Wrath of Lich King Stuff (was 'Blizzcon' thread) - Page 208

flyingtoastr · 07/08/08, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Keltan

Am I the only one completely fed up with Metzen's broken record of "So and so was a good guy...but wait! They went insane and now we have to kill them!" crap?

Could we possibly get a new major force of evil that wasn't:
1.) good guy driven insane and now we have to kill them
2.) a pawn in yet another Old God's jailbreak attempt?

I fully expect to learn by the end of WotLK that the Old God's were subtly influencing Ner'zhul/Arthas all along in an attempt to get him to do <x> that would have the side effect of freeing them. Having even more of the Dragon Aspects driven mad by the Old God's "so we have an excuse to kill dragons" is just retarded. Retconning them all to just be evil/hostile with all the player races from the beginning would make more sense.

I wouldn't say all the aspects are insane, or even evil (with the exception of Deathwing, who is clearly both). With Malygos the devs seem to be attempting to broach the issue of "greater good". Reckless magic use beckons demons and other evil baddies to enter Azeroth (see the history of the Order of Tirisfal for details). Malygos clearly believes (probably correctly) that continued widespread use of arcane magics by the lesser races will lead to another Sundering-esque catastrophe or Burning Legion invasion. He is trying to protect the world's future at the expense of some wacko mages in the present.

So the question becomes, does the greater good of the future outweigh the problems he is causing in the present? He is doing what he was technically charged with (protecting and controlling arcane magic use), it just so happens that his plan gets in the way of our plans.

I wouldn't call it insanity, I would call it "moral gray area".

Glaurong · 07/08/08, 12:41 PM

When will sci-fi writers learn that time travel story lines just give everyone a headache and ultimately have to be resolved with a whole lot of hand waving?

The whole infinite dragonflight story arc is riddled with inconsistencies and broken logic.

Addled · 07/08/08, 1:13 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

I wouldn't say all the aspects are insane, or even evil (with the exception of Deathwing, who is clearly both). With Malygos the devs seem to be attempting to broach the issue of "greater good". Reckless magic use beckons demons and other evil baddies to enter Azeroth (see the history of the Order of Tirisfal for details). Malygos clearly believes (probably correctly) that continued widespread use of arcane magics by the lesser races will lead to another Sundering-esque catastrophe or Burning Legion invasion. He is trying to protect the world's future at the expense of some wacko mages in the present.

So the question becomes, does the greater good of the future outweigh the problems he is causing in the present? He is doing what he was technically charged with (protecting and controlling arcane magic use), it just so happens that his plan gets in the way of our plans.

I wouldn't call it insanity, I would call it "moral gray area".

I want to quote this for truth, and expand upon it.

If Malygos succeeds, the only classes that would be rendered powerless are mages and warlocks. Those two classes command/enslave magic to their own uses. Both classes use arcane magics that Malygos is specifically attacking (note that "arcane magics" is an ENTIRELY different concept than the arcane "school" of magic).

All other magic classes work as partners with their magic capabilities. Druid magic is granted by the Goddess Elune (for NEs) and by the Earthmother (for Tauren; speculation is that the Earthmother could be an Old God). Even an Aspect cannot fight the power of a Goddess. Priests utilize magic (both light and dark side) capabilities that are granted by the gods they serve. Paladins use magic granted by belief. Shamans work in concert with the elements; the elements grant them their abilities in return for favors (cleansing the water, killing diseased animals, etc).

Malygos sounds insane, but that fact is that even if he succeeds, it doesn't mean the end of life on Earth. It doesn't even mean the end of magic use.

Starfire · 07/08/08, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by Addled

I want to quote this for truth, and expand upon it.

If Malygos succeeds, the only classes that would be rendered powerless are mages and warlocks. Those two classes command/enslave magic to their own uses. Both classes use arcane magics that Malygos is specifically attacking (note that "arcane magics" is an ENTIRELY different concept than the arcane "school" of magic).

All other magic classes work as partners with their magic capabilities. Druid magic is granted by the Goddess Elune (for NEs) and by the Earthmother (for Tauren; speculation is that the Earthmother could be an Old God). Even an Aspect cannot fight the power of a Goddess. Priests utilize magic (both light and dark side) capabilities that are granted by the gods they serve. Paladins use magic granted by belief. Shamans work in concert with the elements; the elements grant them their abilities in return for favors (cleansing the water, killing diseased animals, etc).

Malygos sounds insane, but that fact is that even if he succeeds, it doesn't mean the end of life on Earth. It doesn't even mean the end of magic use.

