I think by and large the winged model is superior, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to have a couple of epic length dungeons with better loot. 2 long dungeons and a dozen winged dungeons really would strike a good balance. Pre-nerfed 5-man Scholomance was a beautiful thing if you rolled in there with a good group.

Rather than the totally split design - Auchindoun-esque - would it not be possible to design BRD-style instances with a bit more direction to them? The major flaw with BRD was that it was too big and too hard to navigate the first few times you entered, which might have been cool from a "we're exploring!" viewpoint but really grated when going through with a PuG and you just wanted to get your quests done and get out - but your tank got lost or whatever.

Instead a slightly more streamlined model with more clear indications of where one should be going - but still giving options to wander off and to have the kind of "feel" of a proper underground city like BRD had - might strike a balance that would interest everyone, both the people who just want to get in, get their loot and get out and the people who loved BRD simply because of its sprawling nature.

Not only does this make sense from a "we've got great content that only a relative handful of people have seen" point of view, it also answers the "how are more people going to be the Corrupted Ashbringer?" question that will be popping up sooner or later.

Frankly, they don't even need to move it to Northrend, just pull a "do over" on the Scourge invasion and make it part of the expansion. You'll get some "lollore! this already happened!" people in the forums, but you'll get a lot more people who are just estatic to try the content.

Awww yeah - someone posted videos of a lot of the panels:
YouTube - Blizzcon 2007 - Dungeons & Raids Panel 7/7
First question there is me (so you too can see the exact wording on the Sunwell stuff). Whee!

Given that Naxxramas was originally a fortress in Northrend before the Lich King pimped it out and gave it to Kel'Thuzad, it makes perfect sense.

The only question is who the final boss will be, or if they'll just pretend there's no time differential.

Perhaps Doom Lord Kel'Thuzad? as when you turned his ashes in....

But if they reuse it as Northrend early raid content they could keep almost all of it the same... except scaling up the levels and nerfing the values of some boss abilities, 4HM will be abit tricky and the only really good way of getting round it would be to really nerf the mark system it has =/

Well that makes one of you. I'm pretty sure a very sizable portion of the raiding community curses the timing of Naxxramas / TBC. That dungeon is the coolest thing ever, and it just didn't get its due. I would have no problem at all if they took the easy route and simply retuned it for 25 players, and said "oh yeah, that earlier thing didn't really happen." Whatever lets me experience that dungeon, I'm fine with!

The fact that he would have to regather his energy sounds like the best justification for reducing his difficulty to 25-man level I've heard yet. If it's already built into the lore, then so much the better.

Yeah, exactly. Retune for 25man with some broad fuck-up tolerance ranges, rename all the bosses (because the original razuvious or whatever is re-un-dead right?) and bam, a dungeon. They could even reuse Tier 3 graphics.

Yippie Yeah !

And about lore and dying. Remember what Azuregos said in the blue Ahn'Qiraj Quest Chain ? He claimed to be killed all the time and would spend most likely every hour as a ghost, if he actually kept that thing he turned into that fish.

Also Blizzard made encounters which are impossible to do without anyone dying (Vaelastrasz) oder warlock rituals...

So death and lore is somehow undefined. I think it has more the logic of a cartoon over all. Perhabs they should change the text from. XY is dead to XY is defeated

Yep - and DM got it right. Connected inside, but with several different entrances (some requiring keys). Also, each individual wing is more complex than a corridor. Heck, even if it's juat a courtyard you can skirt one side of, skipping a few trash packs, it *feels* more nonlinear.

How they got from the near-perfect winged designs of DM and Stratholme to the "four tiny non-branching corridors with no connection to each other" system we have today is beyond comprehension.

Did any of them touch on protection warrior solo/pvp viability? Or how they plan to make them useful when not tanking?

The answer was basically "learn to daily quest". The point was hammered down time and again - all classes are designed to be viable in all aspects of the game, but not all specs will necessarily be.

In full t5, a flask, stamina food, Ironshield potions and improved lay on hands, his Unbalancing was hitting me for 11-13k.

I believe the direct quote was something along the lines of:

"Spec for what you enjoy most."

In other words, protection Warriors go with PVE content. Arms Warriors go with PVP content, and if you enjoy DPS as a Warrior in PVE, that's what Fury is for.

Also, there will be a lot more daily quests, including profession-related quests. Part of the reason the existing ones pall is because there's comparatively few of them. Once there's 20 or 30 in the game, doing your 10 per day to get your guaranteed minimum income should be diverse and rewarding for all specs. They explicitly said that the dailies were intended to give a guaranteed income sufficient for repairs/consumables, and thus cut the legs out from under the gold farmers.

