Wrath of Lich King Stuff (was 'Blizzcon' thread) - Page 315

Njial · 10/02/08, 2:06 PM

Looks like the 30% hp nerf is definitely going in, and then some:

To coincide with the upcoming new talents and mechanic changes for classes in the next patch, we are making some adjustments in existing raid content to provide a smooth transition when the upcoming patch is released. The creatures and bosses in raid dungeons that were introduced in The Burning Crusade will have their health reduced, and most will have their standard melee damage output reduced as well, but their spell and ability damage are not being changed. These changes are being made in all raid dungeons from Karazhan to Sunwell Plateau as well as the outdoor encounters of Doom Lord Kazzak and Doomwalker. On top of this Illidan is also doing his part and will stop casting Shear on players.

Corronach · 10/02/08, 2:27 PM

*sigh*
They are making WoW MMO-Lite.

It's enjoyable to see progression in the game, and this is just artificially propping people up. This somewhat kills the joy of accomplishment, and if we don't get KJ down before the 14th I'm going to be depressed.

Edit: Regarding below. Disappointed, Depressed. I didn't mean to imply anything serious.

Ptoleman · 10/02/08, 2:35 PM

Why would you get depressed over not killing KJ before 3.0? Disappointed, yes, but depressed?

I mean, I know WoW is a social, human activity (thus it is relevant and has real consequences), but sports teams don't get depressed because they don't win the World Series or the Super Bowl. They pick themselves up and start focusing on next year.

I thought the 30% nerf was meant to counteract the nuking of class/buff stacking by the homogenization changes and the mana regen changes, not to make everything "WoW-Lite." More like "WoW-Possible."

Leaflock · 10/02/08, 2:40 PM

Originally Posted by Corronach

*sigh*
They are making WoW MMO-Lite.

It's enjoyable to see progression in the game, and this is just artificially propping people up. This somewhat kills the joy of accomplishment, and if we don't get KJ down before the 14th I'm going to be depressed.

No, they're adjusting the encounters to make them killable with all the talent and item changes. Sure, it's an across-the-board nerf for most fights, since they're not going to waste development time fine-tuning encounters that will be obsolete in literally a matter of weeks. If you're still working to meet goals, think of this as the WoW equivalent of "Pencils down, class."

Malleus · 10/02/08, 2:53 PM

Originally Posted by Corronach

*sigh*
They are making WoW MMO-Lite.

No, they're making WoW MMO-Playable.

Blizzard didn't do this for the sake of letting the world and his wife see Kil'Jaeden by November 13th. They are a month away from launching a new expansion with new content and skills that change the way many of the classes function. They have a choice of how to spend this time. Either they spend a month rebalancing the current content so that players can enjoy it for two weeks before abandoning it forever, or they spend a month balancing expansion content that players will be running for the next 12-18 months. That is not a choice.

All that said, Blizzard still do not want to find that the changes for the expansion have rendered current content unplayable, leaving players with nothing to do other than scratch their nuts in IF, grind gold or - more probably - cancel their account until WOTLK. Being on a limited timescale already, they chose the simplest solution: nerf the hell out of what will very soon be obsolete content anyway.

Sydane · 10/02/08, 2:57 PM

Other than the Shear change, it sounds mostly like it will be the type of adjustments that just lower the minimum gear level to kill things, not alter the actual execution of fights. Eventually guilds at 22k raid dps would get gear enough for 29k raid dps, it's just a reward to the guilds that have continued to raid but wouldn't get the chance to farm that gear up. It's not like T5 guilds are going to blast into Sunwell. It certainly doesn't diminish anything that was done before 3.0, all the titles and special rewards will be gone, and no doubt in a year people will be killing Kil'jaeden with achievement pugs anyway.

• Caniki · 10/02/08, 3:01 PM

I'm pretty happy about the nerf. My guild 3/6 Sunwell, and honestly, at this point, I'd just like to see Kil'Jaden. I don't really care of it's pre or post-nerf, it's still new content for me, and from what I hear, a pretty fun fight.

