Muggins

The choice of the Culling as the latest CoT instance is an apt one as it holds a mirror up to the latest goings on with Malygos. The situation and the mindsets of the protagonists are extremely similar; Arthas believes his only choice is to kill off the inhabitants of Stratholme before they can be turned for the Legion which would allow an even greater evil than the mass genocide he is undertaking to happen, Malygos believes his only choice is to remove any use of magic even if it means killing off 'innocent' magic users in order to stave off the Legion/other power hungry souces/random Azeroth destroying catastrophe. Both know that the path they take is not morally 'right' but they're taking the path of lesser evil and believe that the end justifies the means.

Its going to be interesting to have a set of instances where you are helping one actor fulfill his role of the path of 'lesser evil' before then foiling the other's attempt to do the exact same thing.

 

Munorion

My thoughts exactly, and much the same goes for Kael. In TFT, you could very much sympathize with him - he was being treated like dirt by Garrithos and the humans, his people had just been nearly annihilated, his main goal was just the survival of his race.
Come WoW, we get "Oh, he's been driven insane by his thirst for demonic magic, sorry. Here, go kill him." That's not to say that the Kael fight isn't great, it's one of the coolest in WoW (as far as I can judge), and actually they managed to integrate it into the overall storyline fairly well (Sunwell and all) - but I still think they kind of wasted a very interesting character.

 

Axanor

Illidan sort of works for me, in the sense that he's simply replaced the demon lords as the ruling power in Outland. The whole power corrupts thing, and all. Kael realy never had a good explanation, though, and they really dtropped the ball there.

 

Starfire

Personally, I don't really see Illidan as evil. But I sure as hell don't understand why we're waging war on him.

The whole lore with Illidan and the Draenei seems maligned. And you know... you would kind of think the Draenei would be pissed off at the Night Elves, since Illidan is/was a damn Night Elf. But instead the Draenei are just pissed off at the Blood Elves and are all friendly-friendly with the Night Elves.

And Vashj... there was some potential there. It really feels like someone dropped the ball and some guy at the last minute decided to add the tidbit about controlling water... but there really is no grand build up to. We know the Nagas are there, but we don't know much else.

TBC is certainly nothing like Nefarian or even Ragnaros (I cede that Molten Core was a bore, but there's 2-4 full areas with strong dedication to building up the story).

It's strange, but I personally feel Nefarian and Ragnaros were far more epic and intricate than Illidan, Kael'thas or Zul'Jin. My God, if I was on an RP server I don't think I could ever drag myself to kill Zul'Jin.

Yeah, the latter 3 have huge backstories, but it seems a cheap-cop-out to kill them.

 

Emeraude

You forgot Selfish, and Self-Centered. Illidan was not the poster boy for good, let's stop pretending he was. He betrayed his people in the War of the Ancients and joined Sargeras and the Highborne, he attempted to claim the Demon Soul's power for itself, he selfishly attempted to recreate the well of eternity after the original exploded causing the world to Sunder. Upon being freed by Tyrande he immediately sought more power from the Skull of Gul'Dan, Arthas only had to point him in the right direction, had it not been Arthas it would have been somebody else or some other power source. He attempted to destroy Icecrown Glacier ignoring the consequences it would have on the world. He agreed to work for the Legion AGAIN to destroy the Scourge, this was not an act of kindness, he bowed to the Legion. He ruled over Outland with an iron fist, this was not a benevolent ruler. Illidan was in no way, shape, or form a good person, the only people who cared about him in his life were his brother and Tyrande, and he repeatedly turned away from them and made the worst decisions, in the end he had to pay for his crimes and he deserved death.

Kael'thas was more like Arthas 2.0. The toll it took on his people after the Sunwell was destroyed made him just as desperate as Arthas to find something to save his people. AGAIN, it was HIS fault that he turned to Demons as the answer to his problems. Yes, he was shoved in that direction by the failing Alliance and Lord Garithos, but after everything was said and done he still resided in Outland for 5 years siphoning Demonic energy. I'm no demonologist but I do think if you suck up demonic energy for prolonged amounts of time you might go a little wirey in the head. After Kael allied with Illidan, he allied with the Legion, he then attempted to bring Kil'Jaeden into our world, and sold out the Sunwell. We all remember what type of person Kael WAS in TFT, but you're quick to forget the decisions he made during that period and what they led to in the grand picture.

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Blacksen

I actually have a lore question regarding C'thun that I was hoping for an answer on. C'thun looked strangely like the Forgotten One in Azjol-Nerub - do they bare any connection?