I demand a fight that requires offensive holy magic to win =( (Which by the way does not mean you make mages or warlocks useless, just make multiple mobs... throw in a mob vulnerable to only fire, and then one vulnerable only to holy ^^)

Will warlocks even be affected by Malygos? They seem to be enslaving demonic magic. Will maybe, I guess going by the warlock page, they were formerly mages that delved too far... so in theory some of their magic would be, but other's wouldn't right?

tedv · 07/08/08, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by Starfire

I demand a fight that requires offensive holy magic to win =( (Which by the way does not mean you make mages or warlocks useless, just make multiple mobs... throw in a mob vulnerable to only fire, and then one vulnerable only to holy ^^)

They're just trash monsters but: Apocalypse Guard - NPC - World of Warcraft

You definitely will not kill them without holy damage.

Talgog · 07/08/08, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Starfire

Will warlocks even be affected by Malygos? They seem to be enslaving demonic magic. Will maybe, I guess going by the warlock page, they were formerly mages that delved too far... so in theory some of their magic would be, but other's wouldn't right?

Warlock fire magic is mage legacy. They've just twisted it to be nastier i.e. burn soul, slow roast, inflict searing pain...

As far as the shadow, demon and now raw Chaotic aspects of being a warlock, I'd imagine Malygos would be happy to purge that the hard way, since every last drop of it is flowing from the Burning Legion.

The evolution of warlocks on Azeroth should, lore wise, be extremely disturbing to any of the higher beings, and the Titans in particular. Sure, Azeroth keeps beating off the Burning Legion, but it's developed its own increasingly powerful cadre that could very well become an independent Legion offshoot at some point in the future.

Moogul · 07/08/08, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Starfire

I demand a fight that requires offensive holy magic to win =(

I don't think anyone enjoyed that version of Nightbane (I myself never got to try it).

zoombini · 07/08/08, 1:52 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

So the question becomes, does the greater good of the future outweigh the problems he is causing in the present? He is doing what he was technically charged with (protecting and controlling arcane magic use), it just so happens that his plan gets in the way of our plans.

I wouldn't call it insanity, I would call it "moral gray area".

The problem is that

He's attacking the Wyrmrest temple - why? The temple apparently is a hallowed neutral meeting ground for the dragon factions - even the Black flight didn't attack it, and they were openly hostile to the other flights. He seems to be violating one of the larger rules here, and there's no real reason as to why . . . .

rhea · 07/08/08, 1:52 PM

The Nexus with all the magic energy is causing the world to end but Malygos doesn't see it happening. The other dragons try to stop him. Nothing to do with Malygos succeeding. We know how it's going to end (Azeroth won't end, duh), but not how it's going to happen.

thedopefishlives · 07/08/08, 2:15 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

Also if you were referring to Nozdormu, remember that all of the above is speculation. It could very well be that Chromie was in fact completely correct about why Nozdormu appears, and that she wasn't in denial like most people are assuming.

This is really where I thought the story line would be heading, myself. I was fully expecting to see another screen shot where Chromie comes back and says, "Yeah, Nozdormu decided to show up and say you're not ready to handle the Big Baddie himself yet, but he's working on beating back the defenses... Why don't you go munch on these lesser lackeys while he opens up the timeways to improve your odds of success?"

Pyralissa · 07/08/08, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Addled

All other magic classes work as partners with their magic capabilities. Druid magic is granted by the Goddess Elune (for NEs) and by the Earthmother (for Tauren; speculation is that the Earthmother could be an Old God). Even an Aspect cannot fight the power of a Goddess. Priests utilize magic (both light and dark side) capabilities that are granted by the gods they serve. Paladins use magic granted by belief. Shamans work in concert with the elements; the elements grant them their abilities in return for favors (cleansing the water, killing diseased animals, etc).

According to the RPG books all "Divine" power sources (Shaman, Paladin, Priest, Druid magic) flows from the caster, it's not actually granted in any way by a higher power. Arcane Magic (Warlocks, Necromancers, Mages) flows from external power sources (The Nether, Lich King, Ley-Lines respectively) which is the opposite of most of the major game systems.

If Malygos is on a crusade to stamp down the use of Arcane Power the classes that would suffer would be Mages, Warlocks and most likely Death Knights.

Originally Posted by Talgog

Warlock fire magic is mage legacy. They've just twisted it to be nastier i.e. burn soul, slow roast, inflict searing pain...

