What? They're obviously going to rework some items if (when) they roll out this patch. Can you imagine playing an Enhance with Strength all over your gear?
They explicitly expressed an intent to revamp changes for Enhancement Shaman in the WOTLK beta forums, but a lot of people are worried because there hasn't been news about it for weeks, there have been no examples of how it's going to turn out*, and there's no indication it will be done for other classes (especially tanks).
*Enhancement Shaman STILL have MP5 on their gear and when Retribution Paladins got an itemization revamp, several socket bonuses were unchanged from providing spell damage.
*Enhancement Shaman STILL have MP5 on their gear and when Retribution Paladins got an itemization revamp, several socket bonuses were unchanged from providing spell damage.
Socket bonuses were not overlooked, but change to those were deemed too (technically) difficult to make it worth it. If I remember correctly they quite clearly stated after the warrior socket bonus change that they won't be doing that anymore.
What? They're obviously going to rework some items if (when) they roll out this patch.
Well, yes and no. The itembudget to tack Strength on Warrior gear has to come from somewhere since you can't just add it without compensation. I am quite worried that we will lose part of our avoidance/health just to be able to do pre-patch threat.
Illidan is tankable in a Shear immune set as it is now, so I am not worried about that particularily. It does pose the question if Blizz meant for us to game the system by having to create such a set in 3.0 to begin with.
Unless there is massive item retooling druids tanks are going to have some issues with the major change to their agi:dodge ratio...and a massive problem dpsing (like it wasn't hard enough) with the agi:crit change. Now I'll grant we haven't seen the new druid talents that they've been promising yet, these need to be balanced for 71 talent points not 61 points.
I'm wondering now, just how piecemeal this patch will be. Will all the mechanic changes also be going in? I mean in BC it was mainly talents that changed along with a few mechanic changes (hot stacking if I recall was a big one). The sheer number of changes this time makes me wary of how they'll be implemented, especially since a lot certainly seem to be balanced for level 80.
Final thought on this is more cynical, but I'm wondering if this pre-expansion "gift" of all the new stuff is again a prelude to a delayed expansion.
Would be nice if they unlock death knights as well but i guess thats unlikely since that class is part of the expansion and only playable by those that own it.
Jewelcrafting is only available to those with TBC installed isn't it?
It's sort of strange that inscription would be different.
That's mainly because the JC trainers are in areas that you need TBC to go to, and they include lowbie areas (Silvermoon, Exodar). Since the only new area is Northrend and you cannot expect lowbies to go there, there are trainers in current capital cities.
Final thought on this is more cynical, but I'm wondering if this pre-expansion "gift" of all the new stuff is again a prelude to a delayed expansion.
Depending on how soon they can get it out it could be a swat at WAR as well. I fully expect them to do something, hopefully just jack honor gains in BGs nearly continuously
I don't recall a major change in existing items pre-TBC so my concern is, how much can I gem out of. I think we won't see it until we see the new trees complete for all classes. Now I could see your piecemeal approach if they rolled out Inscription separately. I would like to see a dual-talent build feature rolled out early - being able to swap back and forth.
If you had to choose, what would you want to see outed? I would go for inscription to get an understanding of it. Beyond that whatever improvements they have in mind for the base UI so that more mod writers can get a leg up.
Jewelcrafting is only available to those with TBC installed isn't it?
It's sort of strange that inscription would be different.
That is correct. You could not train it but you can use items created by it. To get around this would require glyphs introduced into the loot system and/or ones unique to vendors or even class trainers or pvp rewards. If anything putting vendor patterns out for inscriptions early will give anyone interested a leg up on what the requirements will be. This would be helpful from the standpoint of not having everyone do the land rush day one of the release and instead start stocking up early on mats. Of course the side effect is that herbalism mats may go through the roof now too.
Jewelcrafting is only available to those with TBC installed isn't it?
It's sort of strange that inscription would be different.
TBC also introduced a new class which would level in Azeroth from the ground up, with one of them having a Jewelcrafting racial to encourage picking it up as you went along.
In contrast, the lack of any "new" toons in WOTLK means the only people picking up Inscription would be those who would backtrack as a ~70. Holding Inscription until the release would have dramatic effects on the Herbalism market as everyone tries to catch up.
