Furion, I think you're overreacting, especially with your suggestion that their behavior is anywhere approaching fraudulent.

There's always going to be someone out there with a non-zero amount of honor who is going to feel cheated regardless of how early or late they announced it.

When they announced the arena points reset, they never confirmed anything about honor either way, only that it was "under discussion" (as most things are). We never had any grounds to assume they would or wouldn't, since the lack of a reset going from 60 to 70 is hardly indicative given that the honor system was only weeks old at the time.

It would solve the problem. Somewhat amusingly, a rep-based system could have worked fine for Magister's, since a full clear plus the quest chain puts you very close to honoured anyway.

The problem with the system initially was that the rep grinds were in no way consistent or intuitive. Take HH / Thrallmar: the first thing many people did after going through the Dark Portal was to do a bunch of quests, then run the dungeons. Since rep from the dungeons capped out at Honoured, the optimal method of reaching revered was also completely counterintuitive. Similarly with LC, Sha'tar and CE: the most efficient methods to hit revered were to hand in a bunch of repeatable mats and then do the quests / dungeons.

Rep-based attunements aren't inherently a bad way of doing things, as long as the rep-grinds are structured properly. Blizzard didn't actually solve this in BC: the best way to do some of the rep grinds is still the counter-intuitive one, it just matters less for a lot of people.

As long as the Championing tabards are available long before you're expected to grind up for Heroic key reps (say Friendly), then this system is already in place.

That is, you'll be able to earn rep for whichever faction you need as long as you wear their tabard, regardless of which dungeon the daily happens to be (besides the fact that a previous poster mentioned that you can select which faction you can give rep to when turning in the dungeon daily).

I'm pretty sure I saw the Kirin Tor tabard at friend when I was on the PvP pre-made realm last night. Tabard of the Kirin Tor

All the tabards are available when you are friendly with the faction in question. Really nice concept (wear a tabard and gain rep) imo.

It's a pity that they're not extending this to Burning Crusade factions in 3.0 (at least not according to the tabards as they are on wowhead.).

That's one of the reasons why I thought that resilience no longer working in PvE was so odd - it only affects tanks, and they are already the class for whom PvP gear in PvE is the least effective (especially since druids won't be affected by the resilience change one way or the other).

I don't know if you realize this or not but there's T6 quality loot available via 5man tokens...

Also thank god the Honor grind looks to be lowered a tad bit... though it really is absolutely ridiculous that it's still even in the game, the worst part about BC was Re-Grinding Honor every single fucking season for the new offset pieces, why the hell can't we get more then 1 new BG and a handful of arena lvls every expansion? It seems like BGs/Arenas would be 100x easier to implement then entire new dungeons. Can you imagine how insane people would go if all through BC they had to do Stratholme/Scholo/UBRS to get your T4->T6 Bracers/belt/boots/rings/cape/neck/trinkets.

I'm afraid that we'll get the exact situation we have right now - and I'm sorry, but you can't really decently argue there ISN'T a problem right now, with S2 being totally free-loot, and allowing the total bypass of all the high-end 5-men.
Of course, for an advanced guild, it isn't so much a problem, as you say the S2 and badge rewards are a convenient help to gear an alt for raiding.
But for everyone else, it simply devaluate the tier they are in - SSC/TK are being made obsolete compared to the badge rewards, and Kara/Gruul/Mag are made obsolete compared to PvP gear. For guilds still working at this tier, and there is a LOT, lot more than even BT/Hyjal guilds, there is little to no feeling of accomplishment/advance, because their progression is meaningless compared to all the freebies given left and right.

Additionnally, it cheapen the feeling of progression of your own characters if they can be so easily skip so much content ; I understand that, utilitarian-wise, it's not a problem, but immersion-wise it is, and a large part of the game is still hanging on immersion.

As such, PvP gear being too powerful and too easy to get could become the same problem in the future than it is in the present.

Blizzard tiered the badge system to avoid cheapening the accomplishment of progression through raid - it was really no fun at all, and killed motivation, to realize that you could get far better gear running Kara for badge than progressing through T5 content.
But it's only half of the problem, and if they keep the seasonal inflation, we'll still have this cheapening through PvP gear. They have to fix both if they don't want to reiterate the present problems.
The problem is that "being at the keyboard" is hardly sufficient to justify having tons of purples. I'm definitely "at the keyboard" when raiding, but killing the boss is still a requirement for reward. I don't see why it souldn't be the case in another system giving gear of equivalent power.
Ideally, both PvP and PvE should give equal reward for equal investment and success. The unbalance lies in the fact that, for now, you can get PvP gear with a tiny fraction of the equivalent PvP investment, and with no success requirement at all.

