Addled

Blizzard says a lot of things. I don't necessarily take their word as carven in stone until it's actually done. Also, there's plenty of minibosses still left; I believe we still have 2-3 Old Gods unaccounted for, their assorted armies, plus maybe Blizzard could grab some insane dragon from the Emerald Dream (Hello Emeriss 2.0) and work them into the storyline.



I might be alone in this, but I fully buy the idea that Malygos' might be fully sane. I mean, think of it from his point of view. You come out of a daze of insanity, then your lieutenants report about the mortals' dangerous magic use, bringing the Burning Legion to Azeroth, the general destruction in the world (Kalimdor and EK being blasted, and the Maelstrom), and you can very easily come to the conclusion that the mortal races are dangerous to the world and must be extinguished. Malygos is doubly weighed down by the fact that he's supposed to be the protector of magic in the world, and his failures are plain to see.

If the Wyrmrest was some kind of important junction for ley lines, or held some fountain of magical power, then it's entirely possible that Malygos is invading the area to utilize the magic to destroy the mortal races.

As I write this reply, I keep thinking of Azuregos. If you did the AQ40 opening questline, you have to talk to Azuregos, and he ends up saying (paraphrased) "I didn't want to hold onto a key for some wannabe hero, I want to be left alone to my studies". Azuregos is a blue dragon under the command of Malygos, we very might well see him again in Northrend, and he might have some magical trinkets he found in Azshara.

 

Ukerric

She's also there because there are indications that the Infinite Dragonflight, which are meddling with time, appear to be around, and might ally themselves with Malygos. (see spoilage on the wiki and dkinfo)

 

Kumar

That would mean they might be trying to stop Arthas from commiting the Strat massacare? Does Malygos have something to gain if Arthas doesn't exist?

 

PsyBomb

It's a bit of a stretch, but if Arthas never went crazy, wouldn't the original Sunwell still be around? It was destroyed during the Scourge invasion. That's a LOT of power coming back around.

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Tacitus

Arthas not becoming the champion of the Lich King could mean that the Sunwell was never corrupted by Kel'Thuzad, which would mean he wouldn't be there to summon Archimonde to the world therefore no Battle of Mount Hyjal, also maybe the races would never even set sail for Kalimdor...

It's the same thing as with The Dark Portal. It happened and undoing it could make anything happen.

Brotherhood, Peace, Unity

Welcome back, Comrade

 

BlackCadian

With the WOTLK beta date drawing closer I wondered if anyone of the EJ users that receive a Beta key would be interested in forming a guild on the respective servers. Personally I'd love to know that I'm surrounded by competent people that know what they're doing, which will also make leveling, 5mans and eventually maybe even raiding MUCH more enjoyable.

I wasn't sure if this idea warrants a new thread so this is a kind of test-post, so what do you think?

"If teh alliance had shamens, we wud win more battlegrounses" - random ally (Pre BC)

 

Tyrian

I love that idea, after having read many posts by users here but never having spoken directly to almost any - being in the same guild whilst poking around the Beta would be a great experience.

 

Mizerok

I am sure that they have a plan to get as many people together on the WotLK Beta as they possibly can between their guild and many other endgame guilds that currently exist in WoW. It's a great idea for those whom take the Beta as seriously as they should and see it as a quick learning experience and stepping stone for their guild once WotLK hits retail servers.

 

Tonyk

NerZhul could have picked someone else if Arthas was killed. Stopping Arthas wouldn't stop the Sunwell from being defiled - it would have been some other basketcase.

 

Zaphid

That "someone else" could've listened to Uther instead of his own anger, we can argue about this forever without ever coming to conclusion.

Anyway, Blizzard is probably going to announce more details after 2.4.3, because that would theoretically be the last 2.0 patch and people are going to leave without the WotLK carrot to keep them going.

