I don't think he meant "guide" as you do. What he meant was if you were coming from Darkshire, you had to turn south, then follow the road west, then go south, cross the bridge, turn right, then go left, etc.
In other words, with a flying mount, you just increase your altitude to 5000 ft., point yourself in the right direction using the world map, and hit numlock. Then you can go get a soda or what-have-you and you'll be at the instance.
It's a clear paradigm shift.
That's part of the reason a lot of azeroth instances were unpopular, and people wasted time standing around IF/Org waiting on the warlock to summon them.
I still don't see how that's good in any way.
One of the worst aspects of WOW. When they broke AutoTravel the game became a lot less fun. Some people might enjoy having to pay attention to the game full time while playing-even while doing something as trivial as trying to get to an instance, but a lot of people don't.
Riding through level 35 mobs to get to an instance is hardly "paying attention to the game full time". Not only that, but you'll probably blow most of that time savings after you realize your drink break has taken you way past the instance and instead into lower orbit. Ground travel is a very small price to pay for players feeling that they're connected to the game world, and not treating it as some sort of leveling mechanism.
Instead of looking at the situation and thinking of ways it could be improved, you look at my idea as if I said it was perfect (which I didn't) and trash it. I took about 10 seconds to think of that idea and I didn't elaborate on the different factors involved nor solutions to address them. There are multiple ways to make it so that a flying mount wouldn't trivialize things. Please take your inability to think outside of the box and your piss and moan attitude and comment where someone wants to hear it. I think the forums at the World of Warcraft Community Site are suited better for people of your type.
Also, I'll decide what increases immersion for me.
Geez, thanks for that personal insult. Many apologies for my "piss and moan attitude" for disagreeing with you.
Riding through level 35 mobs to get to an instance is hardly "paying attention to the game full time". Not only that, but you'll probably blow most of that time savings after you realize your drink break has taken you way past the instance and instead into lower orbit. Ground travel is a very small price to pay for players feeling that they're connected to the game world, and not treating it as some sort of leveling mechanism.
I feel just as connected while flying as I do while riding a ground mount... I just don't have to move in a zig-zag pattern. Also, with a little creative aiming, you can lodge your flying mount onto something near your destination once you get the hang of it.
Geez, thanks for that personal insult. Many apologies for my "piss and moan attitude" for disagreeing with you.
Eh, it wasn't really an insult, I was simply stating the truth. If you aren't going to debate a subject, and instead say that I'm wrong on a subject that is truly a matter of opinion, you shouldn't comment to begin with. Each person has a different opinion of what immersion is for them, and you can't nor can anyone else be the judge of what is immersion for any single person except yourself.
Eh, it wasn't really an insult, I was simply stating the truth. If you aren't going to debate a subject, and instead say that I'm wrong on a subject that is truly a matter of opinion, you shouldn't comment to begin with. Each person has a different opinion of what immersion is for them, and you can't nor can anyone else be the judge of what is immersion for any single person except yourself.
I have to disagree with you again. You *can* be the judge of what immersion is for other people, and if the WoW developers didn't make judgments like that every single day, then WoW would be a mess like SWG or some of those other games. Half of the "what if" and "how it should be" speculation on this forum involves judgments on factors just like that. Some ideas work well for most people, and others don't. If you have ideas that work then I'm happy to hear them, but saying "yeah, my idea wasn't very good but obviously anyone can think of similar ones that do work!" is a major cop-out, because frankly it's not that easy. If it was easy then we wouldn't have Monstrous Kaliris.
I'm actually ok with the BEM dismounting, it's avoidable, it just stops you AFK flying over, which isn't so bad. It's the bloody dragons flying about there that are awful.
I have to disagree with you again. You *can* be the judge of what immersion is for other people, and if the WoW developers didn't make judgments like that every single day, then WoW would be a mess like SWG or some of those other games. Half of the "what if" and "how it should be" speculation on this forum involves judgments on factors just like that. Some ideas work well for most people, and others don't. If you have ideas that work then I'm happy to hear them, but saying "yeah, my idea wasn't very good but obviously anyone can think of similar ones that do work!" is a major cop-out, because frankly it's not that easy. If it was easy then we wouldn't have Monstrous Kaliris.
