Wrath of Lich King Stuff (was 'Blizzcon' thread) - Page 211

Dancing Wu Li Master · 07/10/08, 9:52 AM

Originally Posted by Bullshot

I wouldn't read too much into the entire city being destroyed. I remember reading a blue post last week where it was explicitly mentioned that events such as an entire city being razed will not happen since it'd hamper low level players; however I can't for the life of me find that post now.

They've shown they're willing to inconvenience lowbies for brief periods; I don't know about other servers, but I've seen some colossal gank-fests in Booty Bay when the guards are drunk.

Of course they wouldn't destroy Org, but they could make some buildings into smouldering ruins, etc. As long as all of the vendors / quest givers are still available in the long run it doesn't hurt lowbies significantly. They can survive a day without them. "Razing" just seems a lot more extreme than the previous invasions, which were closer to "tickling".

Kumar · 07/10/08, 10:32 AM

The razing or Org will be limited to some damage to its main entrance IMO, my guess is a similar attack on Stormwind will happen too, since these are two main Hub cities for both factions.

Addled · 07/10/08, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing Wu Li Master

They've shown they're willing to inconvenience lowbies for brief periods; I don't know about other servers, but I've seen some colossal gank-fests in Booty Bay when the guards are drunk.

Of course they wouldn't destroy Org, but they could make some buildings into smouldering ruins, etc. As long as all of the vendors / quest givers are still available in the long run it doesn't hurt lowbies significantly. They can survive a day without them. "Razing" just seems a lot more extreme than the previous invasions, which were closer to "tickling".

Just have Arthas attack some rarely-used city. Darnassus for the Allies, and TB/Silvermoon City for the Horde.

I very rarely see people in those cities, mostly bank alts and lowbies passing through to get to better leveling zones.

Tacitus · 07/10/08, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Kumar

What, to me, would be a great thing for Blizzard to do instead would be to have the Lich King, send his army to Silvermoon City, more specifically, to siege Sunwell Plateau in some way. After all, the Sunwell has been restored, and I am sure Arthas can cook up some way on how it will be useful to him. This could also potentially lead to some role for the Naaru in Northrend.

Go do the bombing run daily and look closer at what the Burning Legion demons are fighting...

ZulazeeluIcecrown · 07/10/08, 11:53 AM

I read the entire thread where a blue poster (the world event designer, I can't recall her name right now) mentioned a major city being razed. Here's the interesting part: no player had mentioned anything like that. And she came out with something like "Well, I wouldn't expect Orgrimmar to be razed or anything like that." Specifically mentioning Orgrimmar and razing for the first time in the thread.

Given the Garrosh text above, and previous crafty Blizzard statements, I'm tempted to assume she was engaging in a bit of dramatic irony for the benefit of her coworkers. And perhaps foreshadowing for us players, heh.

Smurrf · 07/10/08, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Tacitus

Go do the bombing run daily and look closer at what the Burning Legion demons are fighting...

I always did wonder about that...it'd have made sense to see BL battling Elves. It always struck me as odd to see them beating up on undead - I chalked it up to something going on in SWP that I hadn't seen yet.

Kumar · 07/10/08, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Tacitus

Go do the bombing run daily and look closer at what the Burning Legion demons are fighting...

That seems to do more with them battling the Scourge present already on the Island, we have no indiciation that it was a new force sent from Northrend. I am talking about a new siege of the Sunwell by the Scourge.

Terp · 07/10/08, 1:13 PM

Attacking Silvermoon/Undercity/Darnassus is a lot less preposterous than a Scourge army suddenly showing up at the gates of Orgrimmar or Stormwind.

• Tsook · 07/10/08, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by Kumar

That seems to do more with them battling the Scourge present already on the Island, we have no indiciation that it was a new force sent from Northrend. I am talking about a new siege of the Sunwell by the Scourge.

If you look in the water to the south, there's actually undead under there as well. I always assumed they're an invasion force marching straight up from the seafloor. Doesn't indicate coming from Northerend since they're coming from the south -- but maybe they see the Scar as a weak point and their best entrance.

songster · 07/10/08, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by ZulazeeluIcecrown

I read the entire thread where a blue poster (the world event designer, I can't recall her name right now) mentioned a major city being razed. Here's the interesting part: no player had mentioned anything like that. And she came out with something like "Well, I wouldn't expect Orgrimmar to be razed or anything like that." Specifically mentioning Orgrimmar and razing for the first time in the thread.

