I've got to agree. Running around with a chain of mobs behind me was irritating. Needing to clear mobs to a quest location was worse. This is particularly true now that I have my Paladin - the amount of time that it takes to clear out mobs six levels below me in tunnels is sickening (unless they happen to be all melee mobs, preferably with fast attack speeds)

I can see how flying mounts would be irritating for explorers and roleplayers, but it's a gigantic gameplay improvement for the rest of us. Let's face it. By this point, we're level 70. We're going and clearing out the demonic presences in Medivh's tower, we're killing the high king of the ogres, we're taking out all of the powers of Outland...do we really need to waste time killing level 61 fel orcs to get to Shattered Halls?

The trash inside the instance is what keeps you from "just walking into the enemy's lair." That's what it's there for. Do we really need to be harassed by nuisance mobs outside the instance, too? Would Gruul's Lair have been popular if you'd actually had to fight your way through all of those stupid ogre camps in front of it to get there?


I will adimt, though, that it did make quests ridiculously easy. (Doing ten+ quests an hour was probably not intended.) I'd rather that they just add "Kill X mobs and kill Wing Commander Sarannis" or whoever in order to prevent the paratrooping problem than stick every single quest mob in a multi-level bunker.

I do hope that the netherstorm/shadowmoon valley equivilant zones in WOTLK (aka zones where alot of people probably have a flying mount already) are designed with this in mind.

They could think of some innovations to make it not really viable to fly (even if you can). But.. a whole zone of monstrous kaliris might be a bit of an extreme thing to do as well :s

Everything hard in WOTLK could conceivably be underground/in-mountain/in-glacier, which makes it naturally safe I think. If ruins of azjol-nerub isn't majority underground zone there'll be hell to pay.

Well its Northrend... you'ld expect there to be blizzards and storms and really bad weather in general.. im sure an effect of periodic weather like that could be to slow mount speed or simply lower the maximum barrier at which you can fly, perhaps you will take damage while flying through it etc...

There are many ways to make manual flight more involved rather than a quicker way to afk when traveling from one end of the continent to the other.

Having said that, flying mounts... personally during the rush to 70 at the start of TBC, getting my flight form was -awsome-, however most of the time I used a normal mount due to the speed restriction.

I tended to not use flying that often in questing but sometimes the instant flight is really quite handy. On my rogue I power grinded to 70 and just used flying mount for pretty much everything past nagrand and it was.. easier... I had done with the experience and now I just wanted to get it over with, and this is what the mount allowed me to do.


In ending, normal flying mounts are ok, the slower speed gives you a choice of bypassing some content slowly or having to run through the content but faster, the epic flying mounts however completly change this and for the worse personally.


Oh and I quite potently remember how disapointed people were when they first got their normal flying mount, so perhaps having a heavily reduced speed would allow normal mounts to remain viable and content skipping to be minimal.

By no means am I arguing that flying mounts arent convenient, I agree that in their own way, they add a fun little meta-game to WoW. They give people willing to dump vast amounts of money a way to sort of "individualize" themselves; they offer a quick escape from any PvP situation where you are outnumbered/outgeared/etc; they vastly speed up the finishing of cash quests once you've hit 70; they help immensely with farming mineral and herb nodes and cut out the risk of traveling large distances in the game world.

Deep down in my mind though, I truly believe that most of these spiffy little things are actually a step in the wrong direction for this game. Like many other developments that were implemented in TBC, they are a tool to put (imo) far too much convenience at the hands of players. Before you yell at me that there is "no such thing as too much convenience" I really have to beg to differ. I'm one of those crazy people who thinks that the pleasure derived from any venture isnt the reward of that venture, its the path to get that reward. I'm not going to go too far into it, but I'll offer a quick example:

Currently, by logging on to the PTR, you can access characters of any class with full gladiator and tier 6 gear, more or less the best the game has to offer, all for free. My point is that most people continue to play on their own characters, despite the presence of "easy epics" within their immediate grasp, and the reasoning behind that is what I said earlier. It's not "fun" to just have the best gear in the game; at least no more "fun" than it is to have a huge mansion with some exotic supercar in its garage. The "fun" comes from the path to get all those things, the people you meet, the challenges you face, and the time spent.

The fun of getting into (old world) Hyjal, for me, was the hour or two spent finding the exact little niches in the gameworld walls that I had to jump into, and finally accomplishing something that I knew wouldnt be easily replicated. If I had had a flying mount, such a feeling of accomplishment would not exist. Likewise, the fun in old world pvp came in that, if I screwed up somehow and ran into a party or raid or something, I could very well have to put up with four or five corpse runs before I could get away (or I would have to come up with some creative way of escaping).