Warlock fire spells flow directly from their primary power sources, the twisting nether. In the Warcraft RPG Warlocks don't posses even half of the shadow school of spells, they are almost entirely reliant on Summoning and Fire magics. The entire affliction line of spells is more like due to the "concentrated cool" class design philosophy so that they could create a class that combines traditional warlock functions (fire magic, summoning) and the aspects of a Necromancer (affliction). Destruction is much closer to the "core" of the Warlock magic throughout the lore. The Shadow aspects of the class are almost all unique to WoW, but they are emphasized because it helps separates the class from mages.

I'm personally not terribly interested in the aspects. Much more looking forward to the plot lines around the Death Knights and The Silver Hand. The Death Knight questline might be a significant first for Warcraft, where a previously evil character turns good!

Malleus · 07/08/08, 2:47 PM

Originally Posted by Bullshot

The Titans are going around creating worlds and populating it with life forms. They probably consider the inhabitants of Azeroth to be just a form of artificial intelligence. I'd presume they create a world, seed it, let it grow on its own and then check up on it a "bit" later (a bit might be a million billion years for us for all we know). If they don't like what they see, they'll probably want to purge the planet and then consider not using the same methodology to create new worlds and life.

Lore spoilers for how Blizzard will end World of Warcraft, come the day:

Aman'thul has joined [2. Trade]
<W:asdfasfasdaf>Buy cheap gold from www .spammerscumwhostealaccounts.c0m, we are your best choice
<Supanoob> [Dirge][Dirge][Dirge]
<Drizzzzzzzzt> omg u r such a n00b!
<Imbapally> ne1 want 2 boost me thru DM for free?
<Supanoob> [Dirge][Dirge][Dirge]
<Jayna> STFU with the [Dirge] spam
<Fudnucker> Chuck Norris roundhosed [Dirge]
<Supanoob> [Dirge][Dirge][Dirge]
<Aman'thul> Goddamnit, another planet with no intelligent life.
Aman'thul has defeated Azeroth in a duel!

Keltan · 07/08/08, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

If this is in reference to Malygos, I'm not sure if that is the correct interpretation of his actions. I personally view it as more complicated than "He went insane and is trying to destroy the world", it's more a "He's sane, and the reason for what he's doing is noble, the way he's going about it is not". Thus turning him into more of an anti-hero and less of a villain.

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

I wouldn't say all the aspects are insane, or even evil (with the exception of Deathwing, who is clearly both). With Malygos the devs seem to be attempting to broach the issue of "greater good". Reckless magic use beckons demons and other evil baddies to enter Azeroth (see the history of the Order of Tirisfal for details). Malygos clearly believes (probably correctly) that continued widespread use of arcane magics by the lesser races will lead to another Sundering-esque catastrophe or Burning Legion invasion. He is trying to protect the world's future at the expense of some wacko mages in the present.

So the question becomes, does the greater good of the future outweigh the problems he is causing in the present? He is doing what he was technically charged with (protecting and controlling arcane magic use), it just so happens that his plan gets in the way of our plans.

I wouldn't call it insanity, I would call it "moral gray area".

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. My previous rant wasn't in regards to Malygos or any of the other dragon aspects in particular. It was just a general rant at Metzen's uncreative repetitiveness.

Sargeras was the Guardian tasked with defending life from the Burning Legion...and get's corrupted and is now evil and we need to kill/stop him.

Illidan started out as a good guy protecting his people the best way he knew (magic) and became corrupted and crazy and now we have to kill him.

Arthas was an emo moron, but was attempting to protect his people from the Scourge, but is now corrupted.

Kerrigan was a hero fighting the Zerg, who get's captured and becomes the evil Queen of Blades.

Neltharion was the Earth Warder, but get's corrupted by the Old Gods, becomes Deathwing, and now we have to kill him.

Medivh was good, but then is corrupted and does evil stuff until 'the good guys' killed him.

The retconned eredar weren't all bad...until Sargeras came along and corrupted them, and now they all need to die!

Honestly, I guess I should be happy with the "Malygos isn't insane, he just believes that killing 10,000 magic users in the present is worth it if it prevents a future demonic invasion/Sundering that will kill the entire planet," since it at least is something new and not the exact same "good guy went insane, let's go kill him" drivel that Metzen has been feeding us forever.

Emeraude · 07/08/08, 3:01 PM

Originally Posted by Hylo

I can't help it but that guy looks awfully like Nefarian, Deathwing's son. Probably just coincidence or Blizzard's favorite way of presenting male black dragons in human form.

So far that's been the MO for Black Dragons in Human form. The Males are all dark skinned with poofy Black Hair and look pissed 24-7(Nefarian in Blackrock Spire, Sabellian in Blade's Edge, Kalaran in Searing Gorge), the Females are all pale white with dark hair(Onyxia in Stormwind, Lady Sinestra at Netherwing Camp, Nalice at Wyrmrest Temple).