Given the Garrosh text above, and previous crafty Blizzard statements, I'm tempted to assume she was engaging in a bit of dramatic irony for the benefit of her coworkers. And perhaps foreshadowing for us players, heh.

OR... she was well aware that the Garrosh text had been leaked, and was directly telling us that it doesn't mean what it looks like, and that no cities are getting destroyed.

Alhena · 07/10/08, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Munorion

My thoughts exactly, and much the same goes for Kael. In TFT, you could very much sympathize with him - he was being treated like dirt by Garrithos and the humans, his people had just been nearly annihilated, his main goal was just the survival of his race.
Come WoW, we get "Oh, he's been driven insane by his thirst for demonic magic, sorry. Here, go kill him." That's not to say that the Kael fight isn't great, it's one of the coolest in WoW (as far as I can judge), and actually they managed to integrate it into the overall storyline fairly well (Sunwell and all) - but I still think they kind of wasted a very interesting character.

I think they could have made Kael truly tragic if they'd wanted to.

Imagine if you will, walking into Kael's room, finishing off the last of his trash, and hearing something like this.

"I know why you're here. You imagine yourselves heroes, coming to strike me down for colluding with demons.

But your dreams will shatter. Your hopes will fail. The Legion is endless, and nothing can save you from it; not your strength, your magic, not your false hope in the Light. You may triumph on the battlefield today. But against the Legion, there can be no victory.

Join, or burn to ash. We all must choose."

Imagine if they'd portrayed him as throwing in with the legion out of despair, thinking that the mortal races simply couldn't win, and that the only way to preserve his people was to join the Legion.

I always got the impression that Kael's change of allegiance was more about pragmatism than madness. Illidan got himself into a bad position: Lord of Outland, but with nobody he can really trust, surrounded by those he has betrayed or worked against, fighting a war he must surely lose. Kael already could be seen as doing what he felt was best for his followers.

My alternative scenario is still "oh, he's evil now", but it's a much more compelling and convincing reason than "I am crazy and addicted to magic and/or the sound of my own voice." It would fit right in with Warcraft's oft-lauded tradition of moral ambiguity and greyness.

Aonea · 07/10/08, 2:34 PM

Originally Posted by Tsook

If you look in the water to the south, there's actually undead under there as well. I always assumed they're an invasion force marching straight up from the seafloor. Doesn't indicate coming from Northerend since they're coming from the south -- but maybe they see the Scar as a weak point and their best entrance.

Well, I believe that once Arthas had used the Sunwell to revive Kel'thuzad, he had left some Scourge forces there to cause havoc while they went off to Dalaran. So that is probably the forces there right now, tho he could certainly send more up the Dead Scar from the Ghostlands if needed.

Ironically, Sunwell provides a very big connection to WotLK. We really hadn't seen much of the Lich King since WC3:TFT, until the invasion when Naxx came out. Lorewise, I assume the progression would be something like this:

Scourge forces are being stymied in the Plaguelands by the Alliance/horde. Lich King sends Naxx down to act a base of operations. We break into Naxx and defeat his forces there (tho Kel'thuzad's phlanctrapy probably will end up back in Scourge hands). He, along with the Alliance/horde, are surprised by the Dark Portal opening. We go off to fight the Legion in Outland. Lich King realizes Kil'jaeden may make another attempt to kill him so he begins work on consolidating and updating his forces in Northrend.

Now, his forces come under attack at the Sunwell. He sees that Legion forces are there. Now, he previously used the Sunwell to ressurect Kel'thuzad, plus he also helped to summon Archimonde back in WC3. He realizes the forces there are gonna try and use it to summon Kil'jaeden, but sees the Alliance/Horde forces are there fighting them.

