If I'm in melee range to even use Wing Clip, you can bet your last copper any Rogue worth his salt will put up Crippling Poison or Hamstring for an even half-capable Warrior. Then we have a gimp walk race, or in the case of the Warrior, he waits until Intercept range is reached... Against a caster such as yourself, why on earth would I bother putting up Wing Clip?
Entrapment is a talent, by the way, so no we don't all have it.
As to FD for cancelling spells, there are plenty of mods out there to merrily retarget the hunter.
Forgive me if I'm not seeing something arena-specific; I don't arena because I despise the concept and implementation.
You keep stating the downsides to all these abilities, but the fact is, you still have like 20 abilities. They can't all be flawless and uncounterable, they have to have downsides. Just like pretty much every other classes abilities.
What I think would be nice is for camo to be the new rogue's stealth, if you get out of combat you can remove all debuffs (maybe except mark), could be nice.
What I think would be nice is for camo to be the new rogue's stealth, if you get out of combat you can remove all debuffs (maybe except mark), could be nice.
Rogues already have the ability to remove debuffs with CloS.
Rogues already have the ability to remove debuffs with CloS.
Magical debuffs =/= All debuffs.
Camo says it removes all debuffs, so that would include Physical debuffs (Deep Wounds, Rend, Hemo), currently the only weakness in CloS. It's basically the equivalent to having a pally bubble that doesn't make you immune for the next 1.5 seconds.
Camo says it removes all debuffs, so that would include Physical debuffs (Deep Wounds, Rend, Hemo), currently the only weakness in CloS. It's basically the equivalent to having a pally bubble that doesn't make you immune for the next 1.5 seconds.
Sure you don't mean 0,5 seconds?
Last edited by Tacitus : 06/21/08 at 6:50 PM.
Reason: drunk spellin iz gud
Unstable Affliction - This is a case where if you remove the DoT portion entirely it's still a worthwhile spell (in PvP), that you absolutely wouldn't want the duration lowered. Having bloodlust make the spell only give 12 seconds of dispell protection instead of 18 would be just silly, especially in a PvP situation where the ability to refresh the debuff isn't always available. On the other hand, in PvE the DoT portion is more important and the bomb is flavor. Currently the best example of a two-sided spell that mixes mechanics in a way that discourages this implimentation of haste.
See, this is what proves you are looking at it completely wrong. I can see no negative at all to having UA tick 10% faster, because my CoA, Corr, Immo, Siphon can *all* tick 10% faster meaning I get relatively the same dispel protection. And worst case I have to reapply it slightly sooner *but* I get more DPS, how on earth is that a bad thing?
And for PVE it's a total no brainer and why aff scaling sucks so bad endgame.
If there's one thing that needs minimal theorycraft and should need minimal comprehension ability is that all classes/specs should benefit 100% from all stats on their class set gear. Currently affliction is one class spec that clearly does not.
BTW, most if not all of the other spells you list are not affected in a negative way at all, in fact the only ones I agree with are the true CCs like roots, and let face it, they are stupidly easy to reapply anyway. I will take the higher DPS any day.
What about Fear? Or my teammates' less-hasted DoTs or unhasted magical debuffs (or other debuff types vs cleanse)? Or spreading UA landmines near a mage that will need to iceblock, in case of a Mass Dispel? You're being short-sighted about debuff protection in a way that serves your view.
Your premise that everyone needs to scale equally with everything both requires more defense, and is also actually unrelated to the discussion at hand. Base nukes all scale the same with crit, but this parity is intentionally thrown into dissarray by quite a few talents, so it's not an intended part of game design. And, as I've said before, being against one for of DoT-haste scaling does not mean I'm against DoT-haste scaling in general. I'm not. I just think that any mechanic that gives a concievable character disimprovement for adding a stat should be avoided at all cost. I don't care if it's a tradeoff you're personally comfortable with, that it's a tradeoff at all is, in my view, a much more severe problem than DoTs' current lack of scaling.
Oh come on, Wing Clip is a snare, so is Frost Trap. There are no dimishing returns on snares. Frost Trap with Entrapment is a brilliant getaway ability. Concussive Shot can be talented to Stun too. Hunters are loaded with ways to get away. Think about the options Warriors and Warlocks have and you'll see that Hunters don't need any extra options.
What about Fear? Or my teammates' less-hasted DoTs or unhasted magical debuffs (or other debuff types vs cleanse)? Or spreading UA landmines near a mage that will need to iceblock, in case of a Mass Dispel? You're being short-sighted about debuff protection in a way that serves your view.
