Deliverance

That's entirely possible.

I'll certainly agree with one of your conclusions, namely that just most players can improve if given the chance - but to that must be coupled "...and enough time". The time commitment for raiding is huge and even worse, irrespective of skill the less you raid per week, the longer in man-hours the learning time for a new boss is going to take.

Add to that that guilds that are not dedicated raiding guilds are unlikely to field anything close to optimal classes and you end up with progression not only taking longer calendar time due to less playing per week but slowed even further by less efficient learning/retention. At some point you end up with people who, while certainly theoretically Capable of gaining the skills needed to succeed, conclude that the circumstances aren't really such as to allow this to happen; perhaps it is taking too much calendar time (and "fun via progress in a game" is tied much, much, more closely to calendar time than number of hours in-game it took to achieve a goal), perhaps too many raids are canceled due to not having warlocks (or healers, or whatever) present, perhaps it just isn't fun knocking your head against the same boss for a month in a row while different players turn up to play each raid day.

And then again... Earlier in this game we had a raider explaining that, raiding excluding farming, it took 400 hours for his guild from Hydros to Illidan. That's almost 17 days of his life spent in less than half a year. Add time to farm and add for consumables and repairs and throw an extra 50% to the learning (which is being very generous) and you'll easily end up with something like 700-800 hours or 30-33 days for that piece of progression (if you don't get burnout or lose too many players to more progressed guilds further increasing the learning time). That's more time than many an average WoW player will spend in an entire year of playing.

Then again, remember that some guilds to months (in calendar time with 2-3 raids per week) learning Molten Core back in the days and compare the difficulty of MC with any raiding in TBC.

 

Deliverance

That could be made even more interesting - or certainly different by having the "normal form" be melee with whatever weapons you had equipped and the "demon form" be ranged magical dps (thinking of Illidan as hero in WC3 going from hitting stuff to fireballing it). A melee/ranged hybrid that has to time transition between one and the other would surely shake up some of the basic assumptions about how to classify classes.

That said, I think the Warden would be a more likely hero class than the Demon hunter. A mix of rogue and spellcaster with possibly a few simple traps as well would steal from enough classes up upset a lot of people while providing an interesting new type of hybrid.

...What I'd really like would be a Keeper of the Grove hero class - it would make a great way to introduce "yet another healer, new and improved!" if the lack of healer-syndrome sets in again, but it would take more than a minor retcon to make them available to the horde; well, perhaps they could get a Son of the Earthmother or something.

 

Yaltus

Cauldrons really ease the pain of resist potion farming, not to mention the insane utility of shadow priests now in that fight.

Mon centre cède, ma droite recule, situation excellente, j'attaque.

 

Fiola

Still, I'd wager most raiding guilds today were successfully raiding MC/BWL - and the skills learned from those bosses don't simply evaporate.

However, the learning curve was a tad steeper in TBC. The "entry" 25 mans have pretty complicated starting trash packs compared to MC, and none of the raid fights are as forgiving (probably the biggest factor).


If we had a few more raid bosses that were forgiving of early deaths/individual suckitude, that'd help a lot on the learning curve. People would have strong incentive to zone in for that "easy" first boss, and hopefully spend more time learning the next, slightly more difficult boss, developing their raid competence in the process.

As it is, the first boss is "tough" (for some guilds), people get tired of wiping, attendance drops, the raid doesn't get enough learning time, new recruits to fill the raid have to be brought up to speed, etc.

 

McTurok

This is a great idea. We were lucky enough to clear all my Naxx before TBC. I like the idea of switching the lore around and tying it back to Northrend.

^^ big thumbs up!

 

Douglas

I feel sure it will come, but to figure out when, you have to consider two factors: the lore factor and the game design factor.

Lore factor: Death Knights are being added in the expansion that brings Arthas and the Scourge back. They fit right in here. What expansion or content patch that's coming up soon would add Demon Hunters? TBC would have been a logical one, as we see the introduction of blood elf demon hunters, a "good guy" night elf demon hunter who has rebelled against Illidan (Altruis), et cetera. But it's already out. So, what's the next content push that they might thematically fit in with?

Game design factor: Death Knights are coming first very intentionally because they can tank and there is a tank shortage. I don't really picture Demon Hunters as tanks or healers. There is no DPS shortage.

So while I do think they'll come, I think they have to be third or later.

 

Douglas

Huh? I remember Furion, the Archdruid hero from WC3, having the Tranquility spell to heal with. Am I remembering wrong?

