The other thing to consider is it makes plate gear slightly more attractive than rogue equivalents, even though plate released thus far (Naxx) has inferior stat spread (and hence, lower overall stats).
I'm pleased with Armored to the Teeth because it's a great knob to turn to tune plate vs. leather/mail viability for Warriors. I've read in the Warrior thread that some people are worried about long-term scaling because plate typically has fewer stats than leather. AttT now adds a 'phantom stat' to plate; increasing the effectiveness of that phantom stat is a great way to combat bad scaling.
The new talent and optimal itemization aren't mutually exclusive. Even if plate itemization is flawless and perfectly optimized for plate DPS, the problem would still exist that leather and mail physical DPS cannot wear plate, but plate DPS users can wear the other armor types. It's good that plate wearers have incentive to wear their "own" armor type, because that also translates to better access for the other armor type users to their respective gear.
The new talent and optimal itemization aren't mutually exclusive. Even if plate itemization is flawless and perfectly optimized for plate DPS, the problem would still exist that leather and mail physical DPS cannot wear plate, but plate DPS users can wear the other armor types. It's good that plate wearers have incentive to wear their "own" armor type, because that also translates to better access for the other armor type users to their respective gear.
That depends on whether the armor difference makes up the loss in stats on lower armor items. If it does not, then warriors will happily skip the talent, disregard plate, and keep grabbing leather. It's a binary problem which I suppose they could tune perfectly, but it begs the question of why don't they just itemize plate gear to make it attractive instead of jumping through these ridiculous hoops? In any case Ret Paladins are still without such an incentive, so we will still be "stealing" rogue leather and hunter mail.
Have they modified the racial mounts to be available to all allied races? I was counting up mounts for 75 mount achievement, and it seems like the smaller races will have a big advantage on the Alliance side. Not to mention, the justice of adding Ravasaurs to match the Wintersabers gets stronger.
The mount achievement isn't going to be all that difficult to get, if you really want it and are willing to buy 10k worth of mounts you will never use. They have said they are balancing it around Tauren who can ride the least number of mounts and it may still get some tweaking. It's already possible to get 75 mounts based on what is in the game now (though it would take having a couple rare ones), and they are clearly adding tons of new ones with LK.
That depends on whether the armor difference makes up the loss in stats on lower armor items. If it does not, then warriors will happily skip the talent, disregard plate, and keep grabbing leather. It's a binary problem which I suppose they could tune perfectly, but it begs the question of why don't they just itemize plate gear to make it attractive instead of jumping through these ridiculous hoops? In any case Ret Paladins are still without such an incentive, so we will still be "stealing" rogue leather and hunter mail.
Flyingtoastr did some calculations in the Ret DPS thread comparing Shaman tier gear to Paladin tier gear. The results favored the paladin plate. If the non-set items are itemized similarly, that should hold true for them as well.
Mainly it's because BoK + Div. Str make Str a much stronger DPS stat than equivalent AP.
I did it last night in a group with level 72 & 75 Feral Druids, a 79 Prot Warrior and a 79 Deathknight. It's fairly trivial to achieve (the trick being, don't kill any whelps until you've popped more than 50 eggs), we just gathered them all up on one Druid, and when we had a crapton gathered, just AoE'd them down. You get a suffix title, "Jenkins".
I'm a paladin, but I have 10k AC from plate while using a 2H. If Fury warriors have roughly the same AC, they'd gain 75 Str from that talent.
For comparison, I currently have 560 Str in that gear, and that's with +10% Str from a 5 point talent. The fury talent is a solid DPS talent for the point cost.
We'll have to see when comparing it to the stats we'd pick up by using leather instead of plate.
The original post I was responding to was that warriors would now rather take that talent and use plate with less dps stats, instead of skipping the talent and decking themselves out in leather which likely has much better stats than equal ilvl plate.
The fact that it's first tier Fury also leads you to believe it's there for Arms and Prot to pick up. It doesn't really fit perfectly into a deep Fury spec either. They need to free up some points in the Fury tree to wedge this new talent into deep fury builds.