Good point, I wasn't meaning to use it as a cop-out. Perhaps I shouldn't have put it in there to begin with. It was merely meant to be an example of a possible way to make it so that flying would not trivialize content, and clearly as I said, I didn't elaborate on each mechanic that solution would entail. When I said you could get netted, I didn't say you would have to take falling damage etc, but I'll stop there.
They've already stated you'll be able to fly in Northrend, so that leads me to believe that they have already or are going to put in a mechanic to hinder you from dive-bombing quests.
I'm actually ok with the BEM dismounting, it's avoidable, it just stops you AFK flying over, which isn't so bad. It's the bloody dragons flying about there that are awful.
Seriously. I rather like cannon dodging though. It's an acquired skill, and can be painful to learn, but in the end its a helluva lot better than kaliris and random dragons pretending to be devilsaurs.
And I just want to reiterate, as briefly as possible, one last time. Yes, flying mounts are convenient. No, convenience isnt always a good thing. Read my essay on the last page if you want to go into that.
As a raider (which most here are obviously), the fun in the game is behind the instance portal. Everything that happens before that is just time-overhead. The quicker I can collect my consumables, the faster I can get to the instance portal or from one instance to the next, the better. Besides, with flying you're able to fly over some places like the twilight ridge and lack temple and get an overhead view of the operations. It's pretty to fly to the top of the hand of gul'dan or even the top of Tempest Keep.
Oh how many countless AQ40 raids started out with priests getting clobbered by marauders on the road to the instance
With TBC the race was on to get attuned to Karazhan in which you had to have a flying mount to complete the quest line. In doing this I didn't even have to do any quests in Shadowmoon Valley and Netherstrom and only did a few quests in Terrorkar Forest and Blades Edge.
I skipped a lot of visual content and I'm kind of disappointed now too. And I think this is partly the reason for not allowing Flying Mounts right off the bat in the xpac. I'm fine with that too.
I hope the new flying skill is not a money sync as well. Maybe they could make it be rep based (I know a lot of you might hate that, sorry). Or maybe make you have to complete a certain chain quest that takes you to every new zone.
---
Anyhow, one thing I'm think they need to add is the ability to have portals in each city just like Shat.
If you are in Stormwind, you should be able to click on a portal for each faction you are exalted with, but for the "portal center" to work in that town you need to first be exalted with that town (aka Stormwind). I hope that makes sense.
Example: If I'm exalted with Stormwind, Ironforge, Darnassus and (Aldor+Sha'tar). I should be able to portal freely back and forth from any of those towns.
This would give another reason to go back and get exalted with old factions. Right now there is no point in it.
With TBC the race was on to get attuned to Karazhan in which you had to have a flying mount to complete the quest line. In doing this I didn't even have to do any quests in Shadowmoon Valley and Netherstrom and only did a few quests in Terrorkar Forest and Blades Edge.
I skipped a lot of visual content and I'm kind of disappointed now too. And I think this is partly the reason for not allowing Flying Mounts right off the bat in the xpac. I'm fine with that too.
I hope the new flying skill is not a money sync as well. Maybe they could make it be rep based (I know a lot of you might hate that, sorry). Or maybe make you have to complete a certain chain quest that takes you to every new zone.
---
Anyhow, one thing I'm think they need to add is the ability to have portals in each city just like Shat.
If you are in Stormwind, you should be able to click on a portal for each faction you are exalted with, but for the "portal center" to work in that town you need to first be exalted with that town (aka Stormwind). I hope that makes sense.
Example: If I'm exalted with Stormwind, Ironforge, Darnassus and (Aldor+Sha'tar). I should be able to portal freely back and forth from any of those towns.
This would give another reason to go back and get exalted with old factions. Right now there is no point in it.
I love that portal idea. There is nothing worse than getting "stuck" in a city in Azeroth when your hearth is down. At least SW has the group/ungroup in Stocks hack to get back to Shatt, but IF and Darnassus leave you stranded. =P
I love flying. One of the greatest things in WoW was questing to 70 (completed most of the Netherstorm / SMV quests) and then heading to Wildhammer Keep to pick up my Gryphon and just fly around for a while. (Swift) Flight Form is even more fun because you don't "cast" your gryphon that you can conveniently keep in your pocket, you just turn into a bird yourself. Although receiving flight form at 68 is certainly very OP.