That's mainly because the JC trainers are in areas that you need TBC to go to, and they include lowbie areas (Silvermoon, Exodar). Since the only new area is Northrend and you cannot expect lowbies to go there, there are trainers in current capital cities.
The Inscription trainers are in the Northrend version of Thrallmar/Honor Hold, and with the direct boats/Zeppelins from Stormwind/Orgrimmar, a lowbie can get there without encountering any hostiles, although I do agree that a new player might completely miss it if you can only get there by going out of your way.
Brutallus has always been tankable with stam stacking instead of avoidance stacking, and you most likely get to bring 8 healers (+1 for each side) to M'uru after the changes and DPS skyrocketing. Just saying. :P
But much like 2.0 changed Naxxramas raiding a ton (Hi, Maexxna) this will likely change current raiding in many major ways and innumerous trivial ones.
I don't really think it matters; it's like an unofficial break period for 'competitive' arena - the new talent trees are ultimately tuned with 71 spendable points in mind, and I'd bet most serious competitions and/or the tournament realms will stick to TBC talent trees much like how people stuck with CS 1.6 long after CS Source was released. Bad analogy, I know, but there you have it.
It matters because Arenas will be part of the "play with new talents" experience. Not that I expect balance, but it's fun to think about it. Feral Charge moving to 21 points is probably the biggest change that I can see with Druids, it might make Dreamstate more popular. Or more will spec Tree of Life (and imp. Tree of Life).
Another interesting one is Soul Link moved to 11 points, which mean we might see some new Warlocks specs (Destuction maybe?). And then the elephant in the room which are Fury Warriors with Titan's Grip, or just plain Warriors (maybe with Warglaives!?)
If you had to choose, what would you want to see outed? I would go for inscription to get an understanding of it. Beyond that whatever improvements they have in mind for the base UI so that more mod writers can get a leg up.
I agree Inscription would be nice to have. Functional improvements like the smooth energy regen could probably be brought out as well. The concern is the sweeping changes to classes base abilities that I think might be iffy. The large pally blessings changes are big and necessitate the tank threat changes as well. This however means tank gear needs to have the appropriate AP/Str characteristics for said increased threat.
The spellpower consolidation would be hard to implement without a massive change to all the current spell ranks. I mean its doable but a very large undertaking I would say. Similarly the downranking changes are pretty sweeping and could be problematic.
Somebody brought this up in guild chat yesterday - is anybody concerned about what impact the "3.0 patch" will have on class balancing? He was concerned that releasing the new talents before the levels/gear really accounted for them would lead to unnecessary nerfs/buffs; I think he had BC beta retribution in mind, though I don't specifically recall what happened at the time, but I'd guess it had something to do with pre-BC stamina levels skewing everything.
Any thoughts as to whether this could be problematic to that end?
Originally Posted by Bula
"They were bad, stop trying to figure out why bad players do bad things."
I agree Inscription would be nice to have. Functional improvements like the smooth energy regen could probably be brought out as well. The concern is the sweeping changes to classes base abilities that I think might be iffy. The large pally blessings changes are big and necessitate the tank threat changes as well. This however means tank gear needs to have the appropriate AP/Str characteristics for said increased threat.
The spellpower consolidation would be hard to implement without a massive change to all the current spell ranks. I mean its doable but a very large undertaking I would say. Similarly the downranking changes are pretty sweeping and could be problematic.
Speaking as a Paladin, napkin math indicates that overall threat output will be increasing, even if we did not get any gear changes. I don't know about Warriors and Druids, but I think the idea is that if your threat was at x in 2.0, and 3.0 has you at (x + AP or whatever scaling factor), then lacking any explicit AP stats still means you're going to see a non-trivial increase in threat.
Whether or not that's enough to make up our new "jawdropping" DPS, is quite another question altogether, and one we probably won't see answered until people start playing the patch.
Prinsesa, you quoted the post but didn't apparently comprehend it. No Blessing of Salvation (part of the 'large pally blessings change') would require tanks to generate at least 20-30% more threat than they are now, in the same gear.
Prinsesa, you quoted the post but didn't apparently comprehend it. No Blessing of Salvation (part of the 'large pally blessings change') would require tanks to generate at least 20-30% more threat than they are now, in the same gear.
Except that they're rolling the threat bonus from salv into tanking forms (along with the the bonus from threat talents they're dropping, like defiance, but I didn't bother looking for the source on that, since I believe it's common knowledge at this point).