(Here is where I speculate)

While this is going on, he marshals a large fleet to carry an attak force to attack the Sunwell, to stop Kil'jaeden's summoning himself. But, while enroute, he senses our defeating Kil'jaeden and the revitalization of the Sunwell as a fount of Holy energy. He realizes that going there would be pointless, but his fleet is still active. So he decides to use it a show of force. While he could attack Undercity or Silvermoon, both can rienforce each other quickly and the Sunwell forces are close by as well. And while he could go for Stormwind, its far away and not likely to land without having been detected.

On the other hand, Ogrimmar is along the coast, with easy access from the water and Teldrassil is also in the water and both are isolated form easy reinforcements. Plus, Ogrimmar is Thrall's base and arguably the capital for the Horde, and Teldrassil is the home of the Night Elves, and would be a great blow to them if destroyed. So he sends his forces at both while we are distracted at Sunwell.

Now, he has more powerful forces and is drawing both the Horde and Alliance to Northrend, his home territory, where he can birng the full power of his forces to bear and weaken both sides forces till he can crush them at once.

Talgog · 07/10/08, 2:55 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing Wu Li Master

They've shown they're willing to inconvenience lowbies for brief periods; I don't know about other servers, but I've seen some colossal gank-fests in Booty Bay when the guards are drunk.

In connection with the launch of Burning Crusade, Blizzard implemented Highlord Kruul aka Krullol (after the suicide Level 1's). For those unfamiliar with this brutality:

YouTube - Highlord Kruul Does Stormwind
YouTube - Kruul Visits Orgrimmar

The attacks on the cities were basically unstoppable and killed everyone who was present.

Shandara · 07/10/08, 3:20 PM

I think inconveniencing 'lowbies' at this stage of the game is only going to affect a very very small percentage of the playerbase. Most lowbies are more likely alt #7 of someone.

More likely the actual real lowbies would enjoy something epic to happen to them. Blizzard's approach to server-wide events always reeked to me of 'just not quite'. Then again, with the amount of servers and locations to cover in them, I don't think it'd be possible for Blizzard to organise an active GM-driven event (like they've been prone to do on test servers).

Dancing Wu Li Master · 07/10/08, 3:21 PM

Originally Posted by Talgog

In connection with the launch of Burning Crusade, Blizzard implemented Highlord Kruul aka Krullol (after the suicide Level 1's). For those unfamiliar with this brutality:

YouTube - Highlord Kruul Does Stormwind
YouTube - Kruul Visits Orgrimmar

The attacks on the cities were basically unstoppable and killed everyone who was present.

Wasn't he just kited to the cities in those cases?

Kinv · 07/10/08, 3:24 PM

Razing of Orgrimmar could simply be them lighting it on fire again like the end of BC beta.

Axl_Stukov · 07/10/08, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing Wu Li Master

Wasn't he just kited to the cities in those cases?

No that's Kruul, who could spawn in front of the cities during the BC event, but the only reason he was "unstopable" was because of the constant chain of lowbies feeding him 10% HP every second.

Talgog · 07/10/08, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing Wu Li Master

Wasn't he just kited to the cities in those cases?

Nope, the kited one would be Kazzak, which players figured out fairly early on was a perfect WMD.

Lord Kazzak (tactics) - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft - Old school Kazzak.

YouTube - Lord Kazzak - Player-created assault on Stormwind. Everyone dies.

Kruul was Blizzard's intentional mimic of that. Still the perfect self-healing WMD.

Highlord Kruul - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Malleus · 07/10/08, 3:51 PM

Originally Posted by Alhena

I think they could have made Kael truly tragic if they'd wanted to.

Imagine if they'd portrayed him as throwing in with the legion out of despair, thinking that the mortal races simply couldn't win, and that the only way to preserve his people was to join the Legion.

Then he would be Saruman, and we would be playing LOTRO.

PSGarak · 07/10/08, 4:39 PM

My idea of an in-game razing of ORG is that about half the city is occupied by scourge, probably the valley of spirits and the big open baazzar in front, with constant battle-lines near Thrall's place and the entrance to the valley of honor. All of the NPCs get moved to refuge huts inside the safe places, ziggurats spring up in the valley of spirits and a necropolis on top of the burnt husk of the bank with a raid boss inside. ORG remains functional while becoming a war zone. At the end of the event, the undead structures collapse and most of the NPCs move back, but the bank operates from a burnt shell and the valley of spirits stays defiled.