In that vein, I wouldn't be surprised to see much much less gold dropping from mobs in future patches and in the expansion. Gold income will be homogenised via the dailies system, and it won't be possible to get huge amounts by botting / grinding. That thus tackles the gold selling issue both from the supply and demand ends.

Oddly enough, I think that's partly player pressure. Of the expansion 5-man instances currently the Coilfang instances are probably the ones closest in overall design to Dire Maul, while they're still not the same design, each of them sports a fair few "Pick your own trash" areas... They're also the instances I quite frequently hear people complain about that "they suck" and are "just long hauls through too much trash", I've even heard someone complain about the trash before the first boss in Slave Pens, while you can skip about 75% of the trash in that part of the instance. (On the other hand, most people hate Shattered Halls as well, and that's really designed as a single large hallway)

I prefer the more sprawling instances design as well, as long as it's done well. Dire Maul is probably one of the best examples out there of this design, it's winged, the basic path you take through the instances is fairly fixed, but it doesn't feel like it is, as each instance still allows you to make a bunch of different choices in it.

I think the main problem with SP is that it doesn't look like you can skip the trash! The other thing is that while you can skip the SP trash, there are patrols linking several of the packs that can seriously trip you up. I guess the theory is that we should have to be aware / beware of every mob inside an instance. Does that actually have to be the case? Why can't there be extra trash lining the walls of a place that you never have to go near? It adds atmosphere, and it makes you feel kinda butch that you're doing a daring smash-and-grab through a citadel. And you can farm it for rep if you *really* feel inclined.

Where you have something like DM North or West, with obvious quadrangles where you can clear one side or the other, it seems more clear. Same with Strat UD, where you can take either of the routes round the circle, and there are a couple of branches to optional bosses. It's all about giving the impression that the instance is big, involving, and part of something larger than the players - even if it's not.

I don't mind the hallway style dugneons, but I would like the occasional branch path with a boss at the end harder than the rest. Like an optional boss who drops better items but requires greater gear/skill.

I also really like the system they've started to introduce with summonable bosses and I really hope they carry that on.

I like having chests, mining nodes, quests, or other incentives to kill trash that you'd normally skip. I don't really like just having "random guys standing around" that you don't have to pull and serve no purpose. In Strat there were things to pull you to normally useless areas, like the piccolo, cannonball runner, righteous orbs from trash, several quests, and the blacksmithing plans. It wasn't all just a bunch of random undead standing around lining the walls (for the most part).

IIRC - Naxx was originally designed for 25 players, but they decided to wait until the expac to nerf the raid group size down to 25 from 40.

Thaddius I am sure will be alot more fun with 25, same with 4H. I really can't wait to see Naxx again, I do hope they fix some of the fights (Hi Grobbulus) to be what they actually were intended to be instead of a lame "fix" so the fight would actually work. Grobbulus in his designed state would have been awesome (my memory may be hazy here) his dot was suppose to turn you into an abomination if it ticked off, so you had to dispell people asap and move the raid accordingly, or offtank the new Abom.

I hope they leave it mostly the same way naxx was pre-expac, the first few bosses of each wing super easy with alot of room for error, then you hit a rough patch with the last boss of each wing comparatively speaking.


THIS yes please. Jin'do, Ouro and Viscidus were awesome - more of this. Same with more of the tier .5 questline. I think the single coolest 5 man encounter I've ever seen is Atiesh which was really bad ass even at 70.

I think a good compromise would be a great deal of the "sprawling" in the overworld, but you can keep the winged dungeon style for the actual instances. Too many instances are just "run for the portal" to begin, and almost every entrance for you to access in TBC is too sterile and accessible.

Clearing back through the starts of Deadmines or Maraudon actually made sense, as it seemed like you were clearing to the protected "dungeon" core of something before you ever even zoned in. Once you got in things were pretty point A -> B (that is, closer to TBC instances than to BRD or LBRS or the other sprawling spaces) but the work getting there helped add to the feeling.

I dunno, the first time I got to the high levels it just felt backwards that UBRS/BRD/MC were so open and accessible and unguarded compared to what had come before. Blackrock Mountain was like a tourist hub, just mostly empty without danger. At least the orcs guarding the Spire were challenging... but the day I discovered running over the rock wall and jumping the balcony took that away too. (Going to Burning Crusade, I ran up to the would-be entrance of Black Temple on day one at level 60. I died when I dismounted, but theres no way I should have gotten that close, or that any Joe Average can fly over at their whim with little consequence.)

At any rate, it allows people to do more or less quests to have some of the sprawl in the overworld, while still allowing a focused "minimum effort" path for those that don't care, and isn't as intimidating as BRD/LBRS.