Edit: Relevant section of blue post: "One change we made recently is baking in the old bonus from Blessing of Salvation into tanking forms. Up until now you were pretty much just doing without the old Salv because there was no way to replace it, and many raiding guilds will tell you that buff is (was) mandatory. Now you get it for free."
I'm rather curious, if they intend to change the mechanics of raid debuffs not stacking, wouldn't that result in more of a net loss in dps than new talents would provide? Admittedly this is from a mage's PoV, in that I'd be losing Scorch+Misery, and CoE would be the only debuff on target that I (and any other caster for that matter) would benefit from. Even for warlocks, DS getting reduced in strength seems like it'd be a net loss compared to whatever new spec at 70 you could use. Though I will admit, on warlock thing I've had to endure hours of end of listening to them rant about how warlocks as dps will be useless without the old DS, so it may not be as large as it seems.
I don't really think it's totally working as intended yet for all tanking classes. It was broken a bit for warriors, now it seems to be in place again. I haven't spoken to Druid or Paladin tanks so I don't know how they're faring, they may be able to comment though. I suppose it is definitely reasonable enough to assume they'll get that working properly before it goes live, though, but like the rest of the speculation, we've got little idea how that patch will really work or function because the current beta build is so far off.
Edit: Relevant section of blue post: "One change we made recently is baking in the old bonus from Blessing of Salvation into tanking forms. Up until now you were pretty much just doing without the old Salv because there was no way to replace it, and many raiding guilds will tell you that buff is (was) mandatory. Now you get it for free."
I really don't know what he's saying here. Is he saying that they've increased threat multipliers on defensive stance, righteous fury, etc.? Because that doesn't seem to be the case; they've increased the base threat, but not beyond what you could get through talents. Is he talking about what they expect players to put out with appropriate gear and the new skills? It's just not clear to me at all, because I haven't seen anything that suggests a default threat enhancement for tanking-specced characters.
It was definitely a default threat boost for warriors in Defensive Stance. It was completely nun-functional for a while, even after they made that post. But then a certain build it just changed - and I could feel it. I'm not sure what they tacked it into for Paladins - maybe righteous fury? So it's going to be like 120% threat generation when active, rather than 90? Don't really know how the multipliers all interact in that regard. Same goes for druids. Warriors were generating 49.5% extra threat before with Defiance+Defensive stance (1.30% * 1.15%), as opposed to just 1.45% - so it's kind of unknown if we're getting that extra 4.5% in there too, or if that washed out with these changes.
It was definitely a default threat boost for warriors in Defensive Stance. It was completely nun-functional for a while, even after they made that post. But then a certain build it just changed - and I could feel it. I'm not sure what they tacked it into for Paladins - maybe righteous fury? So it's going to be like 120% threat generation when active, rather than 90? Don't really know how the multipliers all interact in that regard. Same goes for druids. Warriors were generating 49.5% extra threat before with Defiance+Defensive stance (1.30% * 1.15%), as opposed to just 1.45% - so it's kind of unknown if we're getting that extra 4.5% in there too, or if that washed out with these changes.
That's just an inclusion of the talents though, not an inclusion of Blessing of Salvation into tanking threat, which is how I read Ghostcrawler's post. And that's already taken place for Paladins too, on live the base threat increase for Righteous Fury is 60%, or 90% with talents. In beta it's 90% baseline.
It's likely Ghostcrawler is (As he often does) referring to an internal build which hasn't been put onto the beta servers yet though.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
If anyone sees a tidbit from Blizzard on whether the 3.0 patch will include the moratorium on bear mount aquisition, please do post the information here.
I might need to double up my team's bear mount runs in ZA for the next few weeks to make sure the whole team has one if that is going to be all the time we have left.
No... I just didn't cover that part of the post too. Warriors gained the effect of Salvation in there somewhere, and I don't know how exactly or what the multipliers are working off of. Either they made Defensive stance grant 30% + 15% + 30% extra threat (75%? and how does that compare to the old way - 49.5% extra threat from being prot spec in Defensive Stance, and then DPS is generating 30% less, also multiplicatively with their own talents, thus, what would our new multiplier be set at?). It's something that I haven't really seen worked out at all, but it is there right now for warriors to a degree, definitely beyond just baseline Defiance.
08/26/08, 7:08 AM
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