Wrath of Lich King Stuff (was 'Blizzcon' thread) - Page 206

gorsameth · 07/07/08, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Terp

Anyways, with regards to making sure Arthas goes mad, the two things that he did for certain as Arthas and not Minion Of The Lich King was create Sylvanas and give the skull of Gul'dan to Illidan.

Sorry but i do seem to recall that arthas had already claimed frostmourn by the time he killed sylvanas and as such was pretty much a puppet of the lich king.
Furthermore i do believe in the cutscene where Arthas tells Illidan about the skull of gul'dan he even mentions how his master (the lich king) would benefit from weaking the burning legion. After all once Azeroth has been conquered ner'zul is useless and as good as dead.

rhea · 07/07/08, 12:41 PM

Yes WC3 spoilage: first is the human campaign - Arthas culls stratholme Then claims frostmourne, then starts the UD campaign (Arthas kills sylvanas) and after that attacks Dalaran iirc.

... Are we going to go through whole history?

aleyro · 07/07/08, 1:01 PM

Why, exactly, are we going back to the culling? Meaning, why are the Keepers of Time exposing this event to us? I think that there might be an interesting twist to this, that ultimately leads to an interesting device for explaining death knights.

If the infinite dragonflight is attempting to stop the culling, and our job is to ensure that they fail, then we will be killing civilians along side Arthas. having the player base experiencing that in the past would justify, from a lore perspective, the rise of death knights in the present.

Cube · 07/07/08, 1:33 PM

The overall reason is because Blizzard thought it was a cool mission to re-create.

The lore reason that the infinite dragonflight is trying to screw with the history might be because the Culling is the first direct defeat of the Burning Legion in the third war. It stopped them from getting a LOT of reinforcements and a primary base of operations in Lorderon.

Without it taking place, Arthas wouldn't have gone to Northrend, or have taken control of the Scourge. While a LOT of good would have been done, the Scourge-under the direct control of Archimonde-would have probably taken control of all of Azeroth.

Terp · 07/07/08, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by rhea

... Are we going to go through whole history?

The intention was to point out more Arthas specific acts of evil. Reasons why the KoT would be interested in making sure that he stays the champion of the lich king. The logic being that the Lich King would have found someone powerful enough to be his replacement anyway, thus the importance placed on acts Arthas did on his own volition. Seeking a humiliating revenge on an annoying elf and goading a night elf into becoming a demon both seem rather personal forms of malice.

Probably way more in depth than the "Screwing with history is bad mmkay" explanation that seems destined, but eh.

Emeraude · 07/07/08, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Incoherence

Not so much that, but that Illidan takes the Skull of Guldan and kills Tichondrius with its power. But yeah, we're stretching some here.

And then the whole Infinite Dragonflight story runs smack into [holy quest spoilers, Batman] this and this, and... my head hurts.

That is amazingly awesome. There's a chance that 3/5 Aspects have been corrupted, with a 4th one on the way in the Emerald Dream due to the Nightmare, leaving only the Aspect of Life.

Incoherence · 07/07/08, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Cube

The major failing of Blizzard in TBC, from a story perspective, is that the T6 instances have very little to do with the overall storyline. The Ashtongue story is interesting, it doesn't really impact the overall Burning Crusade story, because Illidan doesn't have anything to do with them.

I think you missed the part about Illidan imprisoning Akama's soul inside the Black Temple. ("Wait, Shade of Akama is a boss?") While it's obvious that BT is much more of a revenge expedition than the more "righteous" expeditions to TK and Naxxramas, I think Blizzard manages to make it clear that Illidan has, at the very least, lost his marbles, even if he's not currently posing an active danger to anyone (that honor goes to Kael, who until his defeat at Tempest Keep has at least three possible ways that he could blow up Outland again), and I don't really think of the player characters as having entirely altruistic intentions.

Cube · 07/07/08, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Incoherence

I think you missed the part about Illidan imprisoning Akama's soul inside the Black Temple. ("Wait, Shade of Akama is a boss?")

It was a poor choice of words on my part. I apologize. I should have said that Illidan didn't have anything to do with the rest of the BC storyline, not the Ashtongue.

Kumar · 07/07/08, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by QControl

Yay, this means my pet theory about the Infinite Dragonflight might actually be true.

The Titans gave Nozdormu the knowledge of exactly how and when he would die as a check on his power. Perhaps he is behind the Infinite Dragonflight in an attempt to change the future and prevent his death from occuring.

But, in TBC, lets look at what they have tried to do:

1.) Prevent Thrall's escape - Horde wouldn't be there in its present form (Good for Legion?)
2.) Prevent Medivh from Opening the Portal - Horde wouldn't be there in its present form (Goor for Legion?)

