Wrath of Lich King Stuff (was 'Blizzcon' thread) - Page 262

Grizlor · 08/14/08, 2:34 AM

Argh, so much for rank 1 earth/frost shock and rank 1 magma totem. They need to just do something else with earth shock and give shamans air shock which does no damage and is off the GCD (hell, it could still share the 6 second cooldown with all the other shocks and I'd be perfectly happy).

typobox · 08/14/08, 2:38 AM

Originally Posted by Vihermaali

And WotLK just keeps getting better and better. Guess mindless spam isn't a viable form of healing anymore, huh?

Unless talented for it of course.

When low on mana first reaction shouldn't be switching to a lower rank spell and continuing spam. Hopefully this will bring some need of intelligence for healing. On some level at least.

Personally, I feel that downranking is one of the things that actually brings some intelligence to healing. Mindless max-rank spam until you start getting low isn't particularly intelligent, of course, but careful selection of ranks for each heal so that you never end up getting low unnecessarily is.

Zaroua · 08/14/08, 2:50 AM

I'd personally like to see further changes to downranking very low level spells. I'm of course talking about rank1 Frostbolt to snare, rank 1 DoTs to force Rogues to blow CloS or rank1 dummy spell to eat Spell Reflect/Grounding Totem. Perhaps increase the cast time or multiply the mana cost even more?

Shakes · 08/14/08, 3:12 AM

Originally Posted by typobox

Personally, I feel that downranking is one of the things that actually brings some intelligence to healing. Mindless max-rank spam until you start getting low isn't particularly intelligent, of course, but careful selection of ranks for each heal so that you never end up getting low unnecessarily is.

I think this is especially true for shaman and paladins, who don't have the variety of healing spell choices that priests and druids have available to them. It would be nice if while they're removing downranking they also took the time to flesh out the spell books of those classes to give them some more choices while healing.

It seems strange to me that while they're actively trying to move DPS classes into having to make more choices of which spell they'll use (eg no more mash shadow bolt key entire raid), they're removing choices for healers.

Grizlor · 08/14/08, 3:21 AM

Shamans and paladins also don't recover nearly as well once out of mana as druids/priests, who can get upwards of 2k mana back during a short 10-15 second mana break due to the fact that they utilize spirit.

Edit: Also, the healing model they seem to be aiming for is timing big heals rather than conserving mana spamming dowranked heals, which also favors spirit regen. The entire purpose of downranking is to achieve similar hp/s to timing max ranks but with a steadier flow of healing done. Paladins can somewhat still achieve this with FOL spam, but shamans really will have nothing to fill the niche that rank 2 chain heal currently fills.

Fold · 08/14/08, 3:55 AM

I think this is new information, if it's been mentioned already my apologies -- but I thought it was awesome enough to post.

Ellyh · 08/14/08, 3:58 AM

This down ranking change affects healing massively with raid healing is going to be changed the most. Off the top of my head I foresee the following for raid healing.

-HoTs will become far more important than they are now for tank healing.
-Cancel casting will become the approach dejour for tank healing, unless your a holy priest with massive overheal refunding.
-Boss burst will probably have to be reduced to prevent healers going oom keeping the tank at 90-100%.
-From my limited experience attempting Brutallis he and fights like him will be impossible without the healers running dry. This may also impact on Patchwerk 2.0

It also effects the different healers very differently. Given the current talents and abilities I believe that the spirit focus of druids and priests will massively benefit them in the new system. Holy priests will do best with 16% clearcast and 60% refund on overhealing. Druids and disc priests come next as they can't get out of the 5 sec rule as easily. Then come shammies who really should be raid healing if they can. Finally way down the bottom come pallies who are really hurting from this as they rely on downranking to be functional as they have very very poor regen abilities. I have a nasty feeling that holy pallies may be back to mashing flash of light non stop on the tank as a pseudo hot because of how bad the efficiency on holy light is.

Lanlaorn · 08/14/08, 4:11 AM

The downranking change is just slightly annoying because many times your max rank heal is simply too large. Sometimes you only need a G Heal 4's worth of healing, and Blizzard is effectively forcing us to just overheal the tank anyway with G Heal 7 because they cost the same mana anyway.

The whole reason casters retain their lower level spells (unlike melee for whom each new rank overwrites the old) is that sometimes situations call for the old rank rather than the new.

Roywyn · 08/14/08, 4:15 AM

The problem I see is:
Johnny McMage is at 11k/12k HP. You can either:
A) Leave him there and hope that nothing happens.
B) Drop a 4k Flash Heal on him.

In the current raid setting, A) would likely get him killed. You could heal some other injured targets and hope that the last jump of a Chain Heal or a CoH ot AA or Flourish or BoL or some other AoE heal tops him off.

The lack of a cheap and small heal to top people off worries me a bit.

But let's just wait and see!

Phillyt · 08/14/08, 4:56 AM

I don't have much to say on the down ranking except I really want Blizzard to make our spell books similar to rogues and warriors, in that we only have the highest rank of our spell in the book. If the mana cost goes live, there is no point for lower ranks of spells.