EDIT: It was also no doubt put in to compensate for taking out justified killing, which was a little too deep in arms for prot to realistically grab it. Now they put in a talent that every spec might like. Which is cool.
Of course it's attractive to all specs - especially Protection. It doesn't take a lengthy analysis to determine that an Armor -> AP/SBV talent is good for a spec which maximises Armor and relies on AP/SBV for scaling threat. To refer back to my initial statement; it encourages DPS Warriors to wear plate over leather. To bluntly state, "No it doesn't. DPS Warriors will skip the talent and continue to use leather" is more than just a preliminary assumption.
I'll pick two random pieces of Leather & Plate (without sockets to balance the equation a little) to draw a comparison.
I know that the stat weighting on each item will effect the choice in the longterm, but for now, i'm just trying to focus on the raw AP gain.
If a Warrior were to equip the Plate chest, he would end up with 234AP from that single item, as opposed to the 132AP from the Leather chest. Also consider that the STR gained from the Plate chest is contributing to total STR/AP, which in turn contributes to %-based modifiers such as Improved Berserker Stance, Strength of Arms, Vitality and Blessing of Kings. Reasonable gap, but enough to disregard the stat variance between the two items?
Using this filter, we can conclude that a Naxx geared Fury Warrior with MOTW will have approximately 14260 Armor (rounded down); resulting in a passive 107 STR increase from gear alone.
Now I'm not arguing that this is certainly better than wearing leather, but it's certainly something that needs to be considered when drawing comparisons.
If a Warrior were to equip the Plate chest, he would end up with 234AP from that single item, as opposed to the 132AP from the Leather chest.
If you're going to add the str from armor, do it to both items. The Leather BP is worth 140 AP.
The Plate BP is worth 268 stat points, the leather is worth 292. In this particular case, the Plate BP has a perfect set of Fury warrior TG stats, making the Plate better. However, put hit, crit or expertise as a significant portion of a piece of Leather's budget and it'll win out. It's getting there, but it's not quite good enough. However, to make it good enough, the talent would be extremely overpowered as far as talents go.
Whoops, sorry, I (somehow) forgot to factor the Armor into the leather piece. Friday mornings at work.
Something i also meant to include in my previous post; is that we can only hope that Blizzard doesn't discourage the Plate Wearers by stacking great TG stats on Leather gear and vice versa. As you stated, this is a great example that they're really trying hard to itemise appropriately this time 'round.
- Blizzard can itemize the leather well (for fury warriors) and the plate poorly and surprise surprise the leather will be better!
- If Blizzard itemizes both items equally this talent will make the plate better for the warriors
- If Blizzard itemizes the plate batter than the leather the warriors would be wearing the plate anyways but they're certainly not going to complain about a bit of free strength
Obviously Blizzard can screw it up. They could put all the perfect fury warrior stats on cloth gear and itemize all the plate for holydins and we'd see warriors running around in dresses. (Okay, that would be really funny, but obviously hyperbole.)
This talent helps them out a bit in that there itemization doesn't have to be spot-on perfect to keep the warriors out of the leather.
Blood fury no longer has an MS effect, scales with level (? can't tell)
Just checked and it's true, no more debuff. The AP scaling is still the same, though. That just makes an even more powerful racial. Free, stackable trinket-like buff with no downside. Yes, please.
One thing I'm wondering about the new items, is why they did make them so insanely powerful.
The heroic/Naxx 10 items are ilevel 200 right from the start. And that's with the new scale, which means they are roughly ilevel 230 on the old scale, if I remember correctly.
Considering Sunwell gear was ilevel 150-160, and that Blizzard stated the increase in power would not be as big as in BC because there was not the stamina revamp, I don't get why they turned 180° around and made it in fact several times bigger (ilevel 96 from Naxx-40 to ilevel 105 for Karazhan-2.0, which is roughly 10 %, ilevel 160 to ilevel 230, which is nearly 50 %).
I don't understand the need to have the starting epic gear half more powerful than the previous top-tier quality, even if it's not as well itemized, especially after saying it would not be that much of an increase. Is there something changed in the mechanics that is eluding me ?