Anyhow, I'm not some freak who boycotted flying mounts or anything, I used them just like everyone else to amass large amounts of gold from SMV and Netherstorm quests on my two 70s. I also dont claim that "flying mounts killed WoWlol"; its more like (as someone else said above) there have been positive changes and negative changes in the game, and flying mounts are a negative one imo.

To keep the thread on topic, I would say that what should be done is the addition of new instances (maybe even zones?) in the Outlands with WotLK and the complete restriction of flying from Northrend. In this manner, players still get to use their flying mounts, but some risk and adventure is added back into the world post-80.

(oh and I excluded skettis from my original post because I dont think that monstrous kaliris are in any way a "well designed" system for flying mounts. there are so many things wrong with those mobs i could write an entirely new essay on it)

Those mobs, on their own, make me so glad to be a druid. I have a bad feeling that their mechanic is going to be seen more in Northrend.

Honestly, most players dont care to think about that kind of stuff - they like flying mounts because 'they are cool' and are a nice tangible reward with strong, immediate benefits for 'completing solo-game wow' (aka getting 70 and finding enough funds for a massive permenent investment) .

Outland was designed with flying in mind, I bought the expansion knowing it would be there -flying in TBC adds to the immersiveness of Outland to me, it doesnt break it.

Now I could better understand your point if flying was introduced to Azeroth, a very human world (human-type races, environments, architecture, weather etc) where it might seem a little out of place to be able to fly. But outland was specifically marketed as a broken, exotic and fascinating world, shattered and floating in the Twisting Nether. The very description of this lends itself perfectly to the idea of flying exploration and adventure. However , adding flying to Azeroth would very much be a 'we did it because we can' type thing in my opinion- very different to Outland, where it seems very natural given the environment and atmosphere there.

How will Northrend feel? Im eager to find out as well =)

Immersiveness is about the last thing flying mounts break.

You can't tell me flying over Kazzak, diving down into the Blade's Edge gorge, or seeing Serpent Lake break into view and divebombing into the Coilfang pipe isn't fun and immersive.

Flying mounts in Azeroth, yes, would kind of muck things up. It wasn't designed to be seen from above. Outland was, and it's the best angle to see it from.

I think these mobs alone could almost justify their own thread, utterly hideous in design and execution though the flak cannons aren't much better either. I just love it when they fly around a tree and one shot daze you so you fall to your death or land in a nice big group of mobs before you can even react, the number of times I see "+Combat" followed shortly by "Dazed" then "Your durability has...".

The one shining light was when doing the quests on my warrior I didn't get dazed...oh wait they're nerfing that! -.- (And as a side effect its gonna make repositioning bosses etc a nightmare at times I'll imagine, kiting Karathress when he lays the totem etc, such fun!)

Flying mounts were both a good and bad thing really, makes content more accessible etc but at the same time its hindered because of the engine/ai's limitations. Blizz are also then forced to come up with god awfull anti-flying measures - Kaliri can be easily avoided (assuming they dont daze you on the first hit) by just holding down the jump key and flying straight up, they evade bug constantly, flak cannons likewise cant seem to cope with flying at certain angles, etc. However I really hate the difference between the Normal flying mount and the Epic one, its far too big a gap and indeed the Normal one should never have been 60% in the first place really.

I'm kinda glad that they will be restricting flying in Northrend at least at first as it is much more immersive being on the ground, flyings just too much of a spectator sport feeling.

Flying mounts are pretty fun, especially at first. But it completely obliterates any possibility of having a "this is a dangerous place, you shouldn't be here alone!" feeling that is generally an important part of building an RPG world. Except, of course, places where you just got blasted off your mount with no warning whatsoever.

Even the points you mention are basically superficial. Yes, you're flying straight onto Kazzak, essentially bypassing the hordes of elite demons all around him. And diving into Blade's Edge or Coilfang... how is that any different than the sort of stuff you see when you take a flight path from one place to the next? If anything, a game world where you can fly freely gives them more opportunities to sneak in little nuances like the Ironforge airport or the dwarven explorers fighting dragons in the mountains over Searing Gorge.

I've had fun flying at ludicrous speed, but it doesn't change the fact that it cheapens the world. It would be great if they could figure out how to have a zone or two where flying mounts were available and you could actually use them for interesting things like dropping your own bombs.

Gnome mount!

I'm so excited about the announcement of gyrocopters at blizzcon, sooo makes me want to reroll engineer.