In regards to the Illidan and Kael'Thas discussion, I agree with Emeraude. Kael'Thas became reckless in the desire to save his people. He made unwise decisions, such as the departure from Garithos and the alliance with Vashj and Illidan. Rather than becoming a leader of his people, he simply changed his alleigances, following them around like a dog. And while I don't think that Garithos is respectable, it would have probably been more wise to follow him than the Naga and Demon. I feel bad for Kael, simply because his intentions were good and always have been. He just... lost touch with reality.

Illidan, on the other hand, knew what he was doing. His ultimate goal was power, and we all know the corruption that it brought him. He was never a "good guy" - he had no respect for nature or the order of things. He ruled with an iron fist and led Outland in his tyranny. Everything he did was for power and self-preservation.

 

Incoherence

But Vashj really didn't have much to work with in Warcraft 3 either. Unlike the other Warcraft 3 characters, her motivations are always something of a mystery. Obviously, if we want to get to Illidan we'll have to go through her (okay, so this is no longer technically true), but other than that she was never a terribly well developed character: Azshara sends her as an emissary, she runs into Illidan and they ally out of convenience because the naga hate the night elves and Illidan is being chased by them, and then... well, and then she's with Illidan. Even WoWWiki, which likes to ascribe motivations and explanations to everything, doesn't have anything. So her (apparently not-well-thought-out) plan to somehow control all water in Outland isn't much worse than the utter lack of motivation that preceded it.

 

Terp

Ostensibly, both Illidan and Kael know the Cipher of Damnation and need to be killed to prevent them from simply deciding one day to destroy Outland. Of course that falls apart when you consider Outland is more or less a hellhole and the staging point of what, all of Burning Legion invasions into Azeroth? Why anyone on Azeroth would want the place hanging about aside from a homesick orc is beyond me.

But then you get all sorts of evil deeds the two are up to. Illidan's got his own demon army, is trying to create more blood elf demon hunters, and enslaved both the broken and a new breed of fel orc. Toss in the Akama/Maiev storyline and sure, there's plenty of reason to take down Illidan. Kael and Vashj less so, but they both have their run ins with the Cenarion druids and hey, Kael stole A'dal's spaceship.

I think the biggest hang up people have with the TBC story is that the big heroes of the expansion pack are giant glyphs of light. With all the dragons about and the potential Dalaran and Arthas hold, that doesn't look like it's going to be that big of a problem.

 

Incoherence

That's not really the hang-up. Both Kael and Illidan have to make one critical error somewhere between TFT and BC for the BC story to make sense: Kael has to decide that feeding his crack addiction is worth essentially enslaving his followers to the Legion, and Illidan has to respond to the duel at Icecrown/losing Tyrande forever/the possible appearance of an angry Kil'Jaeden by going completely insane and becoming some sort of iron-fisted dictator who no one outside of Shadowmoon really seems to care about.

 

Anedris

Ya, the killing of Illidan and Kael is justified within TBC. The disconnect is between those figures as seen in TFT and those figures as seen in WoW. Illidan's "iron ruler" persona comes as a bit of a surprise - in WC3 he comes across as almost a complete loner and the type to rely on no one but himself (the manner in which you encounter him in BT actually fits this quite well - alone, brooding, and giving no sign he particularly cares that you just slaughtered your way through his entire army, killed all his lieutenants, and decimated his base of operations). Kael's "actually, I have no morals, it's all about power" shift is similarly a little disjointed (I guess that's what demonic magic does to you, but from a "real world" PoV it seems sudden and contrived).

I'm not saying they don't make sense or aren't explained, they just don't feel natural.

Personally, I kind of liked the Naaru though. Questing on behalf of omnipotent Christmas tree ornaments was kind of cool.

 

Henin

I've never really seen where people get the idea that Kael'thas (in TK) went crazy. He followed Illidan to Outland with the promise of a new magic source to slake his races' thirst. Illidan failed to deliver so Kael sought help elsewhere. It's always struck me as a case of 'by any means necessary' rather than insanity.

After his mauling in TK and subsequent life-support crystal installation is a different matter though.

 

Shadout

Could be kinda nice if Illidan got somewhat redeemed later on. Like the players figuring out he was once again trying to do 'good', his means to do so was just a bit extreme.
He never seemed pure evil in War 3, a bit crazy maybe, (10000 years is a long time I guess) and surely lacking his grasp of reality, then throw in a bit 'magic corrupts... but not really 'Old God'-evil either.