Corronach · 10/02/08, 3:04 PM

Other than mana issues, does any class feel they are getting significantly weaker as a result of 3.0? I understood the HP nerf, it would shorten the fights and they could ignore mana problems. But what I don't understand is why make every boss hit for less? 3 minute brutallus who now hits for less, allowing you to bring in even more DPS? I'll laugh at the first time a guild offtanks the first wave of adds at Muru and just downs him before the second wave comes out. These fights were precisely tuned and what we'll see afterwards will not be the same encounters.

flyingtoastr · 10/02/08, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Corronach

Other than mana issues, does any class feel they are getting significantly weaker as a result of 3.0? I understood the HP nerf, it would shorten the fights and they could ignore mana problems. But what I don't understand is why make every boss hit for less? 3 minute brutallus who now hits for less, allowing you to bring in even more DPS? I'll laugh at the first time a guild offtanks the first wave of adds at Muru and just downs him before the second wave comes out. These fights were precisely tuned and what we'll see afterwards will not be the same encounters.

Ret Paladins alone are losing ~30% of their live DPS from the loss of Windfury. Now some of the new changes do make up for it, but it gives you an idea of the fact that while things are going up they aren't increasing as high as you might expect.

Lord BEEF · 10/02/08, 3:11 PM

Some classes may see their dps go down as well, due to the consolidation of many of the buffs. Plus, some of the buffs themselves were reduced in power (blood frenzy as an example).

Nitz · 10/02/08, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by Sydane

Unfortunately I think the moronic minority thought that they were going to keep their honor points and also have items sell for 6k each, thus giving them a full set instantly at 80.

Hu ? Sets don't cost arena points too ?

aleyro · 10/02/08, 4:49 PM

The nerf gives them one month of "live testing" for all of the new abilities/talents/synergies/etc. Nerfing every boss in the game is a great way to encourage folks to show up to raids and push their builds to the limit, since they have a greater chance of success.

• Falk · 10/02/08, 4:55 PM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

Some classes may see their dps go down as well, due to the consolidation of many of the buffs. Plus, some of the buffs themselves were reduced in power (blood frenzy as an example).

-->This<-- seems to suggest DPS is through the roof. It may be more likely that shortened combat durations are to cope with mana longevity than any form of DPS check.

Edit: Made link more obvious.

Douglas · 10/02/08, 5:25 PM

Originally Posted by Corronach

Other than mana issues, does any class feel they are getting significantly weaker as a result of 3.0? I understood the HP nerf, it would shorten the fights and they could ignore mana problems. But what I don't understand is why make every boss hit for less?

The removal of healing downranking explains this, no?

Even if things are going to rapidly reach a steady state where HPS and HPM throughput match what we see today, the mechanism for getting to that point is going to be utterly different. And some people are going to perhaps need to regear to get there. If you were spamming rank n-3 of a spell and still chain-potting potions, and you can now no longer downrank or chain-chug, what happens to your HPS, both in terms of throughput and consistency?

And even if in the long term it doesn't change much, what happens to your healing output for the first few raids after the change?

Individual characters may not be losing much survivability, but really, healers are at the very least going to lose some predictability for a while. So, the nerf makes sense (to me).

Treesurgeon · 10/02/08, 5:52 PM

In terms of healing, I'm not really sure how the downranking change effects ToL druids if at all. I've pretty much retired mine for the time being but I did hitch a ride through some early BT bosses last week and with a few gem changes I made, mostly upgrading to epics, I never had mana issues and while in tree form....there's nothing to downrank. I keep a lower regrowth on my bar for the heck of it but I have used it less and less as my regen has improved.

That said, I haven't played beta so I don't know how other changes would effect it though I am currently running less than max regen and never drinking while competing with better equipped healers.

Douglas · 10/02/08, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by Treesurgeon

In terms of healing, I'm not really sure how the downranking change effects ToL druids if at all.

ToL druids certainly have to learn new habits.

