Would it? You could just let your warrior tank or feral tank use the orb. Making the item exclusively use mind control spell ensured that a non-traditional tank did it... priests are either dpsers or healers, not tanks.
To me, it was this element that -made- the fight. The fight was terribly simple (sans the 1% resist, sure, but there were/are ways around it... which also added to the fun... seriously, think how trivial the fight would be if you didn't need contingencies).
I think though, a good way to keep it in the "spirit" of things is maybe to perhaps make it so the adds were two humanoids an two demons... so it could either be done via priest mind control or warlock enslave.
You still need to off-tank the adds though; you can't necessarily spare a tank to use the Orb in a 10-man situation.
And the fight needs to be trivial in Wrath; it's the equivalent of Attumen.
It's also the equivalent of Hydros in the 25 man version.
It will be interesting just how similar they want the fights to be in the different version (complexity/abilities and number requirements), considering the level of complexity of Attumen compared to Hydros.
Could it be possible that the order of difficulty may be slightly more linear this time? I mean so that Raz is perhaps on the same level as Maexxna or even GWF. Downing one boss in a wing and leaving the subsequent bosses until after the other wings are cleared always seemed a little jarring to me.
Eh, you could always put belt/bracer/boot additions to the next tier, sorta like how Sunwell worked out. It'd solve the problems of essential set bonuses being able to be used for particular encounters further up the tiers.
E: re: T3 instance, not WotLK. 5pc sets worked out amazing in TBC.
I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not questioning the reasoning behind killing Raz first pre-TBC at all, I'm talking about how they might change it in Wrath. If you disregard the loot and look at it from an instance design perspective you'd think that the wings might be tiered rather than having you jumping between them midway through.
I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not questioning the reasoning behind killing Raz first pre-TBC at all, I'm talking about how they might change it in Wrath. If you disregard the loot and look at it from an instance design perspective you'd think that the wings might be tiered rather than having you jumping between them midway through.
Eh? Logically I think the design is fine.
Think of the command structure this way, in the United States Military there is the Air Force, Army, Marines, and Navy (and Coast Guard, but I am limiting this to 4).
You have the Pentagon that is effectively in charge of all 4. But within each of the branch, there are Generals or Admirals. The 4 Horseman, Maexnna, Loatheb and Thaddius are effectively the Admirals and Generals of each wing.
But there certainly were weaker wings and stronger wings, the Spider Wing was definitely the easiest and the Deathknight Wing was the hardest.
I think design wise though, it seemed brilliant because of the "Scene change" factor for new guilds. If the wings were tiered, it implies one wing must be completed before the other, that makes Naxxramas incredibly linear, the way it is now, if you can't get Patchwerks, you can go attempt Anub'Rekhan or something.
Perhaps that is part of why Naxxramas is so loved and cherished... it sort of gives it the feel that the player has an active choice in attempting to destroy this Dread Citadel.
You know what would be really cool? (And more to the point, I think more on topic with this thread, perhaps) Is if an instance (Not necessairly Naxxramas, but Naxxramas' design would of been ideal) worked similar to how the Megaman games use to. If you remember, killing one boss caused an effect on another boss. (I suppose Molten Core sort of worked like this, but it was entirely too linear to ever see the difference). Like, imagine if Deathknight Wing had spiders, but killing Maexnna would cause the spiders in the Deathknight Wing to become enraged and thus harder to kill. At the sametime, killing Loatheb would cause wild fungal growths all over the place.
Something like a system of the Bug Trio, but on a more "global" instance scale, rather than on the micro encounter scale.
So you're suggesting sort of a zone-wide version of the Karathess fight? That'd certainly be interesting and make for a more dynamic zone, but unless it didn't affect actual boss fights you'd still wind up with a "best" way to clear it, which sort of defeats the purpose in the first place.
So you're suggesting sort of a zone-wide version of the Karathess fight? That'd certainly be interesting and make for a more dynamic zone, but unless it didn't affect actual boss fights you'd still wind up with a "best" way to clear it, which sort of defeats the purpose in the first place.
Of course, if you provide incentives for doing it the "not-best" way, you could wind up with something similar to the Reverse Eredar Twins extra rewards in concept. (But hopefully not execution, as much fun as "free" extra epics are.)