Your premise that everyone needs to scale equally with everything both requires more defense, and is also actually unrelated to the discussion at hand. Base nukes all scale the same with crit, but this parity is intentionally thrown into dissarray by quite a few talents, so it's not an intended part of game design. And, as I've said before, being against one for of DoT-haste scaling does not mean I'm against DoT-haste scaling in general. I'm not. I just think that any mechanic that gives a concievable character disimprovement for adding a stat should be avoided at all cost. I don't care if it's a tradeoff you're personally comfortable with, that it's a tradeoff at all is, in my view, a much more severe problem than DoTs' current lack of scaling.
I think this argument is ridiculous. So all debuffs have exactly the same duration as UA so that UA provides dispell protection for these debuffs at all times? This is not the case, and you'll have to recast it again to protect those debuffs anyway. The idea that haste would work in another way, like dots hitting harder for the same duration, is not intuitive whatsoever.
Personally I don't find haste speeding up my debuffs intuitive at all. Haste increases my casting speed. I don't see why it would change what my spells do after I cast them.
I maintain though that all this attention to changing haste so that gear can be homogenized is misplaced. Haste is already a good stat for DoT classes. Yes, it could be better, but it's good to the point of being just a hair worse in gemming terms than +damage (thus it ends up being worth it to gem it for socket bonuses) for shadow priests (I don't know affliction warlock math so can't comment on that). In a PvP situation it's even better (because it boosts CC, mana drains and burns, and other non-damaging spells). Crit is a terrible stat for DoT classes. It is the latter that is badly in need of a boost. Haste is fine.
Personally I don't find haste speeding up my debuffs intuitive at all. Haste increases my casting speed. I don't see why it would change what my spells do after I cast them.
I maintain though that all this attention to changing haste so that gear can be homogenized is misplaced. Haste is already a good stat for DoT classes. Yes, it could be better, but it's good to the point of being just a hair worse in gemming terms than +damage (thus it ends up being worth it to gem it for socket bonuses) for shadow priests (I don't know affliction warlock math so can't comment on that). In a PvP situation it's even better (because it boosts CC, mana drains and burns, and other non-damaging spells). Crit is a terrible stat for DoT classes. It is the latter that is badly in need of a boost. Haste is fine.
Haste is a horrible for DOT classes. It does nothing for our dots at all, other than the gcd to cast them. Its only moderately decent because the horrible scaling of DOTs with spell damage. Haste only helps warlocks and spriests to put our weakest filler spells in, Mind Flay and Shadowbolt.
From a design standpoint, I really dont think that we should have a stat thats only purpose is to help us cast our weakest and worst spell more often. Plain and simple DOTs need to utilize haste or crit or something that will help them scale better.
Haste is a horrible for DOT classes. It does nothing for our dots at all, other than the gcd to cast them. Its only moderately decent because the horrible scaling of DOTs with spell damage. Haste only helps warlocks and spriests to put our weakest filler spells in, Mind Flay and Shadowbolt.
From a design standpoint, I really dont think that we should have a stat thats only purpose is to help us cast our weakest and worst spell more often. Plain and simple DOTs need to utilize haste or crit or something that will help them scale better.
Isn't haste on a 1 to 1 scale with spell dmg for Sunwell Shadow Priests already? I know it would help out affliction locks, but when you talk about it only effecting the weakest spells, mind flay and shadowbolt, something seems wrong with your argument. I don't think locks spam shadowbolt because it's weak. And Mindflay takes up a significant portion of a shadow priest's rotation.
Shadow priests spam mind flay because its their only direct damage spell that isn't on a cooldown. Haste is 1:1 with spell damage for shadow priests because mind flay scales so poorly with +damage due to having a terrible spell damage coefficient. In other words, haste is only good because of mind flay's shortcomings , not because mind flay is good. And mind flay is spammed because there is no other option.
Isn't haste on a 1 to 1 scale with spell dmg for Sunwell Shadow Priests already? I know it would help out affliction locks, but when you talk about it only effecting the weakest spells, mind flay and shadowbolt, something seems wrong with your argument. I don't think locks spam shadowbolt because it's weak. And Mindflay takes up a significant portion of a shadow priest's rotation.
It's not weak, but it's the "weakest". General rule of DPS is to cast high DPS spells before lower DPS, moving down the ladder when the other spells are on cooldown or can't be cast for some reason. For affliction warlocks and shadow priests, there are several spells above shadowbolt/mindflay on the ladder. They only cast shadowbolt/mindflay because they can't cast the more powerful spells (cooldowns, DoTs are still ticking).
So haste affects shadowbolt/mindflay, and that helps, but it would be better if it affected the higher spells on the DPS ladder equally.