I'm not talking about a current druid with the volume cranked up. I'm talking about someone who has walked the emerald dream, negotiated with Ysera, studied under Cenarius, encountered the white stag, and started to mutate, growing their own antlers or other animal parts. Malfurion Stormrage, or maybe even Remulos, not some schlub druid like me...

 

Douglas

I don't think this will be a problem, if they decide it's not.

Remember that hero classes are new characters, not transformations of existing ones. There's no reason a member of a hero class has to visibly be a member of any race that we can currently play at all. Imagine if, regardless of which faction you picked, you looked like a travel-sized edition of Remulos, or heck, if you were a walking tree 24/7.

Maybe there is an opportunity to tie into the lore that's on the wall hangings in the tauren archdruid's chambers, too. They are in the game right now, and already talk about tauren having an ancient druidic tradition.

(This is also the way I see them adding playable goblins, if it ever happens. If it's a hero class, it can work differently than the current classes do.)

(Edit: sorry for posting three in a row. I'll try to catch up on the thread and post all my comments at once in the future.)

 

aleyro

[ boundless speculation ]


Was just watching the R&D panel, and was thinking about how lonely ragnaros, vael, and c'thun must be getting... I was also getting pretty jazzed about a 25 man naxx raid, post lvl 70. I started thinking of ways that blizz could keep the old 40 mans in the game, without having to re-tune them for higher levels, or smaller raids, or re-itemization, etc... i think i came up with something almost interesting. why not just let the existing 40 man content reward decent experience, and use it as a springboard to get folks from like, level 56-68?



[ / boundless speculation ]

 

Borelgore

Even were they to scale MC, BWL, and AQ down to 25 man size, and up experience gain significantly in raid instances, I couldn't see 25 people stopping to form a raid and go through them while on the way to max level... raiding is a max level thing, not a leveling thing. That said the Naxx speculation here has me pretty excited, would be really cool to get to visit that entire zone at 80 for usable items .

 

Copernicus

The best spot for a Demon Hunter would be as a melee/AoE class. If they introduce it as the next hero class, the number of classes with "good" AoE would be 3/11- meaning Blizzard could keep designing 10-man encounters with an expected two AoE characters and 5-man dungeons with with an expected one AoE character. Just take Leo and give him an Immolation aura and it will be a unique class that fills a needed niche. I really hope we do get more than one hero class with WotLK, because I know multiple people that bought WoW just to play a Demon Hunter at some point.

 

Lookit

After working so hard on Northrend, I have strong doubts that they would put in a way to easily bypass most of it. I also doubt they would want to tamper with the XP model in raids - clearly they don't want to encourage 40-man raids sweeping the country-side in XP grindfests, and I also doubt they want to make XP operate differently while instanced.

However, as someone else noted, the new world map with Northrend on it seems to have the chunk of Silithus where AQ resided missing. With Naxx floating back to Northrend and being retuned as a 25-man, is it possible that the Silithid armies of AQ have sunk back into the shifting sands, only to be merged with their Qiraji counterparts in A'N?

It's incredibly far fetched, I know, but if they're retuning Naxx, why not include AQ40?

Edited to add: I notice I misread the quoted post - that level range would skip Outland, not Northrend. While definitely a cool idea, I have a somewhat hard time envisioning getting 30+ people together to raid for xp, unless the xp-per hour rate was a little insane.

 

Nezralix

Next on the list? Super mana potion cauldrons!

 

berg

C'Thun aside is there anything about AQ40 that you actually miss?

 

Lookit

Personally, I enjoyed the boss fights in AQ40 a lot more than BWL, although I think crawling through sand tunnels wasn't as cool an environment. As a holy paladin, it was a bit disappointing that I wanted my T2 more than T2.5 though. However, I think the main idea is that there are many people who have never been to AQ40, and who if given the chance to go would check it out. While retuning an instance for a different number of players who are 20 levels higher is no quick task, I've got to imagine it would take much less time than designing a new instance from scratch. Throw in a few new abilities to keep long-time raiders on their toes, and I'd say it was development money well spent to simply give raiders another option on where they want to raid that night.

 

McTurok

I think the only reason is - there were a lot more players able to get into AQ40 when compared to Naxx. The fact that numerous guilds cleared AQ40 on my server(s) and only 1 horde and 1 alliance guild cleared Naxx is a perfect example of that.

PS: I'm not a bug fan.

 

Emeraude

There were 16 Hero Classes in WC3. Of those 16, it's obvious you can't have them all in game, or in some cases they've already been done.

