter community who feel this is long overdue. The hunter class is in many ways a "ranged rogue" so why not give them a form of "stealth". Not too mention, this would also, finally, give hunters a form of PVP escape. They currently do not have one.
There are also members of the hunter community that feel the camouflage power would be a waste of a "new ability slot" in WotLK. Sure it'd be a neat power, however we don't need another way to escape repairs. That gives it zero raid viability, limited 5m viability, and as far as PvP goes, I'll argue that hunters are just fine if played well.
It's too early to talk much about hunters and paladins until we see their talents and abilities, with the exception of how mana cost scaling has me a bit worried about our regen (even with numerous buffs to AotV)
If Penance is intended to be a PvP spell, and perhaps a replacement for picking up Greater Heal talents, it has some problems. The big one is that it is channeled; if you cast Greater Heal and get kicked or otherwise interrupted, it costs you no mana, whereas with Penance, you will pay the full cost up front but you will only get one tick off (you are unlikely to make it to two seconds without being interrupted). Even regular spell pushback, such as from a pet, will cause you to lose ticks (and therefore mana efficiency), whereas Greater Heal will still go off, it will just take a little longer to do so.
Secondly, you can juke an interrupt with Greater Heal, but you cannot with Penance. This means you might need to cast then cancel Greater Heal in order to get Penance off, which defeats the purpose of Penance's "get heals onto the target fast". The warrior waiting to pummel you is probably not going to fall for it if he can see Greater Heal is a 3.0s cast spell for you.
Finally, you can Greater Heal and then immediately drink (if you get out of combat in time), but you won't be able to do this trick with Penance.
Perhaps the intention of this spell in PvP really is, as people say, to quickly get a 3 stack of Grace up, although you'll have to hope nobody is attacking you when you cast it.
I would be highly surprised if Blizzard operates under an ironclad rule of "X new spells per class per expansion" such that camouflage will "use up" a precious new ability slot. Blizzard will give each class as many new abilities as they feel they need, can balance, and have good ideas for.
I would be highly surprised if Blizzard operates under an ironclad rule of "X new spells per class per expansion" such that camouflage will "use up" a precious new ability slot. Blizzard will give each class as many new abilities as they feel they need, can balance, and have good ideas for.
Well they didn't follow it with BC either, warriors only got 4, druids 4 + flight form. So its fair to say it isn't ironclad.
There are also members of the hunter community that feel the camouflage power would be a waste of a "new ability slot" in WotLK. Sure it'd be a neat power, however we don't need another way to escape repairs. That gives it zero raid viability, limited 5m viability, and as far as PvP goes, I'll argue that hunters are just fine if played well.
You're out of your mind. Zero raid viability? The ability to instantly drop almost any detrimental encounter debuff (Burn, Static Charge, Arcane Buffet... the list goes on and on) is positively huge.
06/18/08, 1:05 PM
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