I play one, and I'm actually leveling in beta as ToL (this spec). (I'm trying to see how painful soloing is for someone who wants to play a healer without weekly respecs for soloing/dalies. I figure that's something it's worth some testing on.)

HoTs have been nerfed to some extent (Lifebloom is significantly weaker), but to compensate, we can cast spells like Healing Touch while in ToL form. And we (often) need to.

The moment you add casting HT back into the equation, the downranking change does matter.

MatthewDB · 10/02/08, 7:21 PM

Originally Posted by Falk

-->This<-- seems to suggest DPS is through the roof. It may be more likely that shortened combat durations are to cope with mana longevity than any form of DPS check.

Edit: Made link more obvious.

This is not loading for me.

• Falk · 10/02/08, 7:35 PM

1  (ROGUE) Voorhees      ( 8.95% )  3562 3639 658747 03:01 (98%) 0 
2  (ROGUE) Allmehym      ( 8.46% )  3367 3478 622629 02:59 (97%) 0 
3  (SHAMAN) Tamby        ( 7.6%  )  3025 3177 559309 02:56 (95%) 0 
4  (MAGE) Pocketcow      ( 7.52% )  2992 3126 553373 02:57 (96%) 0 
5  (SHAMAN) Tidal        ( 7.36% )  2929 3026 541725 02:59 (97%) 0 
6  (ROGUE) Ichisan       ( 7.29% )  2900 2995 536219 02:59 (97%) 0 
7  (MAGE) Pips           ( 7.25% )  2884 3013 533314 02:57 (96%) 0 
8  (MAGE) Nazoul         ( 6.59% )  2623 2819 484987 02:52 (93%) 0 
9  (SHAMAN) Kambria      ( 5.86% )  2330 2434 430901 02:57 (96%) 0 
10  (PRIEST) Indulge     ( 5.78% )  2301 2390 425491 02:58 (97%) 0 
11  (WARLOCK) Twizms     ( 5.29% )  2105 2187 389323 02:58 (97%) 0 
12  (WARLOCK) Kwwaku     ( 5.28% )  2100 2473 388308 02:37 (85%) 0 
13  (PRIEST) Bamboozeler ( 5.13% )  2042 2195 377693 02:52 (93%) 0 
14  (PRIEST) Revilak     ( 5.1%  )  2027 2083 374956 03:00 (97%) 0 
15  (WARRIOR) Torss      ( 2.39% )   951  966 175906 03:02 (99%) 0 
16  (WARRIOR) Sehkmets   ( 2.24% )   890  930 164636 02:57 (96%) 0 
17  (DRUID) Holylj       ( 1.1%  )   437  860  80865 01:34 (51%) 0 
18  (PALADIN) Astirraa   ( 0.34% )   135  245  25040 01:42 (55%) 0 
19  (PRIEST) Crustophilis( 0.18% )    71  356  13187 00:37 (20%) 0 
20  (PALADIN) Ceranthor  ( 0.1% )     40   80   7480 01:33 (51%) 0 
21  (PRIEST) Jfive       ( 0.07% )    29  160   5460 00:34 (18%) 0 
22  (SHAMAN) Fnkymnky    ( 0.06% )    25   64   4750 01:14 (40%) 0 
23  (HUNTER) Speye       ( 0.04% )    17 1651   3302 00:02  (1%) 0 
24  (DRUID) Mishia       ( 0% )  0 0 0 00:00 (0%) 0 
25  (PALADIN) Harlina    ( 0% )  0 0 0 00:00 (0%) 0

Genso · 10/02/08, 7:35 PM

Trust me, things have certainly become far more trivial in the 3.02 patch as it currently stands on the PTR. Yesterday we killed Mags in about 3 minutes, on a bad pull, with a PuG and some of the raids stuck outside the encounter. If that isn't a sign of things I don't know what is.

That and just got done five manning Kara while some are even three manning it no problem.

urotas · 10/02/08, 8:14 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Ret Paladins alone are losing ~30% of their live DPS from the loss of Windfury. Now some of the new changes do make up for it, but it gives you an idea of the fact that while things are going up they aren't increasing as high as you might expect.