Of course, it makes getting around the world trivial, but back in the 60 days when we were grounded you didn't clear your way through the mobs. You rode through, cursed when you got dazed and killed the few that were on you or ran in hopes that they de-aggro. Then continued riding past any obstacles. It's not like even level mobs are or were ever more than a nuisance when you want to get from A to B, be it gathering or riding to an instance.
"You are better than I am," Inigo admitted. "So it seems. But if that is true, then why are you smiling?"
"Because," Inigo answered, "I know something you don't know." "And what is that?" asked the man in black. "I'm not left-handed."
In terms of redoing old content, I was thinking... aren't Silverpine/Tarren Mill gonna have to be radically refurbished at least? If Dalaran is now a sanctuary city looking for anyone that can help against the blue dragons you can't very well have their legions wandering around killing any Horde they see in those regions.
Given people's distaste for Silverpine for some reason, I think the necessary radical revamp will change a lot of things for the better. Ghostlands/new Silverpine without having to set foot in the Barrens will be an awesome alternative.
In terms of redoing old content, I was thinking... aren't Silverpine/Tarren Mill gonna have to be radically refurbished at least? If Dalaran is now a sanctuary city looking for anyone that can help against the blue dragons you can't very well have their legions wandering around killing any Horde they see in those regions.
I wouldn't expect any more of a revamp than what, say, Swamp of Sorrows got. They might change a few quests here and there, but that's it. I'm sure it wouldn't be sufficient to make Silverpine a level 25 zone or whatever would be necessary to ease a transition to Hillsbrad or wherever else. Haha, unless they open Gilneas, which isn't going to happen.
And if any part of Alterac Mountains needs work, I'd like to see the Syndicate areas get it. I'd be very unsurprised to see the quests outside of Dalaran receive it, but that's actually one of the semi-decent areas of AM.
Will Wrath of the Lich king actually be an expansion? At least for me I didn't really feel the Burning Crusade should be condsidered an expansion really. Its more ofa new game entirely since everything was thrown out, and made obsolete. Sure there was new stuff introduced. Sure you got a little more of a leveling game; so if playing for the first time then you can say that the leveling phase was expanded from 1-60 to 1-70. So in that sense its an expansion. For the max-level game its just a new game.
Though its a new game using the same old mechanics and not really updated much. Which is kind of sad when comparing to how much gameplay can improve for other games.
Did the expansion make the game world bigger? of course for the leveling game. Before the burning crusade I used to pick herbs alot. Sometimes in Winterspring, sometimes in Plague Lands, sometimes in Blasted Lands, or any of many the other 55+ areas. In the expansion I kind of find myself going back and fourth between Nagrand and Terrokar forest. Those are great areas for sure but it kind of gets old. It does appear like the old world offered more variation.
For instances sure before the expansion I could chose between Dire Maul (which I rearely went to), Stratholme, Scholomance and the Blackrock mountain instances. Now I can chose between more instances so I suppose the 5-man game is expanded. The new 5-man instances are for the most part better than the old ones. So I guess in this sense the game was expanded a bit. Though the expansion still didn't build on the old end-game; but just replaced it with a new set of endgame instances. Stratholme now serves the same purpose as Scarlet Monestary; except that while leveling none wants to go there since you can go for outlands already at 58.
For raids I started World of Warcraft rather late. My guild really didn't focus on raids that much either. Last October/november we were doing Molten Core every other week maybe with a full clear; first few bosses in Black Wing Lair every week; and Zul'Gurub, Onyxia, or AQ20 whenever anyone felt like organizing one (which was often). There was plenty of things to do at guild level.
