Wrath of Lich King Stuff (was 'Blizzcon' thread) - Page 33

Opioid · 08/06/07, 8:57 PM

Originally Posted by Ribeye

Why not? I can make real world arguments because the one thing that is the same both in this game and in the real world is humanity. We are all human beings with the same drives, wants, needs and desires and the desirability of such a task as slaying illidan by a gamer is not much different than that of a gymnast who wants to someday win a gold medal in her sport.

Interesting that you bring up female athletes here, as it serves to show that its not just will that matters. A female athlete, without resorting to performance enhancing drugs, can set her mind to a goal as much as she wants to, but she'll still never challenge the fastest man at track or the strongest man at weight-lifting, and its not because she somehow doesn't want it.

Do you think the gold medals should only be handed to the absolute best athletes in a competition with the absolute best scores (making women's participation futile in most of these challenges?) Or do you recognize that, just like in the real world, different people have different limitations and should be judged according to a different level appropriate to them, where we can celebrate their efforts and not say "men are just better" or "women are just better" ad infinitum?

Dejablue · 08/06/07, 9:03 PM

Originally Posted by Ribeye

Fun is in the eye of the beholder, I get that, and I won't argue that. But the very notion of a "game," insinuates competition of some sort. Otherwise, it is simply unscripted drama, like Second Life. For every winner, there is a loser, and often more than just 1.

Solitaire is such a competitive game, and so is marco polo, man....

Games don't have to have a winner and an entitlement attached to them. Nor do they have to include 25 of your closest friends, or 10 of them.

Siddown · 08/06/07, 9:04 PM

So did I stumble onto the WoW R&D forums by accident?

Back to the topic of this thread, do we have any real information on Ret Paladins? Yes, I know I asked this yesterday, but I'm hoping a few EJ contributors are back from Blizzcon with some information.

If not, I'll surivive, but it'd be nice to know if they are as nice as the Enhancement Shaman changes.

Dejablue · 08/06/07, 9:06 PM

Originally Posted by Siddown

So did I stumble onto the WoW R&D forums by accident?

Back to the topic of this thread, do we have any real information on Ret Paladins? Yes, I know I asked this yesterday, but I'm hoping a few EJ contributors are back from Blizzcon with some information.

If not, I'll surivive, but it'd be nice to know if they are as nice as the Enhancement Shaman changes.

Might as well be, I am sure they take these forums more seriously than their own

Hate Monkey · 08/06/07, 9:09 PM

Yea I made my post think people would get the point, but it hasn't gone across and all that come from it is bickering about how stuff should become in a THEORETICAL environment.

Well I know MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft Guides and Raid Strategies had some new information pop up about the Order of the Silver Hand that isn't anywhere else (that I've seen). We've seen the shaman talents leaked, so wouldn't be to far off if some paladin stuff would pop up soon.

mek · 08/06/07, 9:12 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

you could for example have say, the Blademaster, but again you'd need to find somebody who'd break away from the Horde, go neutral, and then retrain a new group of disciples for both factions.

Hmm, if only there was a Blademaster who had broken from the Horde and gone neutral in game already.. in say, Nagrand...

Dejablue · 08/06/07, 9:12 PM

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Compilation of Retribution Issues v2.1.0

" Hello again, I just wanted to let you know that the developers have taken part of your suggestions, and are looking into improving the retribution paladin spec. You can probably expect something along the line of more sustained DPS in a raid and more raid utility, but we are not ready to reveal any details. This is still work in progress, so please be patient

"

Is all I ahve seen bro:/

• Fogbug · 08/06/07, 9:12 PM

Originally Posted by Siddown

Back to the topic of this thread, do we have any real information on Ret Paladins? Yes, I know I asked this yesterday, but I'm hoping a few EJ contributors are back from Blizzcon with some information

from our private forums, from someone who played a paladin at one of the blizzcon booths:

Crusader Strike had a 6 second coldown.