Originally Posted by Keltan

Am I the only one completely fed up with Metzen's broken record of "So and so was a good guy...but wait! They went insane and now we have to kill them!" crap?

Could we possibly get a new major force of evil that wasn't:
1.) good guy driven insane and now we have to kill them
2.) a pawn in yet another Old God's jailbreak attempt?

I fully expect to learn by the end of WotLK that the Old God's were subtly influencing Ner'zhul/Arthas all along in an attempt to get him to do <x> that would have the side effect of freeing them. Having even more of the Dragon Aspects driven mad by the Old God's "so we have an excuse to kill dragons" is just retarded. Retconning them all to just be evil/hostile with all the player races from the beginning would make more sense.

No you're not, in fact I have a friend at the moment who is annoyed at me for accepting Death Knights turning good and Malygos becoming a villain.

Fact of the matter is Christ Metzen treats the lore like a city in Sim City. He builds it all up into this wonderful and marvelous splendor, then he hits the 9 disaster options and watches hell break loose for a good laugh. I find it far more interesting when those that claim to be devout and pure of heart turn to the dark side so to speak, because there is always a reason, and the REASON is always more complex and interesting then "They went crazy". Arthas didn't just "go crazy", you can't simplify what was happening to his people and kingdom during WC3 into such terms, same could be said of Kael'thas, or Illidan. How many pawns have there been for the Old God's jailbreak really? The most notable one was Deathwing, and then you have the Naga to a lesser degree, hardly a huge list.

Moogul · 07/08/08, 3:18 PM

Whilst I'm not going to argue that 'I went insane and now I'm evil!' doesn't get repetitive, the fact of the matter is, as someone mentioned earlier, no-one really 'starts' evil.

I mean, would Arthas be more interesting if he was just 'born evil'?

"Is it a boy or girl?"
"Here Mrs. Menethil, you've given birth to a lovely baby, uh, death knight!"

Everyone 'goes evil' at some point, for one or more various reasons. For Neltharion it was an Old God's corruption. For Sargeras it was an eternity spent fighting seemingly endless, infite chaos. For Arthas it was fighting a war seemingly by himself, whilst others refused to do what must be done. For Kerrigan it was....mind worms?

Malygos seems to have gone a similar way to Arthas, except that (as far as we know) there's no outside influence egging him on. He just sees a problem, and can only see one possible solution, which others don't agree with. Whilst it might seem a bit off-kilter considering how helpful the blue dragonflight has been recently (see: Kalecgos), it's not really hard to believe that after the guardian of Magic sees those pesky mages and warlocks almost succeeding in summoning Kil'jaeden to Azeroth, that he'd freak and decide it was time to revoke privelages from all other magic uses.

Kumar · 07/08/08, 3:31 PM

By having characters turn evil rather than born evil, allows the writers to give them much more backstory and lore. That is not to say, we don't have characters that can be classified as "Born Evil" - specifically the Old Gods.

Kael, Illidian, Arthas, Deathwing, Medivh are interesting characters for that reason. Did people ever have an animated conversation discussing the lore/backstory/future of C'thun? I have never seen one till now.

• Chicken · 07/08/08, 3:47 PM

It's also possible to have villains that aren't actually evil or insane though, but I have no idea whether Blizzard would want us to be able to make more questionable moral choices ourself. It's also much harder to develop such villains with limited back story while not playing a character that's actually evil.

It does happen somewhat in Warcraft, but it's more related to the fact that neither the Horde nor Alliance are evil as such, but they are opposed to each other.

I actually wonder if it'd be possible to develop a proper anti-villain within the limitations of an MMORPG. It'd be extremely difficult I suspect to give a good reason (Without being duped, or being evil, or whoever it is being the opposite faction) for killing someone that's opposed to your cause, but is nevertheless a good, noble person.

◊ zirky · 07/08/08, 3:49 PM

Originally Posted by Kumar

Kael, Illidian, Arthas, Deathwing, Medivh are interesting characters for that reason. Did people ever have an animated conversation discussing the lore/backstory/future of C'thun? I have never seen one till now.

As a rule, anything with tentacles tends to attract its own, horrible, sect of discussions and fan fictions. Let's not ask for something we'll all regret.

I will agree, however, that the whole "mad with power" plot device is getting a little worn, but at the same time, do we really want to settle for "harbinger of destruction"?