Now in the expansion there was Karazhan. For several months there was only Karazhan. Problem I suppose was that it didn't feel like a guild event. More an event for those who were part of a particular run. Sure Karazhan is fun but its more like Upper Blackrock spire than a raid event for the whole guild. Sure eventually we started Gruul and Magtherion; but while these are 25 mans they are too short to be guild events for an evening. Both are scheduled for one weekday currently but its mostly gathering, waiting for people to come online, buff, and then a short fight, followed by traveling to the other location for another gathering, waiting for AFK people to come back from their 10 min breaks, more buffing, and yet anothe short fight. Sure its sort of fun fights but it does feel like something to get over with more than something to look forward to (unlike Zul'Gurub even after outgearing it with mostly Tier 1).
I guess Onyxia mostly felt the same way but at least Onyxia was always more of a 'invite everyone online and go zerg' event. But to have this type of short fight require a full raid isn't really fun. Also since we don't have as many plaýers anymore it really have to be a scheduled event and most of the guild be online. Not saying that the fights are bad. Its rather fun when having started.
Our guild did start Tempest keep and Serpentshrine caverns recently but not gotten much done yet. Will see how that turns out. At least its finally a guild level raid event that fills an entire evening. On my server there is really only one guild that progressed in SSC/TK at all. Though my own guild has done a little and one other alliance guild has done a little as well. There are some guilds with Gruul down but only three guilds that killed Magtherion (without disbanding afterwards). So far for me the raid content doesn't seem to have expanded at all in the so called expansion. It has more been going from a rather pleasant situation with many fun guild events; to a situation where Kharazan is fun but its not really a guild event; and then nothing else. Might change soon for me but thats still a pretty odd way for anything called an expansion.
Now I belive that the most fun I had in World of Warcraft was levelng to 60. It took along time for me and i stayed in the same guild the whole time. A month or so after making 60 I had great fun as well. Sure shifted more from questing to gathering gold (herbing) but it was still good pass-time. Instances and raids was mostly fun too. However when just when making 60 I had decided to try and get the Rare PvP set and the Commander mount. This was with the old honor system and the totally horrible grind went well beyond beeing just for fun. There were several other things to complete also. Well not that mahy but I gathered mats for some crafted weapons; and grinded for Darkmoon epics (necklace and one card).
Sure before the expansion it wasn't all bad. I could really run instances a few times. I had my PvP gear; and I got some crafted items; and quest things and I could move to the raid game. However this time around it really seemed like every damn instance faction had something essential at Revered (tank enchant head enchant from Keepers of Time for instance or the +heal enchant from Revered with Honor Hold). Also as I liked to PvP I really wanted to get started on Honor system epics. Suddenly there was alot to get done with before beeing able to get into the raid game (even Kharazan). Not to mention that this time around 490 Defence was something you were expected to get even for normal instances; so the PvP gear really couldn't substitute for tank gear anymore. So besides the grind to get started with PvP, there was another grind to do instances for the Sha'tar shield.
Not to mention getting revered with every damn faction before people got tired of normal mode. Standing as a fresh level 70 with all the grinds ahed was totally horrid as an experience this time around. The next month or two not any fun in the slightest. Sure playing a few AV's now and then is great but 1k Honor/evening doesn't amount to much when you need like 90k total to get the starter PvP kit (I have two characters also to make it worse). However playing AV for 8 hours straight doing the silly PvE boss race thing over and over again gets old fast.
Thats really the worst thing about the gear reset of the expansion. Its not bad to start leveling and replace stuff. But to have to start over as a fresh 70 with lots of more or less mandatory, and totally overdone, grinds isn't fun. At least most people I know really experienced the first month or two after getting to 70 as nothing but grinding without end. Without beeing able to slow down really since you'd miss the train. And in fairness many of those that did miss the initial grinds and didn't get revered fast still don't have the heroic keys (since none wants to run normal anymore pretty much).
Suppose thats what I really dread about the expansion. Getting to level 80 starting fresh; but to be faced with a massive grind to get all the quests/reps done. And sort of having to push pretty hard because everyone else is and if missing out it'll be horrid to catch up later.
And if outlands is thrown away just like Azeroth was thrown away I am going to view it as a new game rather than as an expansion. Sure its fun to play now but if I am going to switch to a new game again around december/january then why not switch to one with both new game mechanics and scenery; rather than to one that is the same old gameplay and only looks a little different?