Imp Seal of the Crusader was changed to what Sancified Seals currently is: with the 3% increase crit chance for everyone while the judgement is up.

Pursuit of Justice also reduced your chance to be hit by spells by 4%.

As Wodin said, the Vindication change is pretty interesting, too: 15% reduced stats all around.

Sancified Seals increased the Paladin's melee crit chance by 3% and had a second effect that didn't make any sense. It was missing a few words. It was something along the lines of "Increases the chance to prevent Sancified Seals from as"

And the Vengeance buff duration was 30 seconds.

these are only the talents as they were presented on the blizzcon client, they haven't been announced as official by blizzard and they could change a lot by release

Riallatar · 08/06/07, 9:22 PM

Originally Posted by Draele

Not to mention that 25 mans can reasonably assume you have at least 1 of every class. 10 mans it's much more difficult an assumption to take, and 5-mans it's impossible. Certain classes are needed for certain fights.

Unless we're talking about dumbing fights down to tank n spank level it just won't work.

I'm not suggesting tuning 25-mans into easy-mode 10-mans at all.

I'm suggesting tuning current difficult 25-mans into less-difficult, but less-loot-dropping 25-mans.

With loot from the normal mode versions being about 2-3 steps back, so 25-man "normal" BT is about on par with 10-man Heroic KZ and 25-man Heroic Gruul.

Zzbzq · 08/06/07, 9:40 PM

The problem with the casual/hardcore debate is that it inevitably veers to discussion of "right." You see the word "should" all over the place. Raiders ask, "why should they?... (have the right)" The posts just get longer and longer as you try to play into such loaded language. In reality you're just arguing, not about what's right, but what you want.

Point is, a lot of people want a lot of more accessable stuff-- that's their want. The raider's want in this case is a negative want, the want to exclude people from wants. Instead of comparing long-winded rants about "right" and baseball, I just compare the two wants, which is really the heart of the matter. The raider's want is outrageously unreasonable and pathetic. It seeks to exclude but does not discriminate between reasonable and unreasonable things to exclude. That's how I acted when I was 8. Not saying blizz should(!) go hog wild and make everything free, by any means. I didn't toss out any 'should' at all. My -opinion- is that some of the ideas, such as splitting 10/25 into difficulties-- it's a killer idea because it makes efficient use of development time, shrinking the losses of developing one type of content at the expense of another. But that's not my point. I'm just talking about the debate itself.

And on the hero class topic... I forgot about Tranquility on the keeper. Probably since it has a long cooldown and, who has a level 6 keeper? But ordinary druids already have all the keeper of the grove's spells. Hero KotG would either steal/share those moves with the druid, or basically not be a keeper at all, except in name. Not a hot idea imo. Shadowhunter has fewer conflicts as a healer.

Dejablue · 08/06/07, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Zzbzq

The problem with the casual/hardcore debate is that it inevitably veers to discussion of "right." You see the word "should" all over the place. Raiders ask, "why should they?... (have the right)" The posts just get longer and longer as you try to play into such loaded language. In reality you're just arguing, not about what's right, but what you want.

Point is, a lot of people want a lot of more accessable stuff-- that's their want. The raider's want in this case is a negative want, the want to exclude people from wants. Instead of comparing long-winded rants about "right" and baseball, I just compare the two wants, which is really the heart of the matter. The raider's want is outrageously unreasonable and pathetic. It seeks to exclude but does not discriminate between reasonable and unreasonable things to exclude. That's how I acted when I was 8. Not saying blizz should(!) go hog wild and make everything free, by any means. I didn't toss out any 'should' at all. My -opinion- is that some of the ideas, such as splitting 10/25 into difficulties-- it's a killer idea because it makes efficient use of development time, shrinking the losses of developing one type of content at the expense of another. But that's not my point. I'm just talking about the debate itself.