Well, if you choose to look at the game in terms of maximizing the efficiency of your loot acquisition and farming investment, then certainly flying mounts are a no-brainer. But I prefer to think that Blizzard has an interest in creating an engaging, living world that doesn't entirely cater to power-gamers and still may occasionally hold a challenge that isn't restricted to the instance portal you choose to enter with 4-24 other players. I don't think you should be able to say "yeah, outdoors content is farm status, no need to go there anymore". If Blizzard has made this seem like a reasonable prospect, then they've dropped the ball somewhere and they probably need to reevaluate their world design.

I think you're romanticising the concept of clearing through a few random mobs just to get to a instance portal. You had to run through some random elites that reset to get to ZG....that didn't make the ZG entrance 'epic'. And i can't see how you think running through mob X for the millionth time is some lofty quest.

Its not necessarily running through mobs in front of an instance (annoying and unneccesary I agree), its the fact that you had to slowly guide your character through the STV jungle from GG or BB/Darkshire to get to ZG instead of just putting your mount on autofly in the right direction. That would be what I call 'immersion' in the game world.

I have to disagree with you on that. I never knew anyone who slowly guided their character to ZG. Everyone went kamikaze straight to the portal since we all know when you zone you are safe.

Personally, flying mounts increase the immersion factor a lot for me. I've played since release and being able to fly and "sneak" past guards is a type of immersion all its own. They could put sharpshooter guards in that have a "cone" type field of vision that you have to sneak behind to fly into a place or you get shot at. Perhaps they could fire a net at you and you fall to the ground if you get seen. There are many mechanics that could be used so that the feel of the game is not "cheapened" when flying, people just have to make suggestions that work and hope they listen.

However much I would like to be able to fly when I start Northrend, I will agree fully that if they don't design the content properly it would almost make it stupid to be able to. A lot of thought should be put into it for sure.

I don't think he meant "guide" as you do. What he meant was if you were coming from Darkshire, you had to turn south, then follow the road west, then go south, cross the bridge, turn right, then go left, etc.

In other words, with a flying mount, you just increase your altitude to 5000 ft., point yourself in the right direction using the world map, and hit numlock. Then you can go get a soda or what-have-you and you'll be at the instance.

It's a clear paradigm shift.

Some call that kinda of guiding "immersion." Others call it "annoying." Getting to raids/instances in Azeroth takes forever, and that impacts my enjoyment of the game. There are instances some people never do while levelling because they are a PITA to get to.

While they can't go back and change the way things are in Azeroth, at least with Outlands they got that part right. Even without a flying mount, it's a short trip to all instances. Hopefully Northrend will be similar in that regard. The last thing we need is another IF -> AQ type voyage just to get to a raid, immersing or not.

Let's not go crazy here. There's basically no way in hell that flying around increases immersion, especially given that most mobs can't even target you until you make direct contact with the ground. They *could* put sharpshooters in the game, but they probably won't, and even if they do it'll be trivial to just fly a hundred meters up in the air and drop behind them. Being netted and falling to your death certainly isn't that desirable either.

Anything with the ability to dismount a flying player should give a slow-fall debuff. I'm really hoping they learned their lesson with Skettis, though I am a bit pessimistic. =P

One of the worst aspects of WOW. When they broke AutoTravel the game became a lot less fun. Some people might enjoy having to pay attention to the game full time while playing-even while doing something as trivial as trying to get to an instance, but a lot of people don't.

Instead of looking at the situation and thinking of ways it could be improved, you look at my idea as if I said it was perfect (which I didn't) and trash it. I took about 10 seconds to think of that idea and I didn't elaborate on the different factors involved nor solutions to address them. There are multiple ways to make it so that a flying mount wouldn't trivialize things. Please take your inability to think outside of the box and your piss and moan attitude and comment where someone wants to hear it. I think the forums at the World of Warcraft Community Site are suited better for people of your type.

Also, I'll decide what increases immersion for me.

Hasn't anyone done the Ogri'la bombing quests, or been kicked off Netherwing Ledge by someone doing the races? The racers shoot their missiles at any player target, not just the player they're competing with, so if they fly past and happen to target you... off the world you go. I've had Mulverick kill me while I was harmlessly mining Nethercite ore

I mean, the cannons out in Blade's Edge dismount you in midair AND set you on fire. They have enormous range and will get you if you sit still practically anywhere over the area (and if you try and fly too high, there are named elite dragons circling that dismount you instead).

Getting dismounted in midair by hostiles seems to be latest craze.