So you're suggesting sort of a zone-wide version of the Karathess fight? That'd certainly be interesting and make for a more dynamic zone, but unless it didn't affect actual boss fights you'd still wind up with a "best" way to clear it, which sort of defeats the purpose in the first place.
Maybe. But as Axanor pointed out, the "harder" version could just give better loot (or more loot, rather than different loot... I always disliked the "un-shared" concept of the Bug Trio since I was always after an item on the "easier" table, while my guild wanted to do the "hard" table).
Of course, this could also open more possibilities for different guilds. Perhaps certain orders were more melee friendly, other orders were more caster friendly. So now, its irrelevant as to which is the "best" way in general, but its more what is either the "best" way for my raid.
Which in and of itself is cool. What happens when your two rogues go on summer vacation? No problem, lets try out the "caster friendly" version. Which of course, also comes with the minor "scene" change (Although, I am not sure I can call it a scene, since that kind of implies setting, rather than a few mobs).
The possibilities are endless, such a concept could really spice up the difference between a 10 man clear and 25 man clear too. -- Think of perhaps physical visual changes that could be incorporated... in terms of lighting and texture, or even night and day.
Of course, if you provide incentives for doing it the "not-best" way, you could wind up with something similar to the Reverse Eredar Twins extra rewards in concept. (But hopefully not execution, as much fun as "free" extra epics are.)
I think it would be a good way for "hardcore" achievements for a dungeon.
It doesn't give the guilds any additional loot or other major advantages but there still is a huge motivation to do it.
Arcane Fortitude moved to tier 2, increased to 3 ranks, now increases armor equal to 50/100/150% of Intellect.
Arcane Subtlety now reduces the chance your spells will be dispelled by 15/35%, and no longer reduces the resistance of targets.
Arctic Reach now also affects Deep Freeze.
Blast Wave now knocks all affected targets back.
Elemental Precision moved to tier 2.
Empowered Fireball reduced to 3 ranks, now increases damage by 5/10/15% of spell power.
Empowered Frostbolt reduced to 2 ranks, increases damage by 5/10% of spell power and increases critical hit chance by 2/4%.
Flame Throwing moved to tier 3.
Frost Channeling now reduces mana cost of all spells by 4/7/10%.
Frost Warding now increases armor and resistances of Frost/Ice Armor by 25/50%, now gives Frost Ward and Fire Ward a 15/30/5 chance to negate damage caused and restore mana equal to damage caused by the warded spell.
Ice Floes renamed Cold as Ice, now reduces cooldown of Cold Snap, Ice Barrier, Summon Water Elemental, and Deep Freeze by 10/20%.
Improved Counterspell now always silences the target for 2/4 seconds.
Improved Fire Blast moved to tier 1, reduced to 2 ranks, reduces the cooldown by 1/2 seconds.
Improved Flamestrike moved to tier 2, renamed World in Flames, now increases the critical hit chance of Flamestrike, Blast Wave, Dragon’s Breath, Living Bomb, Blizzard, and Arcane Explosion by 2/4/6%.
Improved Frost Nova renamed Ice Floes, moved to tier 1, increased to 3 ranks, now reduces cooldown of Frost Nova, Cone of Cold, Ice Block, and Icy Veins by 7/14/20%.
Magic Absorption reduced to 2 ranks, increases resistances by .5/1 point per level, and restores 1/3% of total mana on a resist.
Master of Elements now affects all spell criticals.
Mind Mastery reduced to 3/6/9/12/15%.
Molten Shields now gives Fire Ward and Frost Ward spells a 15/30% chance to reflect the warded spell.
Prismatic Cloak (Arcane)increased to 3 ranks for 1/2/3% and now also reduces the fade time of Invisibility by 1/2 seconds.
Pyroblast cast time has been reduced to 5 seconds.
Shatter no longer has a prerequisite.
Shamans:
Flametongue Weapon: Now has a passive spell damage.
Nature’s Blessing no longer increases spell damage from Intellect, and the effect has been reduced to 5/10/15% from 10/20/30%. This is in result of the new spell power system. Players should notice little to no change in the power of the spell relevant to healing spells.
New Talent: Tidal Force- Increases the critical effect chance of your Healing Wave, Lesser Healing Wave and Chain Heal by 60%. Each critical heal reduces the chance by 20% and lasts 20 seconds.