 

Celebrimor

Its not like the eastern kingdoms were prepared enough to fight the scourge with or without arthas, it was only a question about time. The weak initial scourge attack were more to lure arthas out instead of just to conquer Azeroth.

Also Arthas helped the elves fight off Archimonde by telling Illidan about the skull of ghuldan, without that the battle for MT hyjal would be lost since the demons would've conquered Kalimdor that much faster and even this time it was a stretch that the alliance won. And do not say that they could have gotten more preparation, they would just slaughter each other since the elves did not believe in the danger untill they saw themselves that demons walked their lands, so the longer untill the demons arrived the weaker the alliance would get.

Arthas is not the biggest evil guy, and even if he were not corrupted he would not be able to fight the lich kings armies.

 

What Do I Type Here?

The interesting thing that they may or may not dive into is that Arthas really isn't evil enough to the point where killing him won't be a moral gray area to at least a few opinionated players, which is kind of an issue that hasn't been explored yet in this game with any current boss. Even new players(to the warcraft universe) who don't particularly care about lore might grow attached to "good Arthas" while doing whatever quests and CoT instances he shows up in. The culling of Stratholme is just plain questionable whether it was right or wrong. Burning the ships was sketchy but not certainly not evil, and everything after than can just be blamed on him being corrupted by frostmourn (though from that point on he does do some spectacularly evil stuff)

Can he be "saved", particularily if he is severed from Frostmourn/Ner'Zul? Well probably not, and we will probably just kill him, but it remains an issue...

 

Incoherence

Not so much that, but that Illidan takes the Skull of Guldan and kills Tichondrius with its power. But yeah, we're stretching some here.

And then the whole Infinite Dragonflight story runs smack into [holy quest spoilers, Batman] this and this, and... my head hurts.

 

Stopokingme

For that matter you could then argue what Archimonde could've done with a powerful artifact like that if Illidan hadn't taken it. A matter of which is the lesser evil.

 

Marek

I think fighting (and killing) Illidan was not different in this regard.

Granted that he was reckless in his fight against first the Burning Legion and later against the Scourge, but his reasoning was generally sound:
- absorbed the power of the Skull of Guldan to defeat Tichondrius, so latter couldn't participate in the Battle of Mount Hyjal
- trying to melt the Icegrown glacier to stop the Lich King (granted he was tasked by Kil'jaeden, but he didn't really had a choice)
- allying with his brother to save Tyrande from the scourge
- continuing trying to stop Arthas from merging with the Lich King
- went insane because he was defeated by Arthas (and maybe because of the corrupting powers of the Skull of Guldan)

Beside the old gods and arguably some demons (I simply can't imagine a friendly pit lord) most characters started out as good beings: Sargeras, the Eredar, Arthas, Illidan, the four green dragons, Neltharion, Malygos and so on.

 

• QControl

Yay, this means my pet theory about the Infinite Dragonflight might actually be true.

 

Tainter

I share your sentiments. To me Illidan (I know that he's not Arthas) was never a really evil guy in WC3 or TFT. He cared for the people he liked, saved his love, fought against the Legion and did many other good deeds. And that AFTER being imprisoned for thousands of years. And he even had a go at getting rid of the Lich King. Some say that he was just ordered to do that, but has he really been following orders that closely?

I was very disappointed when Blizzard turned him into "the all pervading evil of TBC", without even so much as a doubt to his personality.

And now it looks as if Arthas will suffer the same fate. Shame that.

 

Benita

Illidan also then fled to Outland with his army, invaded it in fact and laid claim to all of it. He taunts everyone who wins minor victories against him and "dare to enter his domain". He sent an army to Shattrah to also conquer that and the story about BT is rather to strike back and free Outland from what ive understood. Rather a conqueror than a villain really, at least i havent seen Illidans doomsday devices.
I agree though that the plot of freeing Outland to actually gain the help of the Scryers, Aldors and Naaru to stop the Burning Legion from taking over Azeroth wouldve been better introduced at the beginning.
At least it made no sense to build up Illidan as the endboss of an expansion called "The Burning Crusade" if hes an enemy to the Burning Legion.