3.) MH - Blizzard wanted a raid dungeon (very good for Legion)

WoTLK:
4.) Stop Strat Culling - Arthas doesn't go crazy insane. (Good for Legion?)

Also,

How would any of the above help Nozdormu avoid death. Or maybe, the Legion promised him immoirtality in exchange for doing certain things for them?

Legh · 07/07/08, 4:11 PM

Aspects and dragons are already immortal by default in WoW Lore, unless killed by a violent death

Kumar · 07/07/08, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by Legh

Aspects and dragons are already immortal by default in WoW Lore, unless killed by a violent death

But, Nozdormu knows when he is going to die and how he is going to die. And if going by a previous theory that he is indeed the leader of the Infinite Dragonflight too, how does affecting Timelines that only seem to benefit the Legion help him?

• Chicken · 07/07/08, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by Kumar

But, Nozdormu knows when he is going to die and how he is going to die. And if going by a previous theory that he is indeed the leader of the Infinite Dragonflight too, how does affecting Timelines that only seem to benefit the Legion help him?

Notice how it says "When and how", it's likely this doesn't imply a natural death. And knowing exactly what is going to kill him might mean he's plotting to prevent whatever is going to kill him.

Interestingly all three instances in CoT would actually prove to work out badly for the Horde on Azeroth. In Old Hillsbrad the Infinite Dragonflight seeks to prevent Thrall from getting freed from slavery. In The Black Morass they're preventing the Horde from entering Azeroth. The Culling is a bit of a stretch, but it'd have a few potential results. The first result is that Thrall gets corrupted along with the Warsong Clan due to never meeting the Alliance on Kalimdor (As I recall he saught the Oracle because of the Alliance's presence on Kalimdor), or alternatively if the Legion is delayed somehow by the Culling being prevented, it'd result in the Horde getting slaughtered by Cenarius and the Night Elves.

Sydane · 07/07/08, 5:02 PM

Regarding the infinite dragonflight:

Don't presume Nozdormu being behind the infinite dragonflight would mean he was trying to prevent his own death. Time travel logic is wonderfully circular. Perhaps the interference he is trying to prevent is inference from the players? He knew the infinite curiosity of our "heroes" was such that if there's an open time portal, we're going there (see: Hyjal), so by implementing a foil, he actually keeps us from doing something even more destructive. I don't think he has to become a villain to be behind it all. Knowing of his own death may just mean he also knows he has to manipulate the situation the way he is.

◊ zirky · 07/07/08, 5:10 PM

Re: Time and Lore

The graphic novel The Watchmen had a similar character with a knowledge of the future. When this ability was noted and asked why he had not stopped the assassination of Kennedy, he stated that he knew it was going to happen (in fact, he was able to preceive all time happening simultaneously), but was incapable of preventing an action which hadn't happened yet. I could see a similar issue with Nozdormu. He knows the full timeline, but is powerless to affect anything in the future as it hasn't happened yet. The problem with temporal stuff is it just gets too hard to fully conceptualize rationally.

I don't think he'll be the leader of the Infinite Dragonflight, their actions seem focused on thwarting the present and not the future. Also, look at all the cool speculation that was associated with Karazhan, Dark Riders, more Worgen, etc. What did we end up with? Prince Malchezzar; a giant demon who more or less was just there to be there.

Emeraude · 07/07/08, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by Kumar

But, in TBC, lets look at what they have tried to do:

1.) Prevent Thrall's escape - Horde wouldn't be there in its present form (Good for Legion?)
2.) Prevent Medivh from Opening the Portal - Horde wouldn't be there in its present form (Goor for Legion?)

3.) MH - Blizzard wanted a raid dungeon (very good for Legion)

WoTLK:
4.) Stop Strat Culling - Arthas doesn't go crazy insane. (Good for Legion?)

Also,

How would any of the above help Nozdormu avoid death. Or maybe, the Legion promised him immoirtality in exchange for doing certain things for them?

We can't even really include Mount Hyjal in the discussion, Blizzard extremely disappointed me with this zone, not only is there no sign of the Infinite Flight, but when asked about it, they just shrugged it off as an excuse to let players visit that point in history.

It's a "time pocket" if you will. There's no intended link to the Infinite Dragonflight or their dastardly deeds of altered timeways, and you're not literally interacting with history. It's simply a way for players to experience some of the larger moments in Warcraft history, and admittedly the Mount Hyjal instance isn't really linked to the world for any rhyme or reason. The timeway presented itself, it's an amazing opportunity to be there and experience such a major event, and Archimonde drops phat purples.

