I also wouldn't be surprised if the second tier of raiding was already under development and waiting in the wings on WLK release, ready for the first or second major content patch. Just because it's not included in the game doesn't mean that it's not under development. Imagine how TBC would have been if T5 had been as developed as it was at release, but allowed to develop internally until 2.1 instead of being piecemeal hotfixed. Or possibly less-developed at release, with more attention on polishing Kara. I think what they're planning is totally the play to make, and it's realistic that Naxx itself will span enough difficulty range to count as two half-tiers.
I'm somewhat surprised/disappointed that apparently there are only going to be four max-level WotLK 5-mans (TBC, of course, had 7.. 8 after 2.4.) Maybe Blizzard devs are using existence of heroics to not have to create lots of endgame 5-man content, TBC still had 15 total 5-mans versus WotLK's 12. I suppose Blizzard is probably also planning on having more players take part in 10-man progression, but I'm not sure if this is a safe thing to assume, given that it's not like 10-man progression is expected to become easier to do... it'll still be heavily tiered, not like there's an UBRS planned for WotLK. Maybe they'll make up for this lack of endgame content by having more endgame solo/world content..
Would that really be a bad thing though? As it is most the BC instances are pretty much ignored after you run them once or twice. Hopefully though due to the decrease in the number of instances they will tokenize the loot in 5mans... or at the very least add token drops to the heroic versions. Besides that the only thing I hope they do is atleast adjust the difficulty right for all the instances along w/ how many badges you get from them so we don't end up with everyone running Mech/Underbog and ignoring everything else again. Along with that I hope they also add in a new 5man when they add in the 25/10man raids, a 5man w/ slightly higher ilvl epic loot every once in awhile would be awesome for alts.
I suppose I neglected the fact that the Tier 7 instances will really be both Tier 7 and Tier 8 instances, since the entry-level raids will probably be the 10-man versions, leading into the 25-man versions.
But even so, my main gripe is that Naxx really isn't new content, one of the new raids will probably be a one-shot, so at most we'll have one new raid full raid instance available upon release. I can understand why content is staggered any everything, but given that they aren't making a heavy investment in new 5-mans or raids... where's the effort going? The main map? I mean, it's looking pretty awesome, but still..
That said, I'd rather see them delay the second tier of raiding rather than have SSC/TK 2.0.
I suppose I neglected the fact that the Tier 7 instances will really be both Tier 7 and Tier 8 instances, since the entry-level raids will probably be the 10-man versions, leading into the 25-man versions.
But even so, my main gripe is that Naxx really isn't new content, one of the new raids will probably be a one-shot, so at most we'll have one new raid full raid instance available upon release. I can understand why content is staggered any everything, but given that they aren't making a heavy investment in new 5-mans or raids... where's the effort going? The main map? I mean, it's looking pretty awesome, but still..
That said, I'd rather see them delay the second tier of raiding rather than have SSC/TK 2.0.
Naxx is new unexperienced content for a huge percentage of players. I think that is reason enough to release it as a raid.
As for where the effort is going, death knights and 70-80 content. Looking back, I honestly feel that of all of TBC, the content we had access to on release accounted for 80% of the content in all of the expansion. And it looks like its the exact same situation, we are going to have all the effort put into making an amazing 70-80 experience, but once you hit 80, the new content ceases because the team is all working on the next expansion.
I don't really want to focus on what Wotlk will be 6 months after its released, and we have all cleared Naxx, and are waiting for new content. I know Blizzard will provide me an amazing 6 months of leveling, and questing, and raiding. After that initial 6 months, I will likely cancel my registration until the next expansion, a 12month wait.
The mistake they made as they admitted during the panel was releasing BT while there was no need for it at the time.
So instead of the hardcore raiders having to wait for 6 months between BT and sunwell they will need to wait 1-2 months between a tier being finished and a new tier being introduced.
Dont forget that naxx with its size as well as 2 addition raids can probably sustain the community for a good 2 months maybe even more allowing blizzard more time for the next tier and to learn from mistakes.