A "reward AFK" pulse would only sharpen the problem, and I can think of no automated system able to deal with the "prove you've been competently participating in the battleground" that can be both fair and not exploitable.

Is there a dps list for WotlK? Where u can see which class/classes do the most dmg in pve, so u can check which class worth to be a dpser in raids. I ask cause it seems there is a black hole here and blizz haven't decided yet the correct numbers.

Hunters are currently the top dogs...after that idk

Didn't blue alreadfy said that there would be no attunements at all for Heroic mode?

Regarding factions, most factions in WotLK do have dailies already. The notable exceptions are the Kirin Tor (the only dailies I know are the tradeskill ones) and Ebon Blade, which I assume is a slight oversight. Of course, a dungeon run with tabard gives you more, but you can do things solo.

Howdy.

No more bitching about the honor/arena/token wipe for Wotlk. It is what it is, so stop bitching about it.

I realize I'm not clearly identified as a moderator, but I am. Please discontinue this line of discussion so we're not required to moderate the thread.

This makes me thing that I wanted to ask something, because I didn't see any mention about that anywhere on those forums and can't verify it myself (I don't have a beta key, but that's not the point).

How do you gain reputation in WotLK, and what are the capping points* ?

If you take Cenarion rep', for example, the better way to grind it is to hand in a bunch of plants or farm nagas, then do the quests, then crawl in the dungeons. I didn't know that when BC launched, so I struggled to get a Revered CE reputation while still leveling at a "normal rate" (doing Nagrand quests at the correct level and so on). On my alts, I give myself two days to grind the bog lords, and I'm revered in no time...

Is there somewhere a resume of the WotLK factions that have this kind of mechanisms ? I would hate to live again those "crap, I shouldn't have do this quest first !" situations...


*disclaimer: English is not my mother tongue, so I'm sorry if "capping point" is not a correct term, but I didn't know how to express this idea better...

None as far as I know, WotLK rep seems to be nonexistant in instances until you reach 80. 80th level instances give rep for the faction you have the tabard equipped for. Tabards are available at friendly, which is rather easy to reach for all factions.

Speaking of the tabbards, anyone know if you get rep from wearing them in a raid as well?

When I ran Halls of Lightning and Halls of Stone, only the level 80 instance gave any reputation at all. I hadn't done any quests in Storm Peaks (currently finishing up the troll zone) so I obviously wasn't rep capped.
This was done at level 77.

The problem with that is that they apparently want to have an equal playing field (as equal as possible) to let ppl lvl some goon up to lvl 70 before the expansion and be more or less equal with their t6 goon @ lvl 80
Everything points to this, and personally I think its a great thing.

I just checked on WoWWiki; normally, their individual faction pages show a nice layout of exactly what the cutoffs are for each level, and what can be done to raise rep throughout. (See for an example: Honor Hold - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft). I have checked all of the WotLK factions listed on the site, and as of yet, they're extremely unfinished. I'm betting that's because faction reps and rewards aren't finalized as of yet...but if you go to Faction - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft, you'll see a list of all the various reps...WotLK factions have their own section on the page. Once Blizz gets done with factions for Northrend, I'm positive the pages on that list will be updated to reflect what's necessary.

Ebon Blade has a shit ton of dailies at the Shadow Vault.

Sons of Hodir doesn't have a dungeon rep tabard in this build, strangely enough. Neither do Oracles/Wolvar but I can see those as being intentionally omitted due to the 'volatile' nature of those two reputations.

Here's a nice post on World of Raids from a couple of weeks back about the dailies of Northrend, they seem to start pretty early and most of the major factions have reputation dailies related to them.

World of Raids | Daily quests of Northrend

Sons of Hodir have a bunch of other dailies that unlock at Honored. The spear quest I've mentioned a few pages back. There's also one where you use a worg to hunt invisible spies and another that involves feeding frozen King Arngrim.

All in all it's almost equivalent to Netherwing Ledge in terms of progression and amount of dailies, discounting the profession-based Netherwing dailies.

I'll hit Revered in a couple of days - we'll see if there's actually more. :P