Anedris · 07/08/08, 3:54 PM

Just as an aside, I am about 90% convinced that there's an Old God in Azjol-Nerub corrupting (or leading) the Nerubians. The Nerubian Vizier bestiary description makes reference to them serving a mysterious master, and given the setting and the fact that Arthas encountered what seemed to be an Old God (I think Anub'arak calls it a "Nameless One" but the appearance is about the same) on his way through in TFT, I suspect we can chalk one more race/faction up to "corrupted/serving the Old Gods."

I don't really have an issue with that though - I mean, they're gods. It would be a little weird for them not to be able to coerce/corrupt some force into serving their ends.

Sillia · 07/08/08, 4:01 PM

Originally Posted by Moogul

Whilst I'm not going to argue that 'I went insane and now I'm evil!' doesn't get repetitive, the fact of the matter is, as someone mentioned earlier, no-one really 'starts' evil.

Nah, there are plenty of mythic stories of villains who were just born evil. Psychopaths and sociopaths certainly exist in real life, there's no reason why they wouldn't in fantasy. That's kind of what the Burning Legion is, a bunch of demonic sociopaths who enjoy and thrive on destruction. The problem with the Burning Legion is that it really lacks a real BBEG who isn't cut from the same cloth as all of the other formerly-good-now-insane-and-evil villains. The guys who exemplify the Legion are Sargeras, Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden... and all of them are of similar origin.

Warcraft's story needs something like Darkseid or Thanos... somebody who is completely sane, completely alien, and totally full of himself. Never a force for good, always been malevolent, and staggeringly powerful. They see the world their way, and their way is very different from everyone else's.

Another option would be a force of nature type enemy, like the DnD Tarrasque, or Doomsday from DC Comics. They aren't intelligent, they aren't clever, but they are ridiculously strong and leave devastation and destruction in their wake.

Change things up, rather than pump the well for other heroic/sympathetic figures who have gone nuts and now want to kill everything.

Cube · 07/08/08, 4:11 PM

Originally Posted by Kumar

Did people ever have an animated conversation discussing the lore/backstory/future of C'thun? I have never seen one till now.

I don't think that "animated conversation" could apply to a tentacle beast. And if such a conversation occurs, I don't think that it could be posted in any safe-for-work forum.

Ever.

• Spleen · 07/08/08, 4:23 PM

The undead plague is also magical in nature, supporting the whole "Malygos is acting within his authority" argument. The main issue with his implementation however is he appears to embrace the practice of "destroying the village in order to save it."

Cranberry · 07/08/08, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Anedris

Just as an aside, I am about 90% convinced that there's an Old God in Azjol-Nerub corrupting (or leading) the Nerubians. The Nerubian Vizier bestiary description makes reference to them serving a mysterious master, and given the setting and the fact that Arthas encountered what seemed to be an Old God (I think Anub'arak calls it a "Nameless One" but the appearance is about the same) on his way through in TFT, I suspect we can chalk one more race/faction up to "corrupted/serving the Old Gods."

I don't really have an issue with that though - I mean, they're gods. It would be a little weird for them not to be able to coerce/corrupt some force into serving their ends.

They confirmed the presence of an Old God there at BlizzCon. I think we can safely assume that it is the Forgotten One.

Hopefully he's easier than he was in WCIII.

Terp · 07/08/08, 5:08 PM

Originally Posted by Kumar

By having characters turn evil rather than born evil, allows the writers to give them much more backstory and lore. That is not to say, we don't have characters that can be classified as "Born Evil" - specifically the Old Gods.

Kael, Illidian, Arthas, Deathwing, Medivh are interesting characters for that reason. Did people ever have an animated conversation discussing the lore/backstory/future of C'thun? I have never seen one till now.

I think the vast amount of displeasure over this motif comes from the way the Draenei and Sargeras retconning was handled. Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden were the big baddies of Warcraft III. The unstoppable evils. Them being the ones that drive Sargeras insane and kick start the Burning Legion does bucketloads more for their character development than them simply getting corrupted by the big guy.

The fact that it was yet another good guy turns evil story isn't nearly as unacceptable as that it was completely undeveloped and replaced a genuinely cool alternative. And as a side effect, most people get sore over the whole corruption thing now.

Anedris · 07/08/08, 5:30 PM

Illidan going evil kind of came out of left field too. I mean, bitter, lonely, spiteful, power-hungry, envious... those all fit, but in the games he never really comes across as evil, and he makes a clear choice in TFT to save Tyrande. The whole "He went crazy after losing to Arthas" thing is kind of... simplistic. It's not completely implausible - he was never what you would call stable - but it just feels like an excuse to go kill him.