Staggering the content is very much a good thing; that goes for 5 mans as well as raid instances I think. If you have 10 content options, you'll focus on the 2-3 with the highest return, "wasting" the other content. A new 5-man garners more attention that it would have if included at launch.
In many ways Bliz had too many 5-mans at launch. In my view, Auchindoun would have worked better if it had been added around 2.2 (perhaps when a properly tuned T5 went live), tuned to provide slightly better rewards than existing 5-mans. That A) Gives people bored of existing 5-mans something to focus on and B) Gives people stalled in T4 a bit of a gear boost. (That's essentially what Bliz did in Vanilla with Dire Maul.)
Really, I think the ideal is to have most of the launch 5-mans be aimed at people leveling with only 2-3 max level 5-mans (designed to gear people up for heroics). However it then becomes really important for them to release a steady stream of new max-level 5 mans.
The BC heroics had the problem of only dropping 4 good items, sometimes meaning you couldn't use any of them at all, and usually meaning you couldn't use any of them for your spec. Which made heroics purely about the badges, which made everyone only want to do the best badge/hour ones.
Perhaps you could still pump out 12 or so at release, but have items that require you get a token from each of the 12? That way instead of everyone running the SP and Mech equivalents over and over, they'd have to do all of them in equal quantities.
The BC heroics had the problem of only dropping 4 good items, sometimes meaning you couldn't use any of them at all, and usually meaning you couldn't use any of them for your spec. Which made heroics purely about the badges, which made everyone only want to do the best badge/hour ones.
Perhaps you could still pump out 12 or so at release, but have items that require you get a token from each of the 12? That way instead of everyone running the SP and Mech equivalents over and over, they'd have to do all of them in equal quantities.
Bad idea. We're already expecting heroic badges, T7 badges, T8 badges and T9 badges. Further subdividing heroic badges into each heroic would further unnecessarily complicate things.
Rather, I approve of the direction Blizzard is taking insofar as heroics always dropping their own tier of gear, even from base 70 dungeons such as Mechanar. People only ran heroics for badges because as you said, the drops were barely useful aside from the final boss epics.
Even though non-base 70 dungeons got new sets of drops, the fact they were still ilevel 115 blues meant that it wasn't always worth the hassle, with the exception of stuff that couldn't be found anywhere else. Paladin healing plate shoulders? Ramparts and only ramparts. Totem of the Astral Winds? Libram of Avengement?
If Blizzard delivers as they promised and gives heroics their own tier of gear that's across-the-board better than their normal 5-man equivalents, I have no doubt all of the heroics will get their due play.
I just don't see it, heroic "tier" gear would likely be worse than Naxx 10, just like current heroic gear is worse than Kara gear. So why would people run heroics for loot drops when they could just do Naxx 10?
Because Naxx 10 is too hard to be done in quest greens for the average raider?
Experienced raiders will blow through Naxx, but it's going to take newer guilds some time to work their way through it. Heroics will provide a way to gear up while one's guild is stuck on Maexxna or whatnot.
Heroic SH (for example) is harder than most of Kara. Even some of the easier heroics tend to be harder gear checks than Kara. They're going to have to change their balancing a bit to make that work.
I just don't see it, heroic "tier" gear would likely be worse than Naxx 10, just like current heroic gear is worse than Kara gear. So why would people run heroics for loot drops when they could just do Naxx 10?
Same reason people ran heroics in BC? To gear up faster and fill up holes in the itemization.
I just don't see it, heroic "tier" gear would likely be worse than Naxx 10, just like current heroic gear is worse than Kara gear. So why would people run heroics for loot drops when they could just do Naxx 10?
In addition to what Anedris said, we can safely assume that Naxx10 will be a 7-day lockout, while heroics will remain on a daily lockout timer. This means that heroics can still be used to fill gear holes, and it is very likely that certain gear slots (the relic slot in particular) are unique enough that it is possible for a very strong relic to drop in a heroic/max level dungeon and not get upgraded for a long time. Additionally, not all small raiding guilds will have the numbers to raid within 1-2 weeks of the wotlk release, and those members who levelled up faster can start working on their gear sets while they wait for the rest to catch up.