Do you mind me asking how you can lose 30% of your dps from windfury? The old windfury is a 20% chance on attack to gain an extra attack while the new windfury is 20% haste. Both increase the amount of white attacks and seal of blood procs by 20%, now available to both factions. You're only losing the extra ap from the windfury attacks. Shouldn't the dps gain be only a little lower from the new version for paladins, since you don't have anything like warrior rage?

Even if it paladins end up gaining less from the new windfury, hunters, enhancement shamans, feral druids and rogues are gaining a lot more from the new windfury. This should make the windfury totem change quite a dps increase to overall raid dps in most common raid setups.

promdates · 10/02/08, 9:25 PM

Originally Posted by Falk

code stuff

For reference, to anyone who might not be able to load the page or be able to decipher exactly what that says:

The columns go Class, Name, % of Dmg, DPS, Combat DPS, Total Dmg, DPS Time, Interrupts.

Zapf · 10/02/08, 9:34 PM

Originally Posted by Nitz

Hu ? Sets don't cost arena points too ?

Theoretically, it might have been possible to get to the vendor at lv 70 and purchase the blue pieces - I remember them mentioning you don't lose your level 70 earned arena points until you hit 71 (and that's how it appeared in regards to my paladin's arena points when I checked them after landing in howling fjord, and then later when I was 72).

Jagiya · 10/02/08, 9:41 PM

I'm quite certain the gear has the "Requires Level 80" Purchase restriction.

As for the "WWS" posted, here's a tidy version for you. It's a 3 minute 5 second Brutallus kill.

CLASS			DPS			STATUS		
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rogue			3639			(Combat Swords)
Rogue			3478			(Mutilate)
Shaman			3177			(Enhancement)
Mage			3126			(Fire)
Shaman			3026			(Enhancement)
Rogue			2995			(Mutilate)
Mage			3013			(Fire)
Mage			2819			(Fire)
Shaman			2434			(Elemental)
Priest			2390			(Shadow)
Warlock			2187			(Affliction)
Warlock			2473			(Affliction - Died at 24%)
Priest			2195			(Shadow)
Priest			2083			(Shadow)
Warrior			966			(Tank)
Warrior			930			(Tank)
Druid			860			(Spent half the fight healing)
Paladin			245			(Healer)
Priest			356			(Healer)
Paladin			80			(Healer)
Priest			160			(Healer)
Shaman			64			(Healer)
Hunter			1651			(Died at 99%)
Druid			0			(Healer - Died at 34%)
Paladin			0			(Healer)

bv728 · 10/02/08, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by urotas

Do you mind me asking how you can lose 30% of your dps from windfury? The old windfury is a 20% chance on attack to gain an extra attack while the new windfury is 20% haste. Both increase the amount of white attacks and seal of blood procs by 20%, now available to both factions. You're only losing the extra ap from the windfury attacks. Shouldn't the dps gain be only a little lower from the new version for paladins, since you don't have anything like warrior rage?

Even if it paladins end up gaining less from the new windfury, hunters, enhancement shamans, feral druids and rogues are gaining a lot more from the new windfury. This should make the windfury totem change quite a dps increase to overall raid dps in most common raid setups.

Windfury and Seal of Command interacted... oddly. Specifically, Windfury would cause Seal of Command to Proc, which means that the changes made mean signifigant reduction in SoC procrates. For Ally RetPallies, this was a huge chunk of their damage.

Liar · 10/02/08, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by bv728

Windfury and Seal of Command interacted... oddly. Specifically, Windfury would cause Seal of Command to Proc, which means that the changes made mean signifigant reduction in SoC procrates. For Ally RetPallies, this was a huge chunk of their damage.

I am pretty sure SoC doesn't have an internal cooldown so is there something wonky going on that reduces SoC's proc rate when you stack haste (i.e. SoC doesn't take it's PPM from the base weapon speed but from the hasted speed)?