Human Heroes:
Paladin - Obviously already in game, not much explanation needed.

Archmage - Most mages have their abilities, brilliance aura turned into arcane intellect? Any race can be tempted by the arcane.

Blood Mage - Again most mages/warlocks have their abilities, minus the Phoenix, lore-wise these guys are Blood Elves, them being anything outside of Blood Elves wouldn't make much sense.

Mountain King - Warriors nabbed most of their abilities, including Mace spec, concussion blow, and Thunderclap. Too bad we can't rock out and become giant metallic monsters immune to magic.

Orc Heroes:
Far Seerer - Basically a Shaman, never got the wolves, or level 6 Earthquake, obviously Blizzard didn't want pets again, but maybe they'll get them from 70-80

Blade Master - Warriors/Rogues picked up a few of their tricks, Whirlwind is a shadow of it's former self. Blade Masters, while cool, are traditionally Horde heroes, charging into battle with their clan banners on their backs.

Shadow Hunter - Most abilities eaten up by the Shaman, Healing Wave/Searing Totem was passed on to the Shaman, but Hex remains unique and the NPC version is very powerful, Blizzard passed on making the level 6 ability available to players, I guess mass immunity for x seconds would be bad =o Traditionally a class that would be a Troll, not much room to put them on both factions.

Tauren Chieftan - Shockwave doesn't exist(WTB for 70-80 Arms Warriors), War Stomp became a racial, self-res became a Shaman talent. Endurance Aura is absent. Obviously a Tauren hero, again limited to the Horde.

Night Elf heroes:

Demon Hunter - Pretty unique hero, with BC we saw the uniqueness and power of the class through all of the Demon Hunter types throughout the game. With them branching out to both the Night Elf and High Elf races, it's possible for both factions to have access to them.

Keeper of the Grove - Demigods, sons of Cenarius, almost all of their abilities have been absorbed and used by Druids.

Warden - Another pretty unique hero, Maiev being the only member still alive, in keeping Illidan captive most were killed by Tyrande when she freed him, the other half were wiped out trying to recapture him with Maiev as the sole surviver. Almost all of the Warden abilities are unique to her, sans Blink which Mages ninjaed. After the events at the Black Temple it's possible Maiev will reform the order for different purposes, as this would also allow the class to be available for Horde/Alliance.

Priestess of the Moon - Priests/Hunters fill in this role lore-wise. True shot went to Hunters of course, and NE Priests got this weak excuse for a star fall =o

Undead heroes:

Death Knight - These guys have an extensive history, for WC3 they were Fallen Paladins who turned to the Lich King for power after losing faith. In WoW, there are quite a few Death Knights who don't even have a background of believing in the Light. Most of the Death Knight's abilities were unique to it's role within itself and it's army. Loyal to the Scourge, we'll see how Metzen explains their departure in detail.

Lich - The first few Lich that were created were the sorcerers that helped Ner'zhul open his portals to escape Dreanar, when he became the Lich King he bound their souls to his well as his lieutenants and for their fierce loyalty in life and in death he gave them command of his armies and power over the frozen cold. These guys were around before the Dreadlords/Death Knights/Crypt Lords, they were the first.

Dreadlords - Not much explanation here, the Dreadlords are evil, wicked demons that are only loyal to....themselves. Very doubtful for a hero class we'd be able to play, and it's a bloody shame because they have some very unique and cool abilities.

Crypt Lords - These guys are all dead, and bound to the will of the Lich King. They betrayed their race for immortality, which of course came in the form of undeath. They do not have the ability to betray the Lich King, as their will is bound firmly into his. Even if they weren't bound to the Lich King, the entire race was evil to begin with. Extremely doubtful as a hero class.


Conclusion:

The most prominent choices for hero classes are Demon Hunter/Warden/Death Knight. This doesn't mean that they're the only classes, you could for example have say, the Blademaster, but again you'd need to find somebody who'd break away from the Horde, go neutral, and then retrain a new group of disciples for both factions.

IE, here's the skills of my people, they were traditionally used only for my people, times have changed and now I'm teaching these skills to new people. Similar to what's happening with the Demon Hunters in BC, and what will be happening to the dark Death Knights of the Scourge in Wrath of the Lich King. Or how Shaman came to be in the alliance and Paladins came to be in the Horde.