While we are on the subject, I am curious about the great WotLK gear condensation and how it relates to relic-slot items. Given all the discussion in this and other threads about steps Blizzard has taken to condense stats so that multiple classes/specs get similar use out of particular items, does anyone have any inkling of how Blizzard is going to address relics, which by their very nature are unique to particular classes? The most likely solution seems to me to be a "relic token" that can be turned in to a related NPC (faction vendor, most likely), although it wouldn't surprise me if Blizzard just kept the entire system as is.
While we are on the subject, I am curious about the great WotLK gear condensation and how it relates to relic-slot items. Given all the discussion in this and other threads about steps Blizzard has taken to condense stats so that multiple classes/specs get similar use out of particular items, does anyone have any inkling of how Blizzard is going to address relics, which by their very nature are unique to particular classes? The most likely solution seems to me to be a "relic token" that can be turned in to a related NPC (faction vendor, most likely), although it wouldn't surprise me if Blizzard just kept the entire system as is.
I really hope Relics are going to go onto the rep vendors for raids. Not only does it help condense loot tables (Urgh, another damn prot pally libram) but it allows them to really tailor relics to "offspecs" without upsetting people because said offspecs are rare. And of course it makes relics much easier to obtain, instead of still trying to PuG a Lurker group for the darn libram.
Having them off the badge vendor(s) would also work like they did in 2.3.
I just don't see it, heroic "tier" gear would likely be worse than Naxx 10, just like current heroic gear is worse than Kara gear. So why would people run heroics for loot drops when they could just do Naxx 10?
Once you've done Naxx, where else do you get loot the other days of the week? Heroics
Yes, heroic tier gear would be worse than Naxx 10, but there's more than enough room for a middle-ground. Kara has ilevel 115 epics, while heroics have ilevel 115 blues and ilevel 105 epics from the last boss.
An analogous system would be something like Naxx dropping ilevel 115 epics, normal dungeons dropping ilevel 115 blues and heroics dropping ilevel 120 blues and/or ilevel 110 epics.
To elaborate, the problem with the current heroic system is that the base 70 dungeons offer no new loot besides the one end boss epic, and non-base 70 dungeons still offer ilevel 115s, even if it's different loot. My idea is that you insert an entirely new tier of loot between normal drops and Naxx10 drops.
I've looked around but am still unsure if this is appropriate or not - if not, then by all means nuke this post.
Insulating Bindings
Binds when picked up
Plate
Wrist
788 Armor
+27 Stamina
+32 Intellect
Requires Level 71
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 20.
Equip: Increases spell power by 26.
Greaves of the Blue Flight
Binds when picked up
Plate
Feet
1238 Armor
+34 Stamina
+43 Intellect
Requires Level 71
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 26.
Equip: Increases spell power by 37.
While it's still early days, I think it's pretty safe to assume there won't be any major mechanics changes for Holy Paladins (strength -> spell power conversion talents, etc). This also says to me that the devs are comfortable with gear that only one spec out of nine plate specs will use taking up space on boss loot tables.
Once you've done Naxx, where else do you get loot the other days of the week? Heroics
If Naxx (and the gruul & mag equivalent 10 mans, lets not forget they will exist this time around) is really actually difficult for people, most of their playing week will be taken up with raiding it. I guess if they live up to their promise of 1 hour or less instances, maybe people will be able to fit them in easier, but when you consider people will also have to schedule time farming for consumables and whatever other gold sink bliz dream up, will non-hardcore players really have the time to be running heroics when they could use that time to attempt 10 mans?
If people don't have time to actually do the heroics, then the loot inside only matters if its better than what they could actually get from Naxx/Kara, which is not the case now. I don't expect it to be the case then either. Again, the idea is to place a tier of itemization BETWEEN normals and Naxx/Kara.