And on the hero class topic... I forgot about Tranquility on the keeper. Probably since it has a long cooldown and, who has a level 6 keeper? But ordinary druids already have all the keeper of the grove's spells. Hero KotG would either steal/share those moves with the druid, or basically not be a keeper at all, except in name. Not a hot idea imo. Shadowhunter has fewer conflicts as a healer.

Yea, I am in between. I go to the large raids and just don't like them and want to do 10 mans that are challenging.

I have put out a reasonable time saving explanation of what I want. 10 man raids that are based on the 25 man raids, with less awesome loot, 1 tier behind, so I can take my very, very personal 10 man team and we can be the very best we can be. Not be better than uber raids, they would be ahead of us all the time, and at the end 1 tier above us.

That is what I want. And it is based on the announced future changes. Fact there will be a new class, people will be pushed out, encounters will be designed with DKs in mind. With people being pushed out, and with my experience as both a 20 man 40 man 25 man 10 man raider, I know there will be a lot of "chaff" and no content for 10 man raiders that are cut or chose to leave.

I don't exactly know why there are 6 25 man raids and 1 10 man, soon to be 7 and 2. I don't know if they expect us to take this long to farm Kara for everything we want or if they just don't have the development time for the majority of their client base. I do know that there is a rift and inconsistency. Kara had Tier 4 gear in it, I am sure ZA won't and development time is a scarce commodity and they haven't solved the recruitment issues large raids face.

They made great strides in concept, they just need to carry through. They still have the same problem of raiders, the minority, being done, waiting on the next raid while 10 man raiders have been waiting for a while now, or their guilds broke apart due to no progression being made after Kara. There is a stopgap for both camps.

SO in order to reduce development time and increase what content is ready to be released, develop Kara as a 10 and Heroic 25 man,, Mag, Gruul, SSC, TL, BT and Hyjal, all the same 10 and 25 mans. Instead of wasting resources with 2 camps developing both 10 mans and separate 25 mans.

THEN we could have the release of Zul Aman with tier 7, 10 and 25 man, and then next the Sunwell, 10 and 25 man. This only helps out everyone. The 26 man raiders have more content to tear through, the development is made focused on 25 man raids, and the 10 mans team takes those and tunes them to 10 mans. They can even share the loot by having the previous 25 man loot drop in the current 10 man raid which will help the 25 man raiders when they have to recruit, more people will only be 1 tier behind rather than still in tier 4 and Kara gear. Streamlined, and more consistent content for everyone. There is no reason to not want this to happen.

◊ Kaubel · 08/06/07, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by Zzbzq

The problem with the casual/hardcore debate is that it inevitably veers to discussion of "right." You see the word "should" all over the place. Raiders ask, "why should they?... (have the right)" The posts just get longer and longer as you try to play into such loaded language. In reality you're just arguing, not about what's right, but what you want.

You know what I want? I want dipshits trolls who bemoan how difficult the game is to shut up and leave.

From here on, any person posting in this thread who mentions anything that even resembles a 'casual vs hardcore' argument will get permabanned.

aadric · 08/06/07, 11:35 PM

What interests me about the Death Knight is the amount of strategy and risk/reward analysis you're going to get to do before every fight (instead of once in a blue moon when you respec).

It also gives Blizzard the opportunity to give them several incredibly powerful spells that are mutually exclusive, by virtue of the spells costing 4 of the same color rune (to take one example). It'll be interesting to see if there is a randomness to the "color" of runes that regenerate first. It would make any kind of cast sequence impossible.

Axanor · 08/06/07, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by aadric

What interests me about the Death Knight is the amount of strategy and risk/reward analysis you're going to get to do before every fight (instead of once in a blue moon when you respec).

It also gives Blizzard the opportunity to give them several incredibly powerful spells that are mutually exclusive, by virtue of the spells costing 4 of the same color rune (to take one example). It'll be interesting to see if there is a randomness to the "color" of runes that regenerate first. It would make any kind of cast sequence impossible.