Kela · 08/14/08, 5:10 AM

Originally Posted by Phillyt

I don't have much to say on the down ranking except I really want Blizzard to make our spell books similar to rogues and warriors, in that we only have the highest rank of our spell in the book. If the mana cost goes live, there is no point for lower ranks of spells.

It already does that on beta, in a checkbox on the Spells/Abilities panel.

Blizzard's opinion of downranking (that it wasn't intended) I dont think is relevant. This game evolves, and I believe that healers evolved (along time ago) to a point where downranking is a part of the class, removing that simplifies the game way too much, especially when we all have auto-targetting AoE heals now.

Question is, how are they going to balance raids around max ranks? If mana regen is buffed to the point where you can spam max rank as you do lower rank currently, then we're back to the problem that downranking caused in the first place. Ontop of that, you've greatly reduced the effect talent and skill had in this game.
If mana becomes a slight challenge, will boss -> tank damage output be easily predictable or reduced?

I really can't see how this is a good thing in any aspect of the game, PvP especially.

Jerry · 08/14/08, 5:49 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

The lack of a cheap and small heal to top people off worries me a bit.

There is still a cheap and small heal to top people off. It's called Lifebloom.

bithalver · 08/14/08, 7:13 AM

Warlock
- Dark Pact: Tooltip updated to be more consistent with other similar effects and now restores 200% mana leeched from your summoned Demon, up from 100%.
- Ritual of Souls: Charges increased to 25, up from 10.

Two very good changes !

- affliction lock will never use lifetap again (think on imp's 200% increased mana regen; I do not know the situation with felhunter)
- 25 charges for ritual of souls is totally necessary and long awaited.

Big hurray from me !

cutfang · 08/14/08, 9:13 AM

Originally Posted by Jerry

There is still a cheap and small heal to top people off. It's called Lifebloom.

Well druids have lifebloom and paladins have flash of light, but priests and shamans will have to use the horribly inefficient Lesser Healing Wave and Flash Heals. It may be that we'll have to co-ordinate healing so that druids and paladins end up healing minor raid damage while priests stick to the tanks, but its early days still.

Mideci · 08/14/08, 9:30 AM

I will miss you Rank 1, Circle of Healing. You are a better spell than max rank, imo. But that said, I will not miss the silly PVP gimmickry that rank 1 spells have allowed. I will not miss the pretentious theorycrafters that tell me using Greater Heal 4 makes me a bad priest because everyone knows I should be using Greater Heal 2 and 6, or whatever. There is going to need to be a LOT of tweaking, however, to get this right for healers. Because there was skill in downranking. And I can't >>believe<< they are saying it was never intended. They designed a billion items to support its use. Certainly for priests and paladins. Then they went ahead and explicitly nerfed >>part<< of it some time back.

I guess we'll have to reserve judgement and see what happens. In the meantime, I'm going to get in the habit of flashing people again.

Mman · 08/14/08, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Zaroua

I'd personally like to see further changes to downranking very low level spells. I'm of course talking about rank1 Frostbolt to snare, rank 1 DoTs to force Rogues to blow CloS or rank1 dummy spell to eat Spell Reflect/Grounding Totem. Perhaps increase the cast time or multiply the mana cost even more?

Rank 1 frostbolt, talented, has a cast time of 1 second (as opposed to 2.5 for a full power one). As long as that remains mages are still going to be using it. The fact that it used to cost nothing was just a perk.

Brennik · 08/14/08, 10:28 AM

I'm also worried about the effect the downranking change is going to have in PvP. No more using r1 trash buffs as dispel protection, no more r1 DoTs as disple bait... But I guess some dispel mechanic changes were coming anyway.

PvE-wise, I'll be happy if the intention is to move away from spamming your most optimum rank heal and back to the cancel-casting, mana saving era of vanilla WoW. Could be just me though.

Playered · 08/14/08, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

The problem I see is:
Johnny McMage is at 11k/12k HP. You can either:
A) Leave him there and hope that nothing happens.
B) Drop a 4k Flash Heal on him.

In the current raid setting, A) would likely get him killed. You could heal some other injured targets and hope that the last jump of a Chain Heal or a CoH ot AA or Flourish or BoL or some other AoE heal tops him off.

The lack of a cheap and small heal to top people off worries me a bit.

But let's just wait and see!

If being 'only' 11k/12k is enough for him to die then you will use your smaller heals on them regardless of how much it will overheal because the fact it will save their life means it was worth every bit of mana it cost (assuming no one else is assigned to do it or able to). I don't see where in the current raid setting this would happen though? (Naj'entus being a special case but that's a base line health value requirement regardless of maximum)

If they will not die from being 11k/12k then you will not waste your mana on a 75% overheal spell and leave it to the classes who are better suited to healing small amounts (this assumes non-finite mana), wait for them to take more damage or use (as a Priest) PW:S, PoM, or Renew which have higher chances to be more effective than your Flash spell assuming they will take more damage over a period of time.

Douglas · 08/14/08, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Lanlaorn

The downranking change is just slightly annoying because many times your max rank heal is simply too large. Sometimes you only need a G Heal 4's worth of healing, and Blizzard is effectively forcing us to just overheal the tank anyway with G Heal 7 because they cost the same mana anyway.