Yes, it's quite possible for Naxx to be time-consuming enough such that a player will not have any more time for heroics, but you also have to consider that for someone really struggling in Naxx, heroics can and will be a source of pre-raid drops which will ease you into Naxx. The loot matters.
If you define "max level instances" as instances which drop ilvl 115 blues and provide reputation with their respective faction until exalted you have Shattered Halls, Steamvaults, Shadow Labyrinth, Black Morass, Mechanar, Botanica and Arcatraz. Sethekk Halls only partially fit into this (only Ikiss drops ilvl 115 items, and until 2.3 reputation gains stopped at honored).
I actually thought a while about what exactly is a "max level instance". I arbitrarily chose to visit the WoW webpage and going through the dungeon list including all dungeons that had a level rating beginning with 70. When doing this, Black Morass and Mechanar fall out of the list, as they start with 69.
It's really arbitrary though, but if they don't count as max-level instance, then there's probably really not much difference between now and then. But in the end, does it really matter? As soon as you can, you will go to heroics, especially as they are differently itemized and so should be far more attractive loot-wise. And then we have 12 heroics at our disposal, basically the same we do now.
I have read the comments from WWI on mmo-champion, and while some news are awesome, i got worried by the focus the developers put on WotLK being easy. In particular, new bosses simpler so that they can be more easily understood by new player, more easily accessible patterns (i personally like the idea that some recipes are rare and hard to get), easier heroics, shorter dungeons ...
Will there be any challenges left for us who liked doing unnerfed heroics in blue gear back at the beginning of BC? I remember our first heroic BM ... it was such an achievement. Now its just another farm content. I mean, it is ok now, with all the new gear and such, but does Blizzard intent to nerf the initial versions of heroics as well?
I also wouldn't be surprised if the second tier of raiding was already under development and waiting in the wings on WLK release,
One thing that's visible is the dungeon design maps.
The Occulus (first on panel) was initially designed on april '07. Yes, 07, not 08. The third dungeon shown was from may '07; I couldn't see a date on the second map. WotLK has been worked on for over a year. Of course, you have to make the block model, then full art work, then mob pathing, scripting and so on, which makes a pretty big content pipeline after all, but it's probably already running on all instances and raids for the full length of the expansion.
I've looked around but am still unsure if this is appropriate or not - if not, then by all means nuke this post.
...
While it's still early days, I think it's pretty safe to assume there won't be any major mechanics changes for Holy Paladins (strength -> spell power conversion talents, etc). This also says to me that the devs are comfortable with gear that only one spec out of nine plate specs will use taking up space on boss loot tables.
Paladins are completely "not done". At all. As anybody who logged in a Paladin during the WWI, there's zero changes on the class for now, except the generic itemization change (unification of heal/dmg). I wouldn't put too much stock in the leaked alpha items; there's pretty big changes coming in the pipeline (the last alpha build basically unified heal/dmg and nothing else).
I think they should bring out the new content rather slow. Heroics and Naxxramas could be more than enough for the first month of the expansion. I liked a lot how the arena saison didn't start right away in TBC. So everyone had time to prepare, test talent builds and absolutely no one had to power level.
I like competition but rushing the levelling isn't really fun. I enjoy levelling, reading the quest texts, having time. With three or four raid instances out right away the levelling tends to become quite hectic.
Our raid decided to ban any spoilers on the website apart from stuff like game mechanics or classes and talents. I want to explore again and enjoy the stuff. So I won't take part in the beta this time and I want to enjoy quite polished levelling content in Northrend.
It's just a waste of time to develop levelling content with a lot very beautiful ideas and then already publishing so much endgame content that no one can really enjoy the levelling. Perhabs the best thing would be to open up the first raid instance after something like two weeks. This could lorewise be the time for the Nekropolis to travel from the plaquelands.
Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde
Perhabs the best thing would be to open up the first raid instance after something like two weeks. Thsi could lorewise be the time for the Nekropolis to travel from the plaquelands.
I logged in on a mage to find myself in front of Kel'thuzad (well, not exactly in front, as the area was heavily patrolled by tons of undead troops). So he's already there
06/29/08, 7:29 PM
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