Stoneclaw Totem: Health of the Stoneclaw totem is increased by 5% of the Shaman’s total health.
The range of all “friendly totems” has been increased to 30 yards, up from 20.
Totemic Mastery talent removed and replaced with “Tidal Force”.
Arenas:
Buffs that have 30 seconds or less remaining will be removed once the game starts. However, the mage spell “Invisibility” is not affected by this change.
Flametongue Weapon: Now has a passive spell damage.
Nature’s Blessing no longer increases spell damage from Intellect, and the effect has been reduced to 5/10/15% from 10/20/30%. This is in result of the new spell power system. Players should notice little to no change in the power of the spell relevant to healing spells.
New Talent: Tidal Force- Increases the critical effect chance of your Healing Wave, Lesser Healing Wave and Chain Heal by 60%. Each critical heal reduces the chance by 20% and lasts 20 seconds.
Stoneclaw Totem: Health of the Stoneclaw totem is increased by 5% of the Shaman’s total health.
The range of all “friendly totems” has been increased to 30 yards, up from 20.
Totemic Mastery talent removed and replaced with “Tidal Force”.
Does the Flametongue weapon change apply to Flametongue Totem as well?
Tidal Force is nice, I suppose, but it feels like a cheap knockoff of Divine Favor with an additional chance proc thrown in to make it feel "sexy".
It's also the equivalent of Hydros in the 25 man version.
It will be interesting just how similar they want the fights to be in the different version (complexity/abilities and number requirements), considering the level of complexity of Attumen compared to Hydros.
The problem with these comparisons is there was no 25-man Attumen in TBC. Hydross was more on par with Razorgore (2nd tier entry boss) than Attumen (first tier entry boss). While the general statement that gear from 25 mans will be a "tier ahead" of the 10 man versions will probably be maintained, if they want to maintain the design philosophy that a raid can skip all 10 mans and not miss out on anything, and vice-versa, then 25-man Razuvious (and, subsequently, at least about half the zone beyond) has to be completable with only dungeon/heroic/crafted gear, and no gear from Naxx-10.
I honestly can't say if Hydross can be reasonably completed with only dungeon/heroic/crafted and ilvl 110 badge gear, especially since it's basically a resist check anyway. It probably can be. But my point is that there really is no comparable boss/difficulty position in TBC. The closest we have is Lucifron in Vanilla, and there have been a LOT of design changes since that time that invalidate the comparison.
Tidal Force is nice, I suppose, but it feels like a cheap knockoff of Divine Favor with an additional chance proc thrown in to make it feel "sexy".
I think it is a better talent. While Divine Favor is 100% for one crit, the Tidal Force will most likely give you 3 crits, however it is not controlled.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Forgive me for asking if it is already known, but I have not been able to find out. Will the 25man version of a dungeon drop T8 and the 10man version T7? Or will the 25man version drop T8 and the 10man version also T8 but with lower stats but same set bonus?
Forgive me for asking if it is already known, but I have not been able to find out. Will the 25man version of a dungeon drop T8 and the 10man version T7? Or will the 25man version drop T8 and the 10man version also T8 but with lower stats but same set bonus?
Well, they have said that the 10man and 25man pieces will be combinable for set bonuses, so my guess will be that they are of the same tier, but a tier apart in terms of stats. However no one knows for certain at this point.
They're probably going to work like the PVP sets, not like the current T6, where you can have the "gimpy" 10 man breastplate, or the full stats 25 man one, and the set bonus part of the tooltip will just show "Earthshatter Chestpiece" or whatever lit up.
Forgive me if its been covered somewhere else but how will lockout timers function for 10 vs. 25 mans? If you attend the 10 man version of "Raid instance X" will that also lock you out of the 25 man version and vice-versa? Or will they be entirely separate?
Originally Posted by Fellwraith
[Y]ou will tank 3 mobs, and only 3 mobs. 5 shalt thou not tank, nor shalt thou tank 4. Thou shalt not tank 2 mobs unless it is on the way to tanking 3 mobs.
Forgive me if its been covered somewhere else but how will lockout timers function for 10 vs. 25 mans? If you attend the 10 man version of "Raid instance X" will that also lock you out of the 25 man version and vice-versa? Or will they be entirely separate?
Entirely separate. You can do both in the same week.
08/02/08, 1:16 AM
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