If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !
I'd rather it has it's cooldown as current and incorporates the sickness also, but reduces the effects by like 20-25% and stacks or something like that but is removed like it is in the debuff in the image above.
I'd have thought players would be more conservative with their mana so they don't burn all of their gold on pots for a reduced effect, and have them thinking "Do I or don't I?" when popping a pot with the debuff still active.
I quite like it, but it's just not tuned right yet...
I'd rather it has it's cooldown as current and incorporates the sickness also, but reduces the effects by like 20-25% and stacks or something like that but is removed like it is in the debuff in the image above.
I'd have thought players would be more conservative with their mana so they don't burn all of their gold on pots for a reduced effect, and have them thinking "Do I or don't I?" when popping a pot with the debuff still active.
I quite like it, but it's just not tuned right yet...
This would really not solve the problem of chainchugging during bosses. Everyone concerned about their maximum output (and thus, mana regen), will keep chaining the pots untill the debuff reduces their effectivity to zero. Taking over 4-5 pots per fight (which would be the case in 20-25% reduction per use) already requires a >10 minute fight, which is not very common and often offers some time to regen anyway.
One thing I'm wondering about the new items, is why they did make them so insanely powerful.
The heroic/Naxx 10 items are ilevel 200 right from the start. And that's with the new scale, which means they are roughly ilevel 230 on the old scale, if I remember correctly.
Considering Sunwell gear was ilevel 150-160, and that Blizzard stated the increase in power would not be as big as in BC because there was not the stamina revamp, I don't get why they turned 180° around and made it in fact several times bigger (ilevel 96 from Naxx-40 to ilevel 105 for Karazhan-2.0, which is roughly 10 %, ilevel 160 to ilevel 230, which is nearly 50 %).
I don't understand the need to have the starting epic gear half more powerful than the previous top-tier quality, even if it's not as well itemized, especially after saying it would not be that much of an increase. Is there something changed in the mechanics that is eluding me ?
From the look, its a gear reset plain and simple. THey don't want people using sunwell gear in their new raids. Also as people level they like getting upgrades. BC was easy to get upgrades due to the Sta change. This time around they needed to inflate the item budget so that people in full badge/pvp/sunwell gear still had things they WANTED as they leveled.
From the look, its a gear reset plain and simple. THey don't want people using sunwell gear in their new raids. Also as people level they like getting upgrades. BC was easy to get upgrades due to the Sta change. This time around they needed to inflate the item budget so that people in full badge/pvp/sunwell gear still had things they WANTED as they leveled.
Well, I do understand the need for gear reset.
But I don't understand why they had to bypass the "reset treshold", should I say, by so much.
Even with a "mere" ilevel 180 in herocis, it would still be quite above Sunwell gear, and act as a gear reset.
But ilevel 230 seems like large overkill, that's roughly the same difference, both percentage-based and in absolute number of level, than between Naxx-40 and Black Temple.
I fail to understand the reason for such a large difference, and so I wonder if some hidden/not-well-known mechanics made it required - I would be a bit surprised and quite disappointed if there was none and it was only gear inflation for the sake of puting big numbers and make noobie Joe all warm, fuzzy and powerful seeing zero everywhere in his character sheet.
If violence doesn't solve your problem...
... you simply haven't been violent enough !
Isn't it mostly because Blizzard said they wanted to reward Raiders more in Wrath? I faintly remember reading a blue post that said that rewards for raiders were not good enough from what they had hoped, so giving even entry level epics a big boost in power seems to point in that direction.
Considering Sunwell gear was ilevel 150-160, and that Blizzard stated the increase in power would not be as big as in BC because there was not the stamina revamp,
They made that statement in regards to upgrading existing gear from early quest greens at level 70. They weren't speculating on the power of end-game loot, and at no point did they suggest that TBC raid loot would carry you straight into the second or third tier of Wrath raiding. In fact, they stated that they were pretty happy with the itemization curve in TBC, which had the same issue of old-world loot being significantly obsolete when compared to entry-level raid loot.
09/18/08, 3:40 PM
Similar Threads