Once you reach a certain amount of mana regeneration (and the last change certainly helped there) then Mindflay becomes a filler spell you actually clip intentionaly as soon as any from the priest's other spells become ready, because that increases DPS.
Now haste does speed up the mindflay, but it does also push down the GCD on the other spells meaning you just can cast more in the same interval - which is good. Spellhaste is a very good stat for shadowpriests once the baseline +damage is good. Incidentally, due to the shortening of mindflay's channel duration, it actually makes mindflay more valuable again.
There are a lot of shadowpriests that aren't sold on spellhaste. Your cast time starts to differ and you got to learn a new rhythm when your haste changes a lot. But once you got over that and you don't just add minimal spellhaste, it really shines. Not everyone likes it and up to a certain point you can just continue to stack +spelldamage. However if you want to maximize, you'll need spellhaste, and lots of it. It's a very good stat in the high-end.
Affliction locks on the other hand can only cast SB's, because their DoTs don't run faster and since they are meant to deal damage with DoT's, if there is only one target they can deal damage to and not spread around DoTs over many mobs at once, they don't really gain that much. They just can "wait longer" due to shorter GCD until they refresh their DoTs. Of course they can cast SBs in between, but a shadow priest has more spells at hand to cast and any sooner I can cast a Mindblast or SW means I can deal more damage, be that with shorter cast time or saved time due to shorter GCD.
Spell haste is just about 1:1 with spell damage for affliction locks as well, it affects all gcd's including lifetap/dark pact (which is big considering affliction spends more time lifetaping/DP than destruction does), allowing more time for shadowbolts between dot refreshes. Shadowbolt is the weakest part of affliction's rotation certainly, but it isn't nearly as bad as mind flay is.
Is there any leaked mechanic how Blizzard gonna make prot warrior/paladin use same gear?
Only solution what I could think even be less viable is make talent in prot/ret tree to convert/give spell damage from block value.(1 : 1)
Even with only spell power sword and any shield protadin would get enough for MT duty and with some high stamina holy paladin gear would be nice in trash duty. [Hammer of Judgement] + [Sword Breaker's Bulwark] with +40dam enchant and defensive gem would give 501spell damage. This would make prot paladin easier to gear without compromising defensive stats too much.
Maybe 1:1 would be too high ratio but thats not my point.
How about we don't just throw ideas in, and wait until we get some decent info? I think everyone can agree that it's very likely that plate loot is going to be compressed as the other types have, and there are various ways that it could be done. I suggest we wait for some info (next alpha patch perhaps?) before continuing this debate.
8) Feign Death - Please tell me no one is fooled by this in pvp anymore...
Fooled no, but it *is* a type of spell interupt (cast/channeled spells being used on a Hunter who feigns will break). So it's marginally useful (unless they try and pyroblast you, in which case they have it comming...)
The problem with the Hunter mechanics is they're much easy to use in most situations than those of other classes. Traps are quite powerful, sure, but they need someone to stand right on top of them (their activation radius got nerfed at some point.. 2.3 or thereabout), Intimidate has a 1 minute CD, other classes have multiple stuns like that which don't require a live pet, and Wyvern Sting has both a 2 minute CD and breaks on *any* damage.
Sure, we have both wingclip and concussive shot, where Shamans only have frost shock and warriors hamstring. But this sort of "joat" stuff really bites us here - frost shock can be kept up perpetually unlike concussive, and hamstring means the warrior is at his DPS range and we're not, allready. There's only a narrow band where we can keep where they can't either intercept us or melee us.
It's not casters which tend to slaugher us, IME. (well locks, but we can turn them nice and squishy if they stand arround so there's some comeback...)
Is there any leaked mechanic how Blizzard gonna make prot warrior/paladin use same gear?
Only solution what I could think even be less viable is make talent in prot/ret tree to convert/give spell damage from block value.(1 : 1)
Even with only spell power sword and any shield protadin would get enough for MT duty and with some high stamina holy paladin gear would be nice in trash duty. [Hammer of Judgement] + [Sword Breaker's Bulwark] with +40dam enchant and defensive gem would give 501spell damage. This would make prot paladin easier to gear without compromising defensive stats too much.
Maybe 1:1 would be too high ratio but thats not my point.
Look at the changes to warrior's shield block: one charge, 30 second cooldown (20 with talents). Paladins will not be getting either gear or talents to make the uncrushable by TBC standards, because that mechanic is going out the window. Expect to neither recieve, nor need, any sort of help along these lines.
06/21/08, 5:46 PM
means I can deal more damage, be that with shorter cast time or saved time due to shorter GCD.
Similar Threads