 

• Shabadu

The only way I could see from a lore point to reviving AQ is the stated importance of Brann Bronzebeard in the expansion. They could finally insert a "Save Brann" quest to AQ40, rescuing him could start a long Old God/Titan related quest line that starts up when he appears in Northrend. Moving him from working on AQ and the silithids to Azjol Nerub and the Nerubians and their faceless ones would be a nice way of bringing him back in, even without the other obvious connections with his brother Muradin being slain by Frostmourne and the Titan Vault of Ulduar.

 

aleyro

Consider me one of those people.


I'm really hoping that they announce a few more hero classes as we get closer to launch- I doubt they completely "opened the kimono" this far in advance....

 

Groglox

You are missing the Goblin Tinker whom I think has a very high prospect of being a hero class. I could also see brewmaster popping up.

 

• Shabadu

^^^^Curses for updating while I was typing this up.^^^^

Don't forget the TFT neutral heros.

Goblin Alchemist: Mostly rolled into actual potions and effects.

Goblin Tinker: Engineering covers this pretty well, but a mechanically attacking class would be super neat.

Dark Ranger: Pretty much Sylvanas is it, although I could see some human and other forsaken taking up the black arrow. Split up into hunter and priest(mind control=charm)

Beastmaster: Rexxar and the Moknathal. Seeing as we have Beastmastery hunters, this niche is pretty much filled.

Sea Witch: Mana Shield is already with mages, but the other skills could make for an interesting, caster/hunter hybrid.

Firelord: Elemental lieutenants and servants only. Mortal races need not apply.

Last but not least: Brewmaster: Unthinkable without having the Pandaren as a pre-requisite. This has the potential to be wow's first Monk type class. AoE cone abilities, drunken related debuffs and buffs like dodge and hit buffs and debuffs, and a cloth wearing staff wielding rogue/mage combo. Huge potential.

 

aleyro

This could end up being *the* only way to get playable pandas... when asked about panderan on the panel, the respondant (was that metzen? i can't remember...) was very, very coy about neither confirming nor denying the current or future presence of panda folk....

 

Emeraude

This game's lack of the Pandaren is the biggest let down for me, even more so then the lack of being able to be a Demon Hunter! QQ

If Blizzard can do the Death Knight, they definately could do the Dark Ranger, the question is how many of these evil classes can you induct into the Horde/Alliance before you realise you've gone a bit too far.

 

Hildegard

Actually I think that Ahn'Qiraj had the most interesting boss fights. Every fight being really something new and needed a completly diffrent approach. There were lots of issues, like the trash madness, itemization or unkillable bosses.

But they definetly had truly unique and interesting fights and I personally enjoyed every single fight there more than Patchwork, Loatheb or Sapphiron.

Hildegard Sprigglespruxx - Wissenschaftlerin am Institut für Pfuschkunde

http://forscherliga.wikia.com/wiki/Hildegard

 

Deliverance

Good summary, Emeraude, but a nitpick.

In the second war we saw the first Death Knights who were the souls of dead warlocks of the Shadow Council stuffed into conveniently acquired bodies of Knights of Stormwind by Gul'dan when he was still alive. Belief in the light appears irrelevant - what is needed is appears to be a corrupt (or corrupted) soul and a host body and mastery of necromantic magic in the one shuffling the one into the other in such a way that the result, whether living, dead, undead, or sort-of-undead-but-really-just-plagued, can be labeled a Death Knight with the right to wear scary armour, wield death magic, and kick arse.

They also seem remarkably independent of thought for undead - just witness the escapades of our favourite Teron Gorefield in Warcraft 2 and the expansion (not to speak of in WoW) when he could get away with it - so having the (half-joking) Blizzcon idea of "Perhaps they attend Death Knight academy and say, screw this, I'm doing things my way" isn't quite as far fetched as it might otherwise be.

Actually, with Death Knights (even if it was another order of Death Knights) around already at the time of the 2nd war when Gul'dan was still alive, these particular liches weren't the first. Then again, there are Lichlings in Azshara, so who knows whether Liches were created before?

----

On your conclusion, I'd go with Warden or Blade Master before Demon Hunter. They all have the right aura of "cool", but Wardens and Blade Masters would seem easier to implement (would Demon Hunters have bonuses vs. demons? would doing so make them "required" for future highlevel content featuring demons?) as well as providing a greater contrast to the Death Knight instead of having "first hero class is tank/dps commonly thought (rightfully) to be evil with some necromantic powers, and our new revolutionary second hero class is dps commonly thought (wrongfully) to be evil with some demonic powers" issue.