Metzen have said a basic rule in Warcraft is that magic is ultimately corruptive, it creates power hunger etc... Its not just demonic magic, but magic in general.
Illidan obviously exemplifies it, same for Blood Elves, 'early-Elves' etc. Kiljaeden and the Eredars started out that way too.
Medivhs mother is a really good example of the corruptive nature of magic in Warcraft. She doesnt turn evil as such, but rather her magic powers give her a self-confidence and 'Im better than all of you!'-attitude ('all of you' being the rest of the Tirisfal Guardian group, who wanted her to chill a bit, and certainly not get a child), which made her ignorant of the fact Sargaros had cheated her.
And while warlocks and mages might not be super-evil, from a lore point many of them are probably of the type that would sacrifice their grandma for a stronger fireball...
But at the same time, we obviously got chars in the lore which seems able to handle their magic power pretty well.
Like Jaina or Velen, or related to what people have discussed here, the dragon aspects. Well, some of them at least, Neltharion seems to be the only one affected by magic corruption (although that was more due to Old Gods). The other aspects went insane or so far Missing in action for other reasons not realted to their magic power itself. So obviously magic isnt always corruptive in warcraft, although we dont really have an explanation for when it is and isnt.

Maybe they should make up some new lore on the corruptive nature of magic, it might even help deepen the stories of lots of the ' this and that went crazy, kill it'-bosses.

About Kael, his 'insanity' could easily be deepened too. We might not have the whole picture of his alliance with the demons. Maybe he actually planned to 'feed' on the demons, including Kiljaeden or whatever else, getting tired of Illidans passive waiting game.

To continue on with what Blizzard can do, they actually do seem to have noticed that players are 1) tired of yet another character going insane (even if they continue that way) and 2) Want more lore interaction with the major characters.
Illidan was a nice start throwing him, Maeiv and that Broken guy together for the fight, and at the same time setting Maeiv up for some future problems.
And now they throw in some of the big guys (dragon aspects among others) for Wotlk. It could be nice for a change, to see Malygos getting saved rather than killed by some of the other major characters, during the boss fight.

As a conclusion though, Blizz also seems to try adding more layers, not so much through the game, but instead through the books, manga etc. Which is a bit of a defeat of course, the story should be told through the game, not through other merchandise.
At the same time we shouldnt forget its just a game story, cant expect it to be that deep Stuff like Arthas and Illidan is imo, already better than much of what you see from similar games. Warcraft was an RTS after all, not a genre known as the pinnacle of game storytelling, and neither MMO's have exactly been known for the great stories).


The insectoids in Silithus and the ones in Northrend were in ancient times one species. And its very much implied their species was under the control of the Old Gods. Over time the trolls kicked some ass, and the insectoids was split in north and south.
Its pretty safe to assume an Old God is imprisoned down under Azjol-Nerub.
Furthermore, contrary to Cthun, who was a nearly dead god, trying to regain his former strength, the Old God in Northrend, should be relatively well and healthy, although imprisoned in one way or another.
Forgotten Ones are likely just the name used for Old God servants, and the northern version of the Egyptian bosses found in AQ.

The question then is, what it was Arthas killed. Some believe it was the Old God, but to be fair, it seems unlikely. 1) Arthas wasnt that strong 2) Blizz wouldnt kill one of those off like that (and if they did, they will retcon it). Either it was an minion, or just a minor part of the old god (which the Cthun eye we killed might have been as well).

 

Dancing Wu Li Master

Kael started working for the Legion in TFT though. He's at Icecrown at the behest of Kil'jaedan, who even comments that he "shows some promise". I never saw Illidan as pure evil per se, but every single one of his actions were motivated by selfish goals. Amoral, perhaps.

As for Old Gods in Northrend, I dearly, dearly hope that there is an Onyxia / Magtheridon style instance which is basically C'thun Mark 2. It's widely regarded as one of the best fights, and not that many people saw it. If they're bringing Naxx back for those reasons, I can at least dream about seeing a tentacle laser party again.

 

Addled

 

Prinsesa

I disagree. If you recall, we found later on in Sylvanas' UD TFT campaign that Garithos was actually under the control of the Dreadlords. While I have no doubt Garithos would have been an asshole regardless of the mind control, Kael remaining with him would have potentially caused the rest of the Blood Elves to die during the Forsaken's assault on the Undercity.

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Starfire

You know, I am surprisingly ok with Vashj in WC3. Why? Because we know she's sent there by Azshara. But in TBC, she's isolated from Azshara and still the whole plot with the water doesn't feel developed.

And yeah, the whole Illidari thing is weird too. Why aren't there Illidari soldiers in Hellfire? or Zangarmarsh? or Nagrand? I mean really, am I suppose to believe Allerian Hold / Wildhammer Stronghold / Shadowmoon Village keeps all the Illidari in Shadowmoon? Illidan doesn't feel like Lord of Outlands, Kael'thas does. Kael'thas' Blood Elves are far more spreadout.

That said, I can kind of see attacking Illidan. If and only if to retake Karabor for the Draenei.

 

Emory

There is a camp of Illidari on the western edge of Hellfire Peninsula, searching for artifacts by using enslaved Broken. Also, don't forget that the Naga are loyal to Illidan, since Vashj is loyal to Illidan; therefore, areas that the Naga control are also Illidan's territory. Kaelthas is also not openly defying Illidan and is pretending to be on Illidan's side. At least, I can't think of any open Kaelthas vs. Illidari conflicts in Outland.

EDIT: The Fel Horde is also under the control of Illidan.

 

Emeraude

Outland was divided before we got there.

Here's your map: Image:WorldMap-Expansion01.jpg - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft Illidan's combined forces own 4 territories(Hellfire/Shadowmoon/Zangar/Netherstorm), while Shattrath mainly protects Nagrand/Terrokar.

You had Illidan, and the Black Temple and the bulk of his forces out in Shadowmoon Valley.
You have the Fel Orcs, who are using the power of an enslaved Pitlord out in Hellfire Pen. These Orcs answer directly to Illidan.
You have the Naga Forces who dominate and control most of Zangarmarsh.
And you have Kael's Blood Elf Forces controlling Netherstorm.
Terrokar is territory protected by Shattrath's Aldor Scryer and Sha'tar forces, as well as a kind of wall protecting ->
Nagrand's remaining Orc/Broken tribes from direct attacks from Illidan's forces.

Blade's Edge seems to be the most contested of the 7 Zones, with Gruul's sons, the Orges who are enslaved by Gruul's sons, the Half Orges, Black Dragons, and the Demons all vying for control.

In regards to Vashj, she was given control of Zangarmarsh and that is the main source of Outland's water supplies, it may not be anything flashy or as drastic as Kael/Illidan, but it works. She wasn't exactly the most developed of characters.

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Starfire

You've certainly won me to your side yet again. Still, I don't think it'd be too much to ask to see token Illidari troops in Hellfire or Netherstorm. You know... Illidari Overseers or something in Hellfire Citadel.

 

Emeraude

It's the opposite in fact, you have to remember that the Illidari are Illidan's loyalists(there are none outside of Shadowmoon Valley/Black Temple), and Illidan is fearing for his life from the Legion's forces(And specifically Kil'Jaeden who he broke a pact with). Shadowmoon in fact, if you notice, has the most diverse amount of demons/blood elves/fel orcs for this reason alone. Whereas his other forces in the 4 zones I mentioned above are delegated control to Commanders(Kael'thas/Kargath Bladefist/Vashj). You won't see Illidan looking over their shoulders because he feels they can handle it, and send him more forces to protect himself. This is also why it was so easy for Kael to betray Illidan and ally himself with the Legion, even Illidan wasn't aware of it, because he has no eyes or ears outside of Shadowmoon Valley.

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Axl_Stukov

But Illidan was quite aware of Kael'thas betraying him, he sends you(Well, he tells Akama, who has you put on the Ashtounge disguise.) to kill Al'ar and show Kael'thas that he knows of his betrayal.

 

Emeraude

I'd go as far as to say Illidan has suspicions of Kael's loyalty, but he didn't know before Akama told him. He put on that "I'm your boss, and I'll end you for thinking you could possibly know something I don't." line, but it was quite obvious from the dialog he didn't know. The Scryers didn't even know, and they had defected relatively recently from Kael's forces.

As you can see, it didn't surprise him, but he also didn't know.

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Lezwyn

Illidan saved the broken after arriving in Outlands, likely because he saw a potential ally in them, but the broken were portrayed as good then, as hiding from the tyranny of the orcs/legion and Illidan always treated them (and his other lieutenants) well in the WCIII campaign, quite a contrast to the enslaved broken you meet in TBC early on. All the things he did in Outlands in WCIII were 'good' , killing off demons, saving innocent races, it was personal power he was after, not necessarily dominion over lots of people, so I never liked the 'Illidan, the cruel master of Outlands, we have to kill him' introduction you get after entering the place.

I wonder if Blizzard can implement their intent to make the player's campaign to Northrend a ploy by the Lich King, used to lure potential powerful soldiers to him and corrupt them and use them as his champions, properly. I mean, if they try to mimic what Arthas did go through, endless corruption, devastation, snow, hopelessness, loneliness, that might offset a number of players.

 

Valerys

If I'm not mistaken, there are Illidari demons in SW corner of HFP, overseeing some Broken slaves. The demons in Nagrand are not Illidari though, it's a Burning Legion forge camp.

 

Malleus

The interesting question is why Akama asks us to kill Al'ar. OK, he's opposed to Illidan and wants to break free of his control, but this is an order Akama shouldn't have any problem with following as it creates dissent amongst his enemies. Not trusting his own people is a wholly specious argument, as what he can't trust them to do is not follow Illidan's orders. And Kael's going to be just as pissed with the Ashtongue as if they'd done it themselves, because we have to do it disguised as them.

Really, I have to wonder what's going on there. If Akama isn't allied with Kael, it makes no sense.