WoW Forums -> What is the point of Battle for Mount Hyjal

That being said, I understand how you might draw a link between the Legion and the Infinite Flight on the grounds that the flight's actions would result in Legion victory and/or destruction of Azeroth in almost every scenario. On the other hand, if you listen to what they say when you fight them, their interests seem to pertain more to themselves then actually being pawns and serving others:

"The time has come to shatter this clockwork universe forever! Let us no longer be slaves of the hourglass! I warn you: those who do not embrace the greater path shall become victims of its passing!"

"Ah, there you are. I had hoped to accomplish this with a bit of subtlety, but I suppose direct confrontation was inevitable. Your future, Thrall, must not come to pass and so...you and your troublesome friends must die!"

"Why do you persist? Surely you can see the futility of it all. It is not too late! You may still leave with your lives ..."

Aggro:

'Let us see what fate lays in store...'
"You cannot fight fate!"
* So be it ... you have been warned.

Slaying Bronze Dragonflight Keepers:
"You have outstayed your welcome, Keeper. Begone!"
"Keeper! Your sands have run out."
"Your time is up, slave of the past!"

Deaths:
"No!...The master... will not... be pleased."
* My death means ... little.
'Time ... is on our side.'
'It is only a matter...of time.'

If anything the ones who seem to be wrapped up on fate is this new Dragonflight, they seem to be the ones most concerned with changing their own destiny. However their actions seem to be the opposite of that, they view you, the player, as the ones who are fighting against fate/destiny, it'll be fun to watch how this plays out. The theory that Nozdormu might be trying to change his own fate by experimenting with this flight might hold water. Knowing when/where/how you're going to die can be a scary thought, when you tell somebody they have 6 months to live, they can react a number of ways, from sadness, to anger, to acceptance, to madness. This is especially true for Nozdormu he is the timeless one, time means nothing for him.

Kumar · 07/07/08, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by zirky

Re: Time and Lore

I don't think he'll be the leader of the Infinite Dragonflight, their actions seem focused on thwarting the present and not the future. Also, look at all the cool speculation that was associated with Karazhan, Dark Riders, more Worgen, etc. What did we end up with? Prince Malchezzar; a giant demon who more or less was just there to be there.

But wouldn't thwarting the present have an effect on the future?

Emily · 07/07/08, 5:29 PM

Re. Nozdormu

Or, Nozdormu may not be rebelling against his destiny at all - the Infinite Flight, and his part in it, may all have been foreseen, and he is merely an agent of fate - his ability to see the future effectively removes his free will - he sees it's going to happen, and has to do it. Perhaps the death he has been allowed to foresee will be brought about by us to stop the Infinite Flight, and he is acting to bring this about? Then again perhaps I'm overthinking this :P

flyingtoastr · 07/07/08, 5:38 PM

Aren't they starting to sound like beings who have all the time in the world? a.k.a Timeless One
The Infinite Dragonflight in the end have to be in someway related to the Bronze Dragonflight if both have the power to do the same thing.

The Infinite Dragonflight don't have to be an offshoot of the Bronze. The old gods can also manipulate time, IIRC the "tear" thing in the War of the Ancients stories was created by them. I may be wrong though, but for some reason I really don't think Blizzard would give us another "insane" aspect to deal with. If Nozdormu is indeed the big baddie the only aspect the who isn't off his/her marbles is Alexstrasza.

Of course this whole thing could bring up the whole "greater good" morality issue. If Nozy was acting to try and "correct the wrongs of the past for a better future" or some such noble sentiment the heroes opposing him (us) would indeed be the bad guys by seeking to preserve all the destruction and death caused by the three wars, which would put us in a real ethical dilemma.

Interesting.

• Chicken · 07/07/08, 5:43 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Of course this whole thing could bring up the whole "greater good" morality issue. If Nozy was acting to try and "correct the wrongs of the past for a better future" or some such noble sentiment the heroes opposing him (us) would indeed be the bad guys by seeking to preserve all the destruction and death caused by the three wars, which would put us in a real ethical dilemma.

Also partly depends on which side of the fence you're on. For Alliance that's certainly very true, but for the Horde most of the Infinite Dragonflight plans would mean the Horde wouldn't exist. As even most playable Orcs would be native to Azeroth by now that's not particularly preferrable for them.

zoombini · 07/07/08, 5:48 PM

mmmm lore discussion. Now THIS is what I want to see in this thread!