I'll start by saying that i am a big convenience whore and would probably not complain if shat suddenly had more portals than sigil. I've leveled a druid and a non-druid, and i have gained an appreciation for being forced to initially explore a zone on the ground. I appreciate how BEM is connected a lot more now that i have done the majority of it pre-flight, and i think that as cheesy as it sounds to me, that and experiences like it have increased my enjoyment of the game by making the world more immersive and/or tangible. That said, i don't see any benefit at all to having to walk the roads after max level, nor do i think cheesing the remainder of your quests takes much away from the game if you've been introduced to the area via the intended 'front door.'
People talk about a sense of danger in some of the 70 subzones being taken away by a flying mount, but i never felt this sense of danger. I felt frustration and annoyance more than anything. Tightly packed mobs and patrolling elites outdoors never felt challenging, just annoying. Either i needed to group for nominally non-group content, or i needed to accept some seemingly random deaths to mobs during grinding xp. In fact, they were if anything more interesting on my druid than on my priest, because it was feasible to do something about them (stealth or FF escape). For me, this made them an interactive feature instead of a runback tax that was often cheaper to pay than to evade.
As a bit of a side note, I think the existence of flying mounts make decorative outside-the-portal elites acceptable. Those don't really do anything for me personally, but i can see the allure, and being able to dive bomb into the instance stops them from being a boring headache that greatly outweighs their lore impact.
And if outlands is thrown away just like Azeroth was thrown away I am going to view it as a new game rather than as an expansion. Sure its fun to play now but if I am going to switch to a new game again around december/january then why not switch to one with both new game mechanics and scenery; rather than to one that is the same old gameplay and only looks a little different?
Well, to be honest, the biggest reason Azeroth was "thrown away" was because the vast majority of its content had really shoddy design. Outland will still be enormously popular leveling content, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a new heroic mode scaled up to level 80 for Outland instances.
The fact is, I didn't go to Outland at 58 because I wanted loot, I did it so that I could level at a decent pace in a fun environment, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The Outland content does provide decent pacing for leveling and a fun environment.
Alliance has a new Draenei base there, the Harborage. Not much changed for the Horde though.
Well, the Harborage already existed, only it was available to both factions. It still is, technically, though now there are some Alliance-only quests there too I guess.
Don't take this post the wrong way, I'm not bitching overtly about the Outland 5 mans - I think they were all great conceptually, and alot of them are VERY fun/difficult/etc in terms of actual content compared to old world stuff - but please vary them. Winged dungeons are okay. Short dungeons are okay. All of them don't need to be like that.
Where is my level 70 BRD that has a 2 day Lockout timer? Where is my Dire Maul North with cool quests/gimmicks available inside the instance? I wouldn't mind an expanded *greatly* Heroic Badge system (different badges from different instances so I don't run the same 2 "best reward for time invested" 5 mans over and over.), and ALOT more Heroic Quests (more timed quests please... don't forget the awesomeness of the tier .5 quest system.).. basically I just want a damn reason to do 5 mans. I'm not a Blacksmith or Tailor, so Primal Nethers don't mean anything to me.
I realize I may be talking ahead of myself since I haven't seen the 5 man daily quest implementation, but they would have to be fairly lucrative to entice me to run a pug of any sort.
Don't take this post the wrong way, I'm not bitching overtly about the Outland 5 mans - I think they were all great conceptually, and alot of them are VERY fun/difficult/etc in terms of actual content compared to old world stuff - but please vary them. Winged dungeons are okay. Short dungeons are okay. All of them don't need to be like that.
I seem to agree, I am not sure why Blizzard didn't put in a tiered set of 5mans similar to that of the raiding structure. For example you need a certain amount of HP/armor/etc in order to kill the bosses or you just can't do the instance. Having 15 "different" 5mans which all drop iLvl 115 loot gets repetitive fast.
The Washington Post helps perpetuate a common and pernicious misreading of the decision, referring to "the Supreme Court’s judgment that corporations have the same rights as people when it comes to political speech." What the Supreme Court actually said is that people do not lose their free speech rights when they organize as corporations, including nonprofit interest groups as well as businesses.
08/15/07, 2:45 PM
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