Eh, just changes gear priorities. Lots of people were using +heal as an endurance stat -- get more +heal, downrank, more mana longevity. Now, to get mana longevity, you have to gear for mana longevity stats (mp5 or spi), not raw throughput stats (spellpower).

I like the change.

There are times when people used downranking for reasons ultimately other than mana efficiency, such as shorter casting time, or the reduction of one effect (damage) for a better chance at another (debuff application). I expect those trade-offs will still be possible, but will be via glpyhs instead of downranking.

levk · 08/14/08, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

The problem I see is:
Johnny McMage is at 11k/12k HP. You can either:
A) Leave him there and hope that nothing happens.
B) Drop a 4k Flash Heal on him.

Things like these put the extra chain heal jump and FoL HoT glyphs into perspective. There's also lifebloom and don't forget that if healing stream totem is raidwide, it does scale with spellpower and will heal up 1k in 5-6 ticks or so if there's time.

berg · 08/14/08, 11:32 AM

The down ranking modification will have an interesting impact on Shaman interrupts.

Talented earth shock will cost just a tad over 1000 mana. Max rank Mana burn is for around 1500 mana.

Kind of a lose/lose situation for the Shaman.

Playered · 08/14/08, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Douglas

Eh, just changes gear priorities. Lots of people were using +heal as an endurance stat -- get more +heal, downrank, more mana longevity. Now, to get mana longevity, you have to gear for mana longevity stats (mp5 or spi), not raw throughput stats (spellpower).

That is an excellent point.
Stacking healing and downranking was in most cases far superior to using max ranks and having endurance stats to support it.

Int & MP5 became really weak stats and gem choices alone should of let off serious warning signs to people that this issue remained strong.

The problem(?) was the control it let players have over their mana pool; short fights ment they could afford to use higher ranks and longer fights ment they just had to downrank more to enable their mana pool to last.

An example being Naj'entus and Council (granted the spirit revamp made this less so) - I could easily afford to max rank RG on Naj' due to the short nature of the fight, on IC I would have to downrank slightly (if raid healing like on Naj') in order to allow my mana to endure as the fight lasted more than twice as long (for us).

Being able to recapture that ability to control my mana on short fights vs long fights will be one of the key things they need to look at. They could assume no one would need their cooldown abilities (Divine Plea, Innervate, SFiend, Mana Tide, Evocation) on the short encounters and that they were there to allow you to endure the longer encounters for example.

Lunkhedd · 08/14/08, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Fiola

But how much threat do you actually lose using SoW, versus the threat you gain by having more mana regen? Seal damage looks like it's going to be a smaller part of overall threat generation (new holy damage abilities that scales off BV and AP), so the net gain from using SoW is probably better than it'd seem.

I don't think anyone has a really good model of how much of a paladin's threat the seal and judgement will be yet. My initial estimates, which underestimate seal damage by not counting procs off HotR, have the seal around 13-15% of total threat when mana isn't an issue (i.e. can afford to use expensive stuff like Consecration), and the judgement a bit higher, but if I'm wrong on stat ratios (very likely), that could be way off. Keep in mind that judging SoW is only 80% of the threat of SoR too, even without Seals of the Pure.

If you need mana desperately, sure you'll use SoW, and it'll be vastly better than not having any mana, but that doesn't mean it'll be a sufficient solution in a mana burn encounter.

Blizzard could always hack around the issue by doing things like have the mana burns not hit the primary aggro target; we don't really know yet how much of an issue mana burn will be for paladin tanks in Wrath.

ZeroWashu · 08/14/08, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Phillyt

I don't have much to say on the down ranking except I really want Blizzard to make our spell books similar to rogues and warriors, in that we only have the highest rank of our spell in the book. If the mana cost goes live, there is no point for lower ranks of spells.

Except that its not a fair comparison, rogue and warrior abilities do not take more time to use or cost more to cast as they increase in ranks. As such there would no benefit to use a reduced rank.

Now the problem I have with this change are for spells that have dual effects, the best example are Earth Shock and Frost Bolts. Earth Shock of course is for the interrupt, using the low rank is common to keep mana for more efficient effects. For frost I have used down rank to apply winter chill effects without generating real aggro or keep a stack up after interrupt. As for grounding totem control and similar effects Ice Lance will probably be my default, its cheap and instant, well cheaper than what a down rank frost bolt will cost me now. I also liked low rank HOTs to clear bleed effects.

Kharlis · 08/14/08, 1:32 PM

Eh, just changes gear priorities. Lots of people were using +heal as an endurance stat -- get more +heal, downrank, more mana longevity. Now, to get mana longevity, you have to gear for mana longevity stats (mp5 or spi), not raw throughput stats (spellpower).

This change along with the potion quaffing debuff signififcantly changes how all caster classes evaluate regen stats.

There is a potential issue that it may increase the amount of gear that people will want to carry around (seperate sets for endurance and "burst" fights) which seems slightly counter to some of the stat consilidation that they've been doing recently, but it increases the decision making in gear choices which i personally thing is a good thing.