As for wotlk, i would guess that even if Arthas is not fully evil, the Lich King is and thats who you fight actually. Could be a clichee ending of just seperating them both in the endfight and Arthas thanking the heroes.

 

rhea

Arthas was long lost even before getting Frostmourne. I see no reason not to kill him

 

Legh

Well, to nitpick, Malygos isn't a dragonflight, Malygos is an Aspect, the lead of a Dragonflight (his dragonflight being the blue one).

There are 5 total Dragonflights, and relative Aspects, known to us at the moment (excluding the "new" and still mysterious infinite dragonflight, and the Netherwings, which are pretty much associable with the blue dragonflight now).

• Bronze Dragonflight - keepers of time, safeguarding destiny and fate. They've always been depicted as being more watcher-type rather than taking-action-type (even if we have the events in AQ and CoT showing that they can take active stance). Their aspect is Nozdormu, whose location/intents are currently unknown (with rumors having him behind the infinite dragonflight).
• Red Dragonflight - safeguarding all living beings on earth. Krasus/Korialstrasz (consort of Alexstrasza) has been behind pretty much any major event in the known history. Alexstrasza is the Aspect of the Red, she was captured and imprisoned in the past by the Horde.
• Blue Dragonflight - keepers of magic. Well, wannabe keepers of magic. That's the whole problem causing Malygos (the Aspect of the Blue) to go haywire with his whole plan to exterminate magic-users around. During his insanity, pretty much everyone and their dog used magic to do their bidding, often causing huge troubles in the way. He seems to be in a "oh shit" moment, and trying to fix his own mistakes/negligence. On a side note, the Blue Dragonflight was betrayed and almost exterminated by the Black Dragonflight/Deathwing during the War of the Ancients.
• Green Dragonflight - probably the aspect we know less about, they guard the growing wilds. The Aspect of the Green is Ysera, and of her we just know the current whereabouts: The Emerald Dream (which spawned the 4 Dragon of Nightmare in Vanilla, so most likely not a really happy place at the moment).
• Black Dragonflight - formerly protectors of the earth, after Neltharion (The Black Aspect) was corrupted by the old gods and became Deathwing they've always been depicted as the bad guys. Exterminating or trying to the other aspects, trying to take over the Alliance (Onyxia) or the Horde (Nefarian in the Black Mountain), generally conspiring behind the scenes (Netherwing spawning). The only thing we know about Deathwing is that he is in a pretty bad shape at the moment.

So you can see why Malygos is in a position of "advantage" in regards of the other aspects/dragonflights at the moment. He's back in himself, he's pissed, and he is supposed to have full control of all that is magic. Only one of the other dragonflight actually has their respective Aspect in good shape/presence of mind (the Red), and due to the past events I guess they very much rather not risk her again. The other Aspects seem to be confused/uncertain about the reliability/presence of their leaderships and act via lieutenants/placeholders subleaders trying to not take decisions when they can avoid it.

Do not forget also that last time the Dragonflights and Aspects descended on the field together to help the races of the world, one of them turned on the others, exterminating one flight and maddening one Aspect, and that a little huge vortex spawned in the middle of the world, sundering the continent in the two parts we know today. They may want to try and avoid something as big from happening again, and hence not really going all-out against Malygos quite yet, trying to recover the situation using other less-impacting ways (like, the help of a players' raid ).

 

Lysara

Arthas has always been an interesting character. I really don't see him as purely evil.

The Culling is a good example. Killing off innocent people for a crime they did not commit isn't very good, I agree. Yet, did he have much choice? It was either that or wait for them to turn into the Lich King's minions, which could've potentially been far more dangerous not just to Arthas but to the entire Eastern Kingdoms. Instead he decided to kill them before they turned into unnatural monsters that are forced to mercilessly kill the people they love. Some might argue he saved them from a far worse fate.