I would think that they'd have to be on a set timer. So that when you use one, it regenerates in X seconds. However, would multiple runes regenerate at once, or one at a time? You wouldn't want the class siting around autoswinging after using up its runes.

heel · 08/07/07, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by aadric

What interests me about the Death Knight is the amount of strategy and risk/reward analysis you're going to get to do before every fight (instead of once in a blue moon when you respec).

It also gives Blizzard the opportunity to give them several incredibly powerful spells that are mutually exclusive, by virtue of the spells costing 4 of the same color rune (to take one example). It'll be interesting to see if there is a randomness to the "color" of runes that regenerate first. It would make any kind of cast sequence impossible.

Yeah, the possibilities of the resource system are pretty exciting. You could design abilities like you would design Magic: The Gathering cards -- simple, staple abilities cost B or U or F, so you always have a way to burn your resources. Simple frost-imbued melee attack costs BF, life-leeching melee attack costs BUU, Summon A Bajillion Undead costs UUUU, No-Shield Shield Wall costs BBBB, and so on forever. There are an infinite number of combinations to play with. If ability diversification is sufficient and costing is done correctly, choosing your runes will be a very, very, very interesting sub-game, and the Death Knight might very well become the deepest class out there.

mek · 08/07/07, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by heel

Yeah, the possibilities of the resource system are pretty exciting. You could design abilities like you would design Magic: The Gathering cards -- simple, staple abilities cost B or U or F, so you always have a way to burn your resources.

Yes, without a doubt the DK mechanic is inspired by card games. The level of strategy will probably stigmatize the class somewhat, and may even serve to repel noobs, so it's all good IMO. They will definitely cater to expert players as you'll need to plan ahead to play your best.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that the three types of runes will parallel the three talent trees they have, which will probably be broken down into DPS/tank/utility. This added specialization at the rune level will probably balance the lack of specialization at the gear level.

Rasputin · 08/07/07, 1:31 AM

I am really, really looking forward to trying to manage the resource system. The specifics are still up in the air of course but the wild variety of combinations possible seems like it will lend itself to the thoughtful player, who can figure out chains of abilities that take into account cooldowns of individual and groups of runes. To some degree it restricts reactive fighting, as you can either hold back certain runes that you need for a key defensive maneuver and so reduce your offense, or go all out and risk not having your defense up. This is sometimes true with current classes(risking a school lockout, getting into GCD spam, etc), but it seems like the resource system of the DK will make it even more pronounced.

I'm very excited to see more information. In several months.

Moon · 08/07/07, 3:22 AM

From everything I've read and seen from Blizzcon regarding the Death Knight, it seems like it will simply be another class that has its own unique abilities and introduces a new energy resource without having to go through the pain of leveling 1-80. In my opinion, Blizzard claiming it as a 'hero class' is just a way to appease all the people who have been clamoring for a hero class, and it won't be some overpowered thing everybody will HAVE to get.
That being said, I think it is very interesting how the idea of another tank class will play into the raid setting when raids are somewhat limited on members. Perhaps it is a way to alleviate the raid designers because there has been strict requirements on how many tanks you need to defeat encounters, and it isn't exactly proportionate to the rest of the classes in the raid.

avianchaos · 08/07/07, 3:48 AM

Having never seen Naxx (only halfway through AQ40 pre-BC), I would be thrilled if they retuned it for 25 people and brought it to Northrend. I can see the criticism they would receive for reusing old content, but honestly such a small portion of the player base got to see it that it would be new for 90% of the people playing WLK. I only hope that they really do go through with this.

Linnet · 08/07/07, 4:08 AM

Originally Posted by Zzbzq

Point is, a lot of people want a lot of more accessable stuff-- that's their want. The raider's want in this case is a negative want, the want to exclude people from wants.

Nah. Raiders are just asking for more content of the sort they've enjoyed from the start of the game and (hopefully) continue to enjoy. That's a reasonable thing to ask for.