That being said, I have to wonder

what sort of blinders Chromie has on there. "Oh, this is guaranteed to show the villian. Huh, it showed Nozdormu. Welp, guess that means the invention didn't work right, since of COURSE there's no way an aspect can turn evil."

flyingtoastr · 07/07/08, 5:50 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

Also partly depends on which side of the fence you're on. For Alliance that's certainly very true, but for the Horde most of the Infinite Dragonflight plans would mean the Horde wouldn't exist. As even most playable Orcs would be native to Azeroth by now that's not particularly preferrable for them.

One thing to remember is that Nozdormu can see all of the possible futures that could happen from events, something us punny mortal races could not begin to comprehend. Perhaps (taking BM for example) not allowing the horde into Azeroth would force the legion into doing some other method to get at Azeroth that wouldn't require the Orcs, allowing them to live in relative peace on an unbroken Draenor or something. Perhaps he is looking at it from a pure numbers standpoint, no orcs means no war means a lot of saved lives on both sides. Maybe there is something completely different, like the backlash from the failed portal would kill Medivh and banish Sargaras to the nether that much sooner.

There is a lot of potential to run with this.

Shadout · 07/07/08, 5:53 PM

Maybe the Infinite Dragonflight are minions of the Titans, trying to fix Azeroth? Considering we will hear more about them in Woltk.
Anything is possible really.

Not that I really think the Titans are behind. They seem more like someone who would just go in and smash everything to 'fix' it.

Rannasha · 07/07/08, 5:54 PM

Originally Posted by Kumar

But, Nozdormu knows when he is going to die and how he is going to die. And if going by a previous theory that he is indeed the leader of the Infinite Dragonflight too, how does affecting Timelines that only seem to benefit the Legion help him?

Plenty of possible ways. Perhaps he has seen a major conflict between the Legion and one or more liberated Old Gods that ends in a close victory for the Old Gods followed by them killing Nozdormu. Tipping the balance in the Legions favor could prevent that.

PSGarak · 07/07/08, 6:33 PM

Originally Posted by Emily

Re. Nozdormu

Or, Nozdormu may not be rebelling against his destiny at all - the Infinite Flight, and his part in it, may all have been foreseen, and he is merely an agent of fate - his ability to see the future effectively removes his free will - he sees it's going to happen, and has to do it. Perhaps the death he has been allowed to foresee will be brought about by us to stop the Infinite Flight, and he is acting to bring this about? Then again perhaps I'm overthinking this :P

(nb: these spoiler tags are for Dune as well as WoW)
This really reminds me of some of the books in the Dune series, especially God-Emperor which is sadly the pons asinorum of the series. Paul's, and later Leto's, precognition removed their free will, and in both cases the only way out of the web of future they were aware they became entangled in was through their own deaths. Nozdormu may not be directly behind the infinite dragonflight, but if Metzen was in a Frank Herbert mood, the Infinites may be acting with his tacit permission in order to fulfil his own agenda, be it good or not, which may involve his own death as the goal or as an inevitable intermediate step.

Another possibility is that Nozdorume creates/allows the Infinites specifically in order to bring the mortals (players) into the timelines, either to precipitate them into action or because he needs them interacting with the normally-xenophobic bronzes. Sleeping Nozdormu just looks too much like a Sandworm for me not to start thinking of him as Leto.

Addled · 07/07/08, 9:02 PM

Originally Posted by Emily

Re. Nozdormu

Or, Nozdormu may not be rebelling against his destiny at all - the Infinite Flight, and his part in it, may all have been foreseen, and he is merely an agent of fate - his ability to see the future effectively removes his free will - he sees it's going to happen, and has to do it. Perhaps the death he has been allowed to foresee will be brought about by us to stop the Infinite Flight, and he is acting to bring this about? Then again perhaps I'm overthinking this :P

I love this page, when you initially look at it, it looks like a bunch of empty boxes, but then you realize there's a ton of fascinating speculation here ;-)

Perhaps Nozdormu's death is integral to ending the threat of the Burning Legion/Scourge/some other threat. Perhaps he is the M'uru of the timeways.

If Nozdormu knew, that at some point he was going to go insane/attack the world (ala Malygos), he might be trying to "speed up" time and get to his death faster. It might be easier to kill him now rather than later, when Nozdormu shifts into his "evil" mode, sort of like M'uru shifting into Entropius.

But if Nozdormu truly is insane and is attacking the timeways to try and alter his own fate, that means only the red dragonflight is more or less sane/"not trying to kill us all".

Clearly time is a malleable thing in WoW. The Scourge, Old Gods, Infinite and Bronze Dragonflights all know how to manipulate time. The Infinite Dragonflight could be a Scourge or Burning Legion creation. The nutcases in Scholomance were experimenting with an undead dragonflight, and Nefarian was messing around with dragon DNA (hence the drakonids).