And imagine that Arthas, Uther and Jaina decided to wait for the citizens to turn into the Undead before fighting them. Stratholme is a big city, so that's a hell of a lot of Undead. They might've gotten overrun, resulting in a whole army of Scourge to roam freely throughout the Eastern Kingdoms and they could've possibly travelled far more south, destroying Southshore, Refuge Pointe, Hammerfall and Menethil Harbor. I doubt they'd be able to get past the Dwarves, but that's still a massive blow to the Alliance. And let's not even begin to think what would happen if Jaina died, the Alliance and Horde would still be at war.


And Arthas was actually very kind, even after he rerolled to Death Knight. I was replaying through WC3 and TFT and I was surprised at how caring he is. He often goes out of his way, putting himself at great risk, just to rescue some Acolytes or Ghouls.

 

Terp

It's the same with trying to retcon Malfurion into this caring brother through the books, when throughout the entire WCIII campaign he was nothing but a jerk to Illidan. He totally freaks on Tyrande when she wants to free Illidan. I really don't remember anything about Illidan assaulting Shatt though. Guess I never paid enough attention to that horrible tour you have to take.

Now that's something I hope doesn't return. I don't think anyone enjoyed doing the CoT/Shatt tours on multiple characters. There's no reason to force story down someone's throat when they aren't interested, especially in slow scrawling blocks of text that you can't afk through. Hopefully the MgT mini-cutscene is indicative of Blizz understanding this.

Anyways, with regards to making sure Arthas goes mad, the two things that he did for certain as Arthas and not Minion Of The Lich King was create Sylvanas and give the skull of Gul'dan to Illidan. Both have pretty huge repercussions, what with no Forsaken and Outland staying in control of the Burning Legion. The whole idea of preserving the massacre of Stratholme is pretty interesting, it could mean working together or against pretty much all parties involved. And also killing lots of townsfolk.

 

Legh

I may be mistaken (as I can't find a proper source for it), but I am pretty sure Illidan got the Skull of Gul'dan by himself during one of WCIII missions.

 

bv728

The Scryers are the army sent to assault Shatt.

Lore, amiright?

Illidan, I think, is cast in much the same light as Malygos will; a villian by neccessity. He thinks the only way forward is the dark one, and once he's committed to using this power and Betrayed everyone, over and over, he finds himself left with no allies, only enemies, doing horrible things in the name of survival.

I kind of expect, however, that Malygos won't die; I expect part of his defeat will involve the other Aspects showing up and talking sense into him, at which point you get into Icecrown with his help or something.

 

Cube

The major failing of Blizzard in TBC, from a story perspective, is that the T6 instances have very little to do with the overall storyline. The Ashtongue story is interesting, it doesn't really impact the overall Burning Crusade story, because Illidan doesn't have anything to do with them.

From the beginning, you're running into Pathaleon, and how he's doing... something to the Outlands. Eventually, you learn that he's one of Kael's minions, and the entirety of Netherstorm is dedicated to uncovering Kael's true allegiance-to the Burning Legion, rather than Illidan. The Sunwell storyline reinforces this, as a continuation of the event after you kill Kael. The Sunfury Blood Elves are in every zone of the Outlands, too. At first, you're lead to believe that they're following Illidan through Kael, but after Netherstorm, it's really not clear who they're following.

Shadowmoon, on the other hand, doesn't really have any representatives from the main TBC factions(Sha'Tar, etc.). It has the Aldor and Scryers wanting to kill off the Illidari for their attacks on Shatt, but that's about it. In fact, most of the quests are you screwing stuff up for everyone-i.e. Gorefiend.

Also, Illidan is the most anti-climactic end boss in the game, both from the encounter design(can your MT shield block?) to the quests rewards you get from it(no title, no head, just a necklace that ports you to BT to kill him again!). The quest chain leading up to him was one of the best implemented in the game, but the ending was a huge letdown.