The big problem with 'casuals' and raiding isn't skill, that can be learned if people are keen. It's time and organisational issues (as loads of people have said) and the fact that you probably have to leave your friendly social guild with all your mates if you are really keen on progression.

Not sure what Blizzard can do to help this. Maybe make it easier for raid groups to form outside guild boundaries -- ability for people to be in more than one guild, group servers into raidgroups (like battlegroups) so that people could raid across servers, etc. I don't think any of those things sound easy. Or ... they could make some big raids that could be accessible to PUGs as long as eg. the main tank group and main healer group was solid. So nothing too fancy execution wise but great scenery and so on.

songster · 08/07/07, 6:56 AM

What I'd really really like is for the LFG system to be cross-server, like battlegrounds, at least for the 5 man instances. Trying to find a Heroic group on my server is like pulling teeth, and I'll bet it's the same for the vast majority of you. Unfortunately that would also require a further improved LFG interface to try and avoid getting completely unsuitable groups.

Fugazor · 08/07/07, 8:21 AM

Originally Posted by Dejablue

I have put out a reasonable time saving explanation of what I want. 10 man raids that are based on the 25 man raids, with less awesome loot, 1 tier behind, so I can take my very, very personal 10 man team and we can be the very best we can be. Not be better than uber raids, they would be ahead of us all the time, and at the end 1 tier above us.

That is exactly what me and my friends want too. To hell with best loot, as long as it will be upgrade from previous instance I will be happy.

Also no, game is not hard. Having 25 skilled people that play proper class setup signed every night is. It is better than 40 but still too much for most guilds.

Tanoh · 08/07/07, 8:38 AM

Originally Posted by songster

What I'd really really like is for the LFG system to be cross-server, like battlegrounds, at least for the 5 man instances. Trying to find a Heroic group on my server is like pulling teeth, and I'll bet it's the same for the vast majority of you. Unfortunately that would also require a further improved LFG interface to try and avoid getting completely unsuitable groups.

Oh yes. I've wanted this too for so long (don't know if it's a coincidence we're on the same server?

)

Originally Posted by Moon

From everything I've read and seen from Blizzcon regarding the Death Knight, it seems like it will simply be another class that has its own unique abilities and introduces a new energy resource without having to go through the pain of leveling 1-80. In my opinion, Blizzard claiming it as a 'hero class' is just a way to appease all the people who have been clamoring for a hero class, and it won't be some overpowered thing everybody will HAVE to get.

Is it really that surprising? I mean, if they made it too good compared to other classes, you'd just bring along a few healers and ~20 death knights and call it a day. If they on the other hand were really underpowered compared to the old classes, why bother making one at all, not many will play it. They pretty much has to balance it, which will be the hard part and something wow has been struggling with since release. How do we balance 9 fundamentally different classes so no one feels ignored, and everyone feels has a purpose and something unique to them?

Cromfel · 08/07/07, 8:40 AM

Did anyone ask about the "epic" difficulty level for instances? Im huge fan of small instances as pre TBC we ran Dire Maul nonstop for the kicks and grinded TBC heroics a lot with our little assault squad. Would this epic difficulty be related to old continent 5mans getting heroic mode?

Cromfel · 08/07/07, 8:43 AM

Originally Posted by Tanoh

Is it really that surprising? I mean, if they made it too good compared to other classes, you'd just bring along a few healers and ~20 death knights and call it a day. If they on the other hand were really underpowered compared to the old classes, why bother making one at all, not many will play it. They pretty much has to balance it, which will be the hard part and something wow has been struggling with since release. How do we balance 9 fundamentally different classes so no one feels ignored, and everyone feels has a purpose and something unique to them?

Yes and no. From the time when I heard it being connected to hero word, I expected those incoming heroclasses to be some kind of new minigame that cant join normal raid instances or such. Something like that could have been how they did it, but obviously it isnt. Sure there would be need to make huge amount of different content in this to make the hero classes good way of wasting time, still it was 1 possible direction.