Perhaps it will be a test/demonstration of destructable terrain and siege equipment?

Kumar · 07/10/08, 5:09 PM

Originally Posted by Alhena

I think they could have made Kael truly tragic if they'd wanted to.

Imagine if you will, walking into Kael's room, finishing off the last of his trash, and hearing something like this.

"I know why you're here. You imagine yourselves heroes, coming to strike me down for colluding with demons.

But your dreams will shatter. Your hopes will fail. The Legion is endless, and nothing can save you from it; not your strength, your magic, not your false hope in the Light. You may triumph on the battlefield today. But against the Legion, there can be no victory.

Join, or burn to ash. We all must choose."

Imagine if they'd portrayed him as throwing in with the legion out of despair, thinking that the mortal races simply couldn't win, and that the only way to preserve his people was to join the Legion.

I always got the impression that Kael's change of allegiance was more about pragmatism than madness. Illidan got himself into a bad position: Lord of Outland, but with nobody he can really trust, surrounded by those he has betrayed or worked against, fighting a war he must surely lose. Kael already could be seen as doing what he felt was best for his followers.

Kael didn't support the Legion because he saw it as inevitable, he supported them because they promised him the magical power that would help his people survive. And the magical power that he did get, as shown in TK and in Sunwell trailer, corrupted him to an extent.

Sunwell has a big history tied to Arthas, so I think its a brilliant opportunity for Blizzard to use for some even before WoTLK's release.

Subsequently, they can update the Sunwell dailies to make us fight Scourge instead of the Legion.

Axanor · 07/10/08, 7:08 PM

I always figured that the scourge troops fighting the Legion on the Plateau were attacking because the scourge had just as much reason to not want Kil'Jaeden coming to Azeroth as we did.

Addled · 07/10/08, 8:01 PM

Originally Posted by Tsook

If you look in the water to the south, there's actually undead under there as well. I always assumed they're an invasion force marching straight up from the seafloor. Doesn't indicate coming from Northerend since they're coming from the south -- but maybe they see the Scar as a weak point and their best entrance.

I did rounds of Quel'Danas on my hunter, farming adamantite, and I accidentally discovered the Scourge spawn point. They spawn at an area slightly underwater, a bit south of the scar. I was swimming through the water, noticed undead spawn all around me, and went "ohcrapohcrapohcrap". Almost died too, fortunately I managed to FD in time. A new set of 8-10 undead seem to spawn every 30 seconds or so, rush the beach, and attack the nearest demon.

So yes, if anybody here is planning on exploring that area, make sure to bring backup or escape tools. Everything there seems to aggro at the drop of a pin.

If people are so against having the Scourge attack a main city, how about just having Scourge overrun EPL/WPL/Silithus/etc? Nobody goes to those zones to level anyway (much rather start on Hellfire Peninsula) and there are still significant Alliance/Horde assets in the region, such as Chillwind Point, the Bulwark, Light's Hope Chapel, etc? Plus it would allow the introduction of the new DK starting zone.

Chul · 07/10/08, 8:49 PM

People have probably thought about this already, but it seems to me that in WotLK, they cannot stick to the 13 ilvl upgrade between tiers. The reason is that at lvl 80, all the conversions from ratings and stats to % modifiers will require more than at lvl 70, but we'll be getting the same increase in stats/ratings per tier as in TBC.

For example, a piece of tiered gear gets upgraded to the next tier and gains 22 crit rating. In TBC, that would be a +1% crit upgrade. In WotLK, if we keep the same ilvl upgrade, the upgrade would only be say +0.8% crit.

In order to keep the same power increase per tier, Blizzard will need to slightly increase the ilvl difference (maybe 15 ilvls per tier).

Jagiya · 07/10/08, 8:51 PM

I think people are over-speculating the Scourge presence on the Sunwell Isle far too much.

The Scourge are merely the risen corpses of those who died during Arthas' march to Quel'Thalas. The Blood Elf starting zones demonstrate scourge from one end of the Dead Scar to the other. This is no different.

The suggestion that the "razing" of Alliance & Horde Capital Cities could be our first glimpse at destructable terrain is